• Members of the previous forum can retrieve their temporary password here, (login and check your PM).

Psilocin extraction help

Migrated topic.
steppa i don't want to discourage
Click to expand...

I absolutely don't feel discouraged. :thumb_up:

So...in basically the same discussion on another forum I was told to look into isoelectric points. I did some (light) reading and came up with a question:

What happens to psilocybin when it's in a water solution which is adjusted to the PH of the isoelectric point (we should be able to calculate this, right?) of psilocybin ? From what I've read the molecule would be in it's neutral aka it's least water soluble form then. Is there a chance that it just might precipitate out of the water?
 
steppa said:
I already gave anne's "kitchen roll TEK" a try,
................. only makes sense when working with bulk amounts.
Click to expand...

that one is tricky,
one has to adjust the roll diameter to the liquid, and it does sorta require bulk.

^this is part of why im the way i am on this.
i do alot of stuff that is hard to exactly explain with chroma mods.

the hofmann does work.
i drifted to a series of mods on all of it for a variety of reasons.

the stuff is not hard to extract really,
its the purity question.
IMO for edibles, any extraction done right for psil will get product of power.
the smoking of absolute 99.99 rocksalt grade crystals,
may be elusive for most however.

part of this , is quantity of biomass to start.
id suggest 60 g dust dry min to even consider it.

im trying to get some time to round up some pics and show you guys .
 
So...

I took half of the extract (2,5g) from #153 and tried to clean it further.

I did an acetone wash, and a petrol ether wash.
Then I took what was left and threw it in methanol.
Then filtered out what didn't dissolve with a bit of stirring after something like two or three minutes.
Then evaped the methanol.

Tests still have to be done.

Attatched is what I got...
 

Attachments

  • 20160530_075410.jpg
    20160530_075410.jpg
    741.9 KB · Views: 0
Orbiting said:
hey (steppa , others) what a cool thread, very interesting work.

any more tests?
Click to expand...

Vaping/smoking didn't work. Orally it was active at very small doses. Can't tell weights..we eyeballed.
 
sbc1 said:
Try freebasing it steppa
Click to expand...

That's difficult from what I gathered. Because it's a zwitterion and doesn't behave like i.e. DMT.

If you can tell me how this would work out, I'd try it.
 
..it's a bit of a mystery to me why some people get results vaping and others don't..am very appreciative of the effort steppa..

as far as positive vaporising results that i know of personally, other than myself and two colleagues, there was Jim de Korne (ER founder, who i used a correspond with a little) ..in both cases the resultant product was blue-grey with hint of purple..in both cases the Hoffmann technique was used to the letter, meaning there was no heat at any point in the process..

and there is the report in the Lycaeum link given by sbc1 above:
For matters pressing the elves induced me into what they described as a 30mg vaporized crystal experience. It came on about 1 minute 30 seconds into the induction. The initial rush was more profound than vaporized DMT experiences but not as intense as 5meodmt vaporized. The visual aspect was that of DMT and maybe even a bit more, hard to say, there was much going on.

Auditory and physical symptoms persisted throughout the 20 minute peaking experience. The come down was much like the downside of oral administration or fungi. After effects persisted for about 30 - 40 minutes after peak.
Click to expand...

and then there was jamie who got mild effects with a very crude extract..
either we are all mad, or there is something quite tricky about the chemistry of Psilocybin..which there is really..

as far as 'salt/freebase', as many have said, being a zwitterion makes things not so straightforward...
definitely the addition of acids in the process will create Psilocin (which may behave differently in terms of pyrolysis than Psilocybin)..as far as purity of extraction, i think even the smallest amount of sugars will interfere with pyrolysis..
as benzyme pointed out earlier in the thread, exposed Psilocybin will almost immediately start pulling in impurities from what's around it (moisture etc), which again will affect pH...and also the vaporising temperature of Psilocybin is much higher than dmt/5meo freebase etc....
as Shulgin has said, with Psilocybin 'the numbers don't add up' re more ordinary alkaloid chemistry...
so, i don't know what the answer to why some people get success vaporising and others don't...i hope through collaborative research the mystery is solved one day...
i would definitely agree with the above Lyceaum report as far as duration etc....
not being an advanced chemist, though, i'm not sure what other approaches to suggest....i wish all researchers and explorers good luck..
 
nen, would you mind ellaborating on the effects you felt when vaporising?

..a friend of mine swears he had a fairly strong psychedelic experience smoking a joint of ground up mushrooms when he was younger
 
^ this was covered before..its like DMT

ps i suspect now a small amount of base post extraction may help free the tryptamine part of the molecule from the phosphorus part allowing pyrolysis ..and that the pH of the mushrooms upon drying may be a key here..i would as sbc1 suggested try freeing it more with base..

shrooms smoked straight i am more sceptical of, but as mentioned earlier this is also claimed..
but if the joint had tobacco (or a bed of ash as some old experiments of vaping did) then there is the addition of a small amount of basic material..

but ultimately there is no reason why psilocybin would not work by vaporisation (like tryptamines in general)..hence i suggest the phosphorus attachment is the issue..

it is definately a very 'odd' molecule :)
 
..hey jamie..no, i'm saying i don't really know, but i know the following:

- acid will convert the psilocybin to psilocin

- what jim de korne, and i saw (once) which was vaporisable and 'similar' to dmt (not quite as forceful) was theoretically mainly psilocybin (using the Hofmann method) with small amounts potentially psilocyn and traces of other things..it's these traces i'm theorising may depending on conditions be slighly basic

- i'm suggesting that enough slightly basic 'impurities' may render the zwitterion psilocybin vaporisable by doing something to the oxygen/phosporus attachtment (which is the 'salt' aspect here) and that similar basic addition post extraction may fasciliate this also..

- psilocybin and psilocyn may not behave the same in pyrolisis conditions

- otherwise i have no idea...other than the extractions which aren't active have still sugars (polysaccharides) attached...or there is some other tryptamine in larger ammounts than reported (or not yet reported) sometimes in some psilocybe species (as neither de korne's or my colleagues extracts were thorougly chromatographed)..
or the elves have some strange magic up their sleeves..
.
 
I really hoped that anne would bring her TEK, but she didn't.

So...there we go again...

I still have about 2 - 2,5g of the extract from #153.

It's in the freezer since may. Not sealed too well, I fear. Do you think it even makes sense to work with that anymore?

I'll start a new approach nevertheless, but so I could beginn experimenting a bit earlier.
 
could you use enzymes to break down the materials attached to the target material? could you then use yeast (or any other means like Flocculation by polyelectrolytes?) to eat/remove the simple proteins and sugars then precip the enzymes out using polyvalent metal ions?? --> add more water to ensure the target materials are fully dissolved --> decant the whole mess, pour off and evap the water?

could the proteins and other bio molicules be attacked by enzymes while they are bonded to the psilo? or if they were lysed would the pieces immediately re attach to the now vacent spot..

i'm just throwing this out there because i would be cool if it would work,, this seems an insurmountable task but if proteins and sugars are the target the solution is a more bio chem centric mode rather then the typical extraction solvents and techniques but I D K

i hope this isn't jsut some nonsense; anyway i look forward to any responses
 
benzyme said:
what sort of enzymes? cellulase? proteases?
enzymes are very substrate specific. they require a certain pH and temperature to effectively catalyze reactions.
you also need to consider what effect the conditions will have on the charge state of the alkaloids.
Click to expand...

gives me a thought, could you use pectinase/chitenase to bust up some fungal ,aterial, then maybe use dilut acid to remove protein bonds from the desired compounds?

if so could you then just filter/seive them out into a crude, but purer extract?


I have both on hand, I was going to try am experiment in whixn I fused fungal protoplasts of various p]warm climate psilocybes to the endogenous cold climate psikocybe species here. but maybe one could just just make soup instead.

I
 
benzyme said:
what sort of enzymes? cellulase? proteases?
enzymes are very substrate specific. they require a certain pH and temperature to effectively catalyze reactions.
you also need to consider what effect the conditions will have on the charge state of the alkaloids.
Click to expand...


Good point, later today I will see if the appropriate enzymes would have operating conditions which would be not deleterious too the psilo, However from my experiences with enzymes in the past many do not require extreme ph and they themselves will be denatured well below the temp tipping point for psilo
 
Back
Top Bottom