Q21Q21 Vinegar + Lime A/B/A (xylene/limonene) and A/B (naptha) Teks

[idtravlr]

One more question. So, this tek does NOT require an ammonia wash? Is that correct? Is that because SWIM is not using lye?

Peace and Thanks!
-idt

 

[q21q21]

no ammonia, ewwww.

That white spice is what fell out of the naptha.

 

[amor_fati]

Ammonia should never be used, regardless (Noman even swears against it). The only suggest alkaline wash anymore is with sodium carbonate.

 

[idtravlr]

Thanks guys! SWIM has crystals! Lot's of crystals and only two pulls so far on 100g of root bark! Will post pics after recrystallization and evap is complete.

EDIT: Just to verify. A sodium carbonate wash can be done, but is not required either?

Peace!
-idt

 

[q21q21]

a wash can be done, but SWIM never does. His crystals are barely barely off white

anyway he still has no problem smoking the piss yellow he has from previous lye STB so barely off-white is a treat

 

[idtravlr]

a wash can be done, but SWIM never does. His crystals are barely barely off white

anyway he still has no problem smoking the piss yellow he has from previous lye STB so barely off-white is a treat

Here's a pic from SWIM's first pull off 100g MHRB. Still wet, but getting very nice a white as they dry. SWIM's first time using this tek and he thinks he'll have about a gram of these fine xstals. Wonderful tek. So simple, and more importantly, NO LYE! Thank you for sharing!

 

[Spiceman]

Not bad at all using 100g of bark. Thats a damned good yeild for one pull on that much bark. Nicely done... nice tek.. it looks like too much naptha in the dish in one of the pics , but it may be a trick of the lighting/liquid. Nice tek q21. Peace and godspeed.

 

[idtravlr]

Not bad at all using 100g of bark. Thats a damned good yeild for one pull on that much bark. Nicely done... nice tek.. it looks like too much naptha in the dish in one of the pics , but it may be a trick of the lighting/liquid. Nice tek q21. Peace and godspeed.

Yeah, so Swim evaped all the pulls today (4), combined them in a separate container from the pic above, and ended up with a total of .72g of dry, off-white, crystalline powder. A little less than expected, and a little yellower (but not bad), but SWIM thinks he made a mistake on pull 3, and let the substrate cool too much before pulling, and thus did not get an effective pull. So, he did a final pull tonight, using all the naptha from the previous pulls after heating his substrate up nicely adding a bit more boiling water to get it back to the proper consistency, and gently warming the leftover naptha from the earlier pulls. He poured that final pull off into a precip cup, and it is currently showing much promise (very cloudy, and crystals forming again). If this final evap goes as expected SWIM should have just about a gram of xstals from his 100g of root bark.

Perhaps there is another pull of jungle spice in there waiting as well? Just need to find some d-limonene or similar solvent to pull those more crude alks out. SWIM shall see, but here is his final yield at this point. Pretty happy for a test run on a new, well designed & written, non-toxic tek:

Thanks q21q21 and amor-fati both!

Peace!
-idt

 

[q21q21]

Just need to find some d-limonene or similar solvent to pull those more crude alks out. SWIM shall see, but here is his final yield at this point. Pretty happy for a test run on a new, well designed & written, non-toxic tek:

Thanks q21q21 and amor-fati both!

Peace!
-idt

The limonene will not only pull the red "jungle" alkaloids but also the N-oxides that were missed with the naptha. A lot of the N-oxides are only soluble in very hot naptha or at least not very soluble in warm naptha.

SWIM thinks that SWIY will get a lot of N-oxides along with the limonene pulls, the bark might be a bit old with lots of N-oxides and that could explain the slightly low yield of WHITE (but still .72, better than the .4 and .5 SWIM usually gets with STB)

About the jungle, SWIM hasn't figured a way to crystalize it, the goo is harsh but very smokable.

also, SWIM's anxious for when he gets his harmalas in he'll try it with pharma too

Edit: oh ya, thanks for being the first to prove the tek works for someone other than the OP

 

[amor_fati]

About the jungle, SWIM hasn't figured a way to crystalize it, the goo is harsh but very smokable.

Try a manual crystallization by working it around and spreading it and scraping. Just play with it for a while and see what happens. There are two procedures contained in the wiki that detail this method. SWIM's only done it with full-range, but he imagines it can work with more jungley spice as well.

 

[idtravlr]

OK, so question on the d-limo pull. Is there a tek that SWIM should follow for this? What he has right now is what's left of the basified goo, and perhaps a small amount of left over naptha in the good. Does SWIM just do the d-limo pull in the same way he did the naptha pull's, or is it more complicated than that? Does SWIM need to use vinegar to pull the goodies from the d-limo, or can he just do a freeze precip on the limo... As SWIY can CLEARLY see, SWIM is confused on what to do next... SWIM has never worked with using d-limo to pull goodies from basified, N,N "exhausted" bark. Any help here? :? Thanks!
EDIT: You are correct BTW q21q21, the bark is good quality, but is quite dated. SWIM bought a bunch on special and couldn't extract it all as fast as he expected.

 

[q21q21]

Depending on the purity of the product and whether it is to be smoked or pharma'd then you can do a few things:

Note: SWIM does not know the amount of D-limonene needed at all... but it he knows N-oxides and N N-DMT are VERY soluble in cold limonene but it will also fill up with a lot of other junk too.

If it is to be smoked then pulling with cold (does not need to be heated at all) limonene and simply evaporating will produce a crimson jimjam goo which is quite harsh but will have the highest yield of the stated teks, you can pull the N-oxides off of it to leave impure jungle with HOT naptha.

If higher purity is wanted for smoking then it will be a multipy stepped process.
-Pull with cold limonene

- then add ~25ml of heated vinegar/water w/ a couple pinches of citric acid. Hot seems to work better than cold for salting out. Shake it very well

-Seperate the 2 and repeat, combining the acid and putting aside the limonene.

-Evaporate to a goo

NOTE: if you would like to pharma, this goo is (in theory) perfect for that.

-Then add some LIME to make a pinky paste, let sit for a couple hours mixing around several times.

-Add some limonene and mix for a couple minutes. decant off the limonene, pour through a coffee filter and evaporate.

Now you have a mix almost pure of N-oxides and red jungle with some of the residue from limonene (lemony fresh!)

You can pull the N-oxides with HOT naptha to leave pure red jungle.

though SWIM's N-oxides never crystalized, just goo-ized

Both the gooey n-oxides and jungle can be smoked, they are harsher than pure spice, but lemony fresh.

SWIM doesn't really smoke spice have high doses anymore but tried them both at low doses and they were very DMT-like in timing but with definate charaters.

 

[idtravlr]

OK brother. SWIM thinks he's got it. A couple notes below (marked by "Question" ) just to verify...

Depending on the purity of the product and whether it is to be smoked or pharma'd then you can do a few things:

Note: SWIM does not know the amount of D-limonene needed at all... but it he knows N-oxides and N N-DMT are VERY soluble in cold limonene but it will also fill up with a lot of other junk too.

If it is to be smoked then pulling with cold (does not need to be heated at all) limonene and simply evaporating will produce a crimson jimjam goo which is quite harsh but will have the highest yield of the stated teks, you can pull the N-oxides off of it to leave impure jungle with HOT naptha.

If higher purity is wanted for smoking then it will be a multipy stepped process.
-Pull with cold limonene

- then add ~25ml of heated vinegar/water w/ a couple pinches of citric acid. Hot seems to work better than cold for salting out. Shake it very well

Question: This ~25ml of vinegar/water. Is this like a 50/50 mix? Would there be any harm in just using straight 5% distilled vinegar, or is the water important here?

-Seperate the 2 and repeat, combining the acid and putting aside the limonene.

Question: In this step one is just repeating the vinegar/water wash using additional vin/water, but using the same limo that's already in the mixture, right? In other words, no additional limo is being added, only additional vin/water for each wash?

-Evaporate to a goo

Question: The vin/water is what contains the goods, and is what is being evaped in this step, right?

NOTE: if you would like to pharma, this goo is (in theory) perfect for that.

-Then add some LIME to make a pinky paste, let sit for a couple hours mixing around several times.

-Add some limonene and mix for a couple minutes. decant off the limonene, pour through a coffee filter and evaporate.

Now you have a mix almost pure of N-oxides and red jungle with some of the residue from limonene (lemony fresh!)

You can pull the N-oxides with HOT naptha to leave pure red jungle.

though SWIM's N-oxides never crystalized, just goo-ized

Both the gooey n-oxides and jungle can be smoked, they are harsher than pure spice, but lemony fresh.

SWIM doesn't really smoke spice have high doses anymore but tried them both at low doses and they were very DMT-like in timing but with definate charaters.

Thanks again for all the help! SWIM will return the favor by keeping a log of his steps, qty's, and results, and post them back here to try and help get this process more precision.

Your faithful guinea pig!
-idt

 

[q21q21]

Question: This ~25ml of vinegar/water. Is this like a 50/50 mix? Would there be any harm in just using straight 5% distilled vinegar, or is the water important here?

Plain or mixed is fine, there should plenty acetates floating around to attach to the DMT in either pure 5% or 50/50 (2.5%) and too much is not an issue

Question: In this step one is just repeating the vinegar/water wash using additional vin/water, but using the same limo that's already in the mixture, right? In other words, no additional limo is being added, only additional vin/water for each wash?

righto


-Evaporate to a goo

Question: The vin/water is what contains the goods, and is what is being evaped in this step, right?

right again

 

[idtravlr]

SWIM thinks he may make a changa with the goo. Dissolve the goo in everclear, or something else that the goo is soluble in and will evap completely, add the changa leaf, mix it all around until the leaf is completely saturated, and let it evap! This will be an interesting experiment SWIM thinks! Having a stash of jungle infused changa around his lair would be quite nice!

Just waiting for his d-limo to show up. I will update you once SWIM reports back!

Peace,
-idt

 

[idtravlr]

SWIM wanted me to post an update here on his second round of using this tek:

This time he used 200g of MHRB and has so far yielded 2g, with probably about another .3 to .5 evaping from his 4th pull. Probably would get even more from a 5th pull, but he doubts it would be significant, so will just do a limonene / jungle pull with what remains. So, a 1% - 1.5% yield this time around, which makes SWIM happy!

SWIM used some advice from q21q21's SWIM who said that "hot" naptha can be more effective than "warm" naptha, so SWIM got his naptha to basically boiling this time around. SWIM also made his vinegar/water/lime/MHRB blend a little more soupy this time around. It made it a little more difficult to hold-back the sludge when pouring off the naptha, but he thinks it helped the naptha penetrate the mixture better, and pull out more of the freebase. He thinks these two things in combination resulted in his good yield.

Point of learning and interest!
Something that SWIM also learned by accident this time around. He used a glass catch pan under his precip dishes because his cooking pot doesn't poor very well, and wanted to make sure that he caught any spillage. The catch pan was very big for the amount of spillage that accumulated, so there was only a small area of naptha that precipitated some xstals. The portion of thee pan that didn't have naptha on it, was covered with frost from the freezer. SWIM scraped up his xstals straight away, out of the freezer, which resulted in much of this frost being scooped into the pile of xstals as well, and then left them to dry.

The curious thing is, that these xstals that were mixed with the frozen water, came out absolutely pure white, even clear to a point. Swim thinks the ice water (as the frost melted) washed the xstals as it ran through them. He has heard of using distilled ice water to clean yellow xstals before, but didn't know how valid it was. SWIM personally doesn't mind yellow xstals, but if someone wanted absolutely white or clear xstals, I think one could do an ice water wash if desired. Next batch SWIM is going to try the following to validate: Put his xstals in a coffee filter over a bowl or cup, and set an ice cube of distilled water on top of them. Let the ice cube melt at room temp and run through the xstals and the coffee filter, then let his xstals dry. Perhaps he will end up with a whole batch of pure white xstals? Any thoughts from anyone on this? Can anyone validate that an ice water wash works?

q21q21 - You need to get this tek written up for the wiki. It really is a great tek.

Peace!
-idt

 

[q21q21]

There is now another part to the tek, explains how to follow the tek by pulling the rest of the alkaoids. it is on the first page, though a reply was added it bumb/notify the forum.

Note: the next section is a work in process and was just typed up, will correct spelling and grammar later.

Doing the above steps will only yield the white N-N-Dimethyltryptamine. Generally with high quality inner root bark that is average 1%.

But the bark has a lot more than just that. Althoug mostly toxins that cause nausea when eaten, there are also some other psychoactive alkaloids similar to DMT
Yellow N-N-DMT-oxides and the red "Jungle" alkaloids

Older bark will tend to have less white N-N-DMT and more N-N-DMT-oxides unless stored in dark-cold-airtight places.
Never fret though, N-N-DMT-oxides are very useful for smoking and with pharmahuasca, producing noticeably different visual and mental effects though having similar durations.
Oxides, as they will we referred to from now on, are soluble in very hot naptha and d-limonene/xylene (cold or hot)

The "Jungle" alkaloids are a group of alkaloids that are not soluble in naptha at all and are slightly soluble in d-limonene and xylene.
SWIM has yet to do a proper solubility test but he estimates 1-5mg/ml, although one of the alkaloids is much more soluble than the rest in d-limonene (he's counted 3 so far)
Jungle when smoked is also similar in duration and method to N-N-DMT but noticeably different than N-N-DMT and oxides.

Both Jungle and Oxides are difficult to crystallize and are generally in the form of a thick and oily liquid. So working with them is much different than N-N-DMT.

Note: theses steps while dependable and accurate have not been tested nearly as thoroughly as the method for obtaining the N-N-DMT.
As SWIM works with the tek more there will be less broad amounts and times.

How to get the other alkaloids out:

After the last non-polar washes is done then all the N-N-DMT should be out of the bark. There are several methods to get a pure product so several will be mentioned.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For only N-N-Oxides: This method, while much more difficult than the full-alkaloid can be used to take the Oxides directly from the bark and could be used for those without access to d-limonene/xylene

Non-Polar Wash:

NOTE: BE CAREFUL AND NEVER HEAT NAPTHA DIRECTLY, SWIM HAS SET FIRE IN HIS KITCHEN AND BURNED HIS HAND AND WALL HEATING NAPTHA ON A STOVE!

-Use a boiling hot water bath to heat the lime-bark mush, it can be done the same way as in the earlier tek but should be hot, not warm to the touch.
This can take a lot of stirring and boiling water.

-At the same time take either your container of naptha (WITH THE LID OFF!) or a bottle with some naptha in it (ALSO LID OFF!) and place it in a bath of hot tap water

-When the mush and naptha are both hot to the touch then they should be added together. The goal is to keep the whole mix as hot as possible because N-N-oxides are barley soluble in luke-warm water (unlike N-N-DMT) but are quite soluble in hot/boiling naptha.

-Do not let the mix cool too much, it will start precipitating the oxides as it gets closer to room temperature.
within a minute or two the mix should be quite yellow.
-as long as the mix is kept hot it can be mixed for 10-15 minute for best results. Though 2-3 minutes with thorough mixing will get a decent portion of product without risking excess cooling.

-Pour off the naptha from the bark into a precipitation container, idealy one with a large surface area because it will be a thick liquid, not crystals to be worked with.
(Best: barking pan, flat bottom casserole dish)

Freezer Precipitation/evaporation:

The naptha can be either placed in the freezer, this will allow the re-using of the naptha although it will likely come out still yellow with some oxides still dissolved.

The alternative is to let the naptha evaporate, another reason for a large surface area. Just place the naptha in a place with good ventilation (a breeze) and some sun could help too (unless it is REALLY REALLY hot out)

SWIM recommends evaporation although each will yield a thick oily yellow goo.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

For Full alkaloids: Jungle + N-N-Oxides.
This method is much easier because no heat is needed (the alkaloids are soluble even at freezer temperatures), though it is longer with more steps.

Non-polar Wash:

-Add at least 1ml d-limonene/xylene for every gram of rootbark. More can be used. SWIM has not tested how much is needed to pull all the products, but more pulls can be done later.

-The solvent will turn yellow, similar to stale urine, as soon as it doesn't seems to be getting any darker then the solvent can be poured from the bark.
This can take 20 minutes or can be left for days, it is all about the color and the person's judgment. SWIM tends to leave it for an hour or two.

Although the mix likely contains much more than just the jungle and oxides, the limonene could be evaporated into a smokable product or a freebase pharmahuasca base.
If higher purity is the goal then follow the rest of the the tek.


Acid wash:

The Solvent will contain the jungle, the oxides and but it may contain a lot of other junk that just happens to be soluble in limonene/xylene. So to make sure only the alkaloids are pulled out the alkaloids will be salted out of the solution with acidic water.

-Take some sort of acid. Vinegar, Water + Citric acid are best. HCl tends to pull gunk out of the limonene though does work.

(The bag can be replaced by a separatory funnel, if you have one you should know how to use it )
Place 25ml (or so) of the acid in a zip-lock bag (Ziploc brand works, cheap ones will be destroyed by limonene/xylene)

-then pour the solvent into the bag with the acid. Heat does seem to help the process, SWIM tends to add some hot tap water to make the mix warm, though the amount of water will dictate how long the process will take since it will need to be evaporated.

-Seal the bag and shake it, shake it, shake it. SWIM is not sure how long is needed, once again the color is the judge, the acid will get yellow/red.
Once it is now longer getting more yellow/red then that is the cue to stop.

-Hold one of the corners of the bag so there is also a corner vertical to the floor, then get a pair of scissors.
hold the bag over an empty container, or directly over a dish with a large surface area.

-cut a SMALL hole in the bottom corner of the bag. While the d-limonene gets close to the bottom then pinch the corner.
The goal is not to get any on the top solvent with the bottom water, though a bit is no big deal.

-The acid wash should be repeated using new bags (I know, what a waste) until the acid no longer changes color. 2 or 3 times should be enough, though the color is the judge.

-You should have some limonene that has lost some of it's color but will likely still be slightly yellow. SWIM doesn't know if it would contain actives.
(SWIM's is still evaporating from last month's extraction, it's cold here... don't know if it'll yield anything useful)

-You should also now have some yellow acidic water which containers all the alkaloids that are soluble in limonene in freebase but not in their acid-salt form, that narrows/purifies it a lot.

-Anyway, there are a couple ways to deal with the acid.

If the mix is planned to be used for pharmahuasca, the water can be evaporated to an active product(in a food dehydrator to speed it up, or at room temp)

-If a smokable product is the goal then the mix must be freebased. Any strong base will do the trick.

-SWIM evaporated and mixed the goo with lime.
-Ammonia theoretically could work, so could Lye
-Sodium carbonate can be used (though SWIM has never had success using it in solution, only pastes)

-If Lye or ammonia or sodium carbonate solution is used then the liquid can mixed with d-limonene/xylene, shaken, seperated. Color of the solvent tells you whether the products are dissolved or not.

or

-If lime or sodium carbonate is used once the acid-water has mostly evaporated to make a paste then the paste should be left for several hours, maybe adding a splash of water for better mixing.

-then D-limonene/xylene can be mixed around the paste, you guessed it, use the color to tell you when how much solvent you use

-Either method will give you a d-limonene/xylene containing a nearly pure mix of oxides and jungle. It will then need to be evaporated.

It take a WHILE to evaporate. SWIM has in the past placed his baking pan over a pot of water on medium, still took several hours though.
it will really stink up where you are doing it though, SWIM really wouldn't recommend doing it with xylene, even the citrus smell of d-limonene was intense.

The end product will be a red/brown oily goo which is very hard to measure/work with. It will be less oily with xylene.

LASTLY

if you would like to seperate the oxides from the jungle then simply mix the goo with boiling naptha stir for a minute or two.
Then take the naptha and leaver it to evaporate on a dish with a large surface area.

The leftover goo will be pure red/brown jungle alkaloids and the naptha will evaporate to leave pure yellow N-N-DMT-oxide.

 

[idtravlr]

q21q21 - Thanks for updating man. You are so spot on with the hot naptha. SWIM has a nice double boiler setup, so he can heat his naptha nice and hot with indirect heat. SWIM did his 5th! extraction with naptha today and is still getting significant yields, although they are starting to yellow up quite a bit. This batch is easily going to be 1.5%+ yield using just the standard tek, making sure the naptha is HOT!

SWIM just got his limonene today, so your timing is perfect! This week his lab will smell of oranges and Jungle!:d SWIM is SOOOO looking forward to it!

Peace and Thank You!
-idt

 

[Methtical]

Hi there,

Quick question - how thick does the paste get after adding the lime? Contemplating trying this out in a 2.5L HDPE jug but it appears as though the consistency is quite sludgy/past-like, so is concerned it may be an issue to ensure a good mixing of the lime and the naptha. STB is normally the method employed whereby one can just shake the crap out of it, but I'm not so sure that would be effective with this mixture - any thoughts?

Thanks,

Methtical

 

[idtravlr]

Hi there,

Quick question - how thick does the paste get after adding the lime? Contemplating trying this out in a 2.5L HDPE jug but it appears as though the consistency is quite sludgy/past-like, so is concerned it may be an issue to ensure a good mixing of the lime and the naptha. STB is normally the method employed whereby one can just shake the crap out of it, but I'm not so sure that would be effective with this mixture - any thoughts?

Thanks,

Methtical

SWIM has found that one has some freedom to play with the consistency a bit after adding the lime (using boiling hot water). A "pastier" consistency makes it easier to pour off the naptha w/o getting any sludge along with it, but a "wetter" (not watery though) consistency seems to aid in making sure that all of the MHRB is fully exposed to the acid / base, and wash. SWIM thinks you could make it "shakeable", but at that point he thinks you may need a separatory funnel or filter of some kind.