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Pictorial Guide to Caapi Vine Alkaloid Extraction

Migrated topic.
I've had it in the fridge so far. I've re-read this thread and someone mentioned putting the container on a subwoofer helping the particulate settle, I think I'm going to try that next. Thanks for the input!
 
doing this tek now with 150grams of whole rue seeds, vinegar boiled 5 x 1hour.

So far it is looking really clean and i didnt need to filter it much at all actually, i hate all the salt teks for rue and really prefer this way of extracting harmalas.
 
I followed this tek on some caapi tea leftovers, all good and easy, but at the final step 'Remove Excess NaOH, Salts' I observed a considerable reduction of the precipitated alkaloids from wash to wash.
Finally when I got to a pH around 8 the quantity of alkaloids was half from when I started (the height of the alkaloid layer when settled is half now).

Every time I waited 2-3h for the precipitate to settle.
I needed to do more then 3 washes, like 6-7, every wash with around 400ml water, to get to a pH of 8. I think I've put too much NaOH in the previous step.
The water that I removed after each wash I kept it and put all in the fridge. No precipitate settled further from these solutions after 18h.

Is possible that pH going down towards 8 to allow some of the harmalas freebase to dissolve back into solution?
 
SHroomtroll said:
i hate all the salt teks for rue and really prefer this way of extracting harmalas.
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doesnt the salt steps remove the Vascine? (and other Vas... alks) they are not present in caapi so dont need removing which is why this tek is for caapi not rue.
 
I see that is why you salt...


I just thought it was a way to crash out the crystals in salt form instead of freebase.

I have my freebase alks drying under a fan so i will probably sample some of them since they will def be better than raw rue seeds at least.

But then if the nausea is still there i will dissolve them and salt.
 
SHroomtroll said:
I see that is why you salt...


I just thought it was a way to crash out the crystals in salt form instead of freebase.

I have my freebase alks drying under a fan so i will probably sample some of them since they will def be better than raw rue seeds at least.

But then if the nausea is still there i will dissolve them and salt.
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It isn’t the vasicine and related alkaloids that cause nausea. Harmine and harmaline themselves can cause nausea. Vasicine actually has some rather positive medicinal properties (da a search). The only “harmful” quality is that it can cause uterine contractions in pregnant women, so it shouldn’t be used by them.

Otherwise, I really don’t see any benefits to Manske salting. With salting the product isn’t any purer and the yield is considerably lower, so I’m not sure why anyone would use it as an extraction technique.
 
hello Gibran2,

is the yield lower due to the removal of the vascine ect. or do you loose a considerable amount of harmine/harmaline as well due to the increased number of steps?

If you dont use the salting steps wouldnt the resulting extract be weaker than a pure harmine/harmaline extract, or do the Vascine alks have MAOI properties also.

cheers
 
gibran2 said:
SHroomtroll said:
I see that is why you salt...


I just thought it was a way to crash out the crystals in salt form instead of freebase.

I have my freebase alks drying under a fan so i will probably sample some of them since they will def be better than raw rue seeds at least.

But then if the nausea is still there i will dissolve them and salt.
Click to expand...
It isn’t the vasicine and related alkaloids that cause nausea. Harmine and harmaline themselves can cause nausea. Vasicine actually has some rather positive medicinal properties (da a search). The only “harmful” quality is that it can cause uterine contractions in pregnant women, so it shouldn’t be used by them.

Otherwise, I really don’t see any benefits to Manske salting. With salting the product isn’t any purer and the yield is considerably lower, so I’m not sure why anyone would use it as an extraction technique.
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Great then i will probably keep these as they are then, rue has never caused much nausea for me compared to caapi which really makes me feel ill.

my problem with rue is mostly the taste and smell of the brew, and if i eat whole seeds i will have these nasty rue burps for hours blah.

Any idea how mush a full maoi dose should be of this extract? 3grams of rue is usually perfect for me.
 
3rdI said:
hello Gibran2,

is the yield lower due to the removal of the vascine ect. or do you loose a considerable amount of harmine/harmaline as well due to the increased number of steps?

If you dont use the salting steps wouldnt the resulting extract be weaker than a pure harmine/harmaline extract, or do the Vascine alks have MAOI properties also.

cheers
Click to expand...
Those are all good questions. I seem to remember reading vasicine and vasicinone make up only a small relative percentage of the alkaloids in rue. From my own experience, Manske extractions aren’t very efficient in terms of yield. It seems that if one were to do repeated Manske purification steps, eventually you’d be left with nothing!

I’m not sure about MAOI properties of vasicine, etc., but as I said, I think their relative percentage is low, so the resultant product isn’t much less potent.
 
hi Gibran2,

I read all in this thread. Thanks for this contribution.

I have started this tek using 370 gr of powdered rue.
Cleaning/filtering is not my best friend.

Anyway whats the ideal PH in the first step, basifying with naoh ?
 
final yield was about 7,5g of light tan alks, it´s still abit damp so i could lose some weight when drying.

Seems like a alot but since i did clean the brew so no crap should be in it.

still not sure about how much rue there was but probably closer to 200 than 150.
 
NamRa said:
hi Gibran2,

I read all in this thread. Thanks for this contribution.

I have started this tek using 370 gr of powdered rue.
Cleaning/filtering is not my best friend.

Anyway whats the ideal PH in the first step, basifying with naoh ?
Click to expand...

Anywhere from 11-12. You could even go higher like 12.5 or 13 but its not necessary, wont increase yields significantly, its a lot more NaOH that you are using/wasting, its more dangerous of hurting yourself if there are spills and you'll need more acid to neutralize it to redisolve the alkaloids later on.
 
I tried 300mg of my rue extract in some orange juice, 30mins later 50mg white fluffy freebase was done the same way.

30mins later it felt like i was rolling, zero nausea or bad body load, i started hitting small hits of changa which i continued to do during the whole night.

Overall i prefer this to brews for many reasons,i had alot of energy and laughed alot.

Although i can see the benefit for feeling like shit like i do on real ayahuasca fpr soul cleaning and more serious issues, right now i just need to get this shit in my system again, ive been doing alot of shrooms lately and not touched anything not being shrooms,cid or weed.
 
just wondering if doing 5 instead of three brews, thus using 50 ml (2 more brews x 25 ml per brew) more vinegar would cause a problem?

After brewing i reduced to 400 ml, let cool and then added 50 ml h20 and 5 g naoh... stirred for 5 min and set in the fridge.. 20 min later squat.. another 20 min.. still notta

so figuring i had added 2/3 times more vinegar (50/75) i proceeded to add 3 (~= 2/3 x 5 g Naoh) more g Naoh in solution.. stirred, let sit in fridge for 20 .. nothing ... took out of fridge added 5 g more naoh .. stirred, let sit for 20 min at room temp.. nothing..

so as above just wondering if more boils caused the problem (likely not) or if the vine is just bunk (it was a different batch, last batched worked using this same method of 5 boils)

Thanks
 
DudeMeetTyler said:
just wondering if doing 5 instead of three brews, thus using 50 ml (2 more brews x 25 ml per brew) more vinegar would cause a problem?

After brewing i reduced to 400 ml, let cool and then added 50 ml h20 and 5 g naoh... stirred for 5 min and set in the fridge.. 20 min later squat.. another 20 min.. still notta

so figuring i had added 2/3 times more vinegar (50/75) i proceeded to add 3 (~= 2/3 x 5 g Naoh) more g Naoh in solution.. stirred, let sit in fridge for 20 .. nothing ... took out of fridge added 5 g more naoh .. stirred, let sit for 20 min at room temp.. nothing..

so as above just wondering if more boils caused the problem (likely not) or if the vine is just bunk (it was a different batch, last batched worked using this same method of 5 boils)

Thanks
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You really don’t need much acid to get the alkaloids out, so adding a large excess of vinegar won’t really effect yield.

Most of the alkaloids are extracted in the first boil, so if you didn’t get anything after three boils, then the problem is probably due to weak caapi.
 
Alright, that was my conclusion as well.

However, I did not think i added a "large excess of vinegar" only repeated the initial boils an additional two times using the same ratios 😉. So, for instance if one wanted to do more boils as suggested here would it be advised that they do not add vinegar (or which ever acid they choose to use) to these last additional boils?

Thanks for the reply
 
DudeMeetTyler said:
Alright, that was my conclusion as well.

However, I did not think i added a "large excess of vinegar" only repeated the initial boils an additional two times using the same ratios 😉. So, for instance if one wanted to do more boils as suggested here would it be advised that they do not add vinegar (or which ever acid they choose to use) to these last additional boils?

Thanks for the reply
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It depends on the acid. For example, I think that vinegar and hydrochloric acid evaporate off during boiling, but fumaric and citric don’t.

I rarely measure the vinegar for an extraction - I did for the TEK so that people would have a number to refer to, but I don't think that much is required. Not adding acid during the last boil or two probably doesn't have any effect on yield.
 
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