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Seeking caapi experts advice... Caapi resin?

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heavenlypursuit

heavenlypursuit

Rising Star
Hey all.
So the other day, I decided I was going to try and cut down the time of making 10x caapi leaf. My idea was to do 4, 30 minute pulls on 30 grams of bark, evaporate off the water, get the resin, and then redissolve it in IPA or acetone to redeposit on 3 grams of leaf. After evaporating off the water I was left with just under 3 grams of reddish/black wonderful smelling resin. I cut two small pieces off of the source chunk. One was dropped in IPA, the other in acetone. The resin was not soluble in either one, but obviously soluble in water. The experiment was technically a failure, but I still have about 2.78 grams of this resin left, which leads me to my ultimate question.
What can I do with this stuff? Could I redissolve in water for caapi tea? Would it be the equivalent of taking 30 grams of caapi tea?
If the answer is yes, it leads to my next question.
Could one theoretically make ayahuasca resin? i. e. Make caapi tea then evaporate, make mhrb or chacruna tea, then evaporate. Roll the resin balls together and you would have a dose of ayahuasca that could be taken anywhere. Just redissolve and go. This is obviously a lot of work, and to most a waste of time, with evaporating off the tea's and what not, but I have a double boiler method that really speeds things up.

Anybody think this would work or maybe even tried it?
Please don't tell me to just extract the harmalas from the caapi and do pharma. I have plenty of caapi harmalas and was looking to see if this alternative method was viable.

I would appreciate some input. Thanks
 
This will work fine, and you don't even need to redissolve in water. When SWIM has done this (Rue instead of Aya as harmala source) the dosage was the same (resin from 30g for equivalent of 30g). In the Ayahuasca extraction thread started by gibran2, there's been some concern that they've extracted far more harmalas than dosing by plant matter weight would suggest.

Edit: When SWIM was using this method, she would gelcap the resins and pop a hole in one side, for faster digestion.
 
ragabr,

So that 2.78 grams of resin would be somewhat potent then, equivilant to 30 grams of bark? Did you ever do just the caapi resin without the light?
Also, was your gelcap experience on par with a standard aya brew?
 
ragabr said:
...In the Ayahuasca extraction thread started by gibran2, there's been some concern that they've extracted far more harmalas than dosing by plant matter weight would suggest.

Edit: When SWIM was using this method, she would gelcap the resins and pop a hole in one side, for faster digestion.
Click to expand...
This thread suggests that the extraction technique is sound – some caapi apparently is much stronger than others. (There are some members who find it hard to believe that caapi vine can contain over 3% alkaloids.)

My experience (which is very limited) is that extracted caapi alkaloids are at least as potent as an equivalent amount of caapi tea, and BananaForeskin has estimated that extracted alkaloids are about twice as potent as alkaloids in a traditionally brewed tea. He has suggested (and it seems reasonable given the limited data we have so far) that alkaloids in a traditional brew are bound to tannins or otherwise not as readily bio-available as extracted alkaloids.

I guess the question of whether or not there are active substances in caapi brew that are not extracted is still open, but the fact that there are not significant differences in subjective responses suggests that extraction effectively pulls all active substances.

A caapi “resin” preparation seems to involve nearly as much work as an alkaloid extraction, without any clear benefits.
 
gibran2,

I was looking over that thread before I posted the one about the resin. I have not tried a caapi tea yet, but have consumed my caapi harmalas orally and can attest to the potency that you and banana are speaking of.
I also smoke the caapi harmalas to great effect, but tried smoking some of the parts of the dry flaky resin with much less effect.
However, I was not suggesting the resin as an alternative to the extracted harmalas, just another option.
Some people prefer a more natural approach to things if possible. Boiling bark in water acidified with vinegar a few times, pulling, then evaporating the water seems more natural and ancient then extracting caapi harmalas.
Not saying that extracted harmalas can't be made with "natural sources". I strictly use sodium carbonate as my base for my harmalas (both rue and caapi), and vinegar as my acid. Both food grade and natural, but I also use beakers and other labware that take the "natural" aspect out of it for me.
If there are tannins and other things that the resin picks up, and the extracted harmalas don't, why would there not be any clear benefits to making the resin?
 
heavenlypursuit said:
...If there are tannins and other things that the resin picks up, and the extracted harmalas don't, why would there not be any clear benefits to making the resin?
Click to expand...
The tannins and/or other substances in caapi resin may make the alkaloids less bio-available, so more resin would have to be consumed to get the desired effects. Also, there are almost certainly tannins and/or other substances in caapi (and caapi resin) that intensify nausea but do nothing else. (I don’t consider nausea to be a benefit of an aya/pharma experience – it’s more of a distraction for me.)
 
gibran2,

I appreciate the input.
More resin is required, but you also get many more times resin than you do extracted harmala alkaloids.
Your point on the nausea is spot on for me though. I've always had a sensitive stomach and can't stand it. I've noticed slight stomach discomfort when consuming harmala alkaloids orally, but never the urge to purge.
So, I'm assuming I could safely ingest the caapi resin I made, but with the risk of nausea? Do you think a dose like that would be worth taking, or should I make more so I can get the full effects?
 
heavenlypursuit said:
gibran2,

I appreciate the input.
More resin is required, but you also get many more times resin than you do extracted harmala alkaloids.
Your point on the nausea is spot on for me though. I've always had a sensitive stomach and can't stand it. I've noticed slight stomach discomfort when consuming harmala alkaloids orally, but never the urge to purge.
So, I'm assuming I could safely ingest the caapi resin I made, but with the risk of nausea? Do you think a dose like that would be worth taking, or should I make more so I can get the full effects?
Click to expand...
What I meant about the resin requiring more was this: Suppose a dose of caapi brew is 30g. Let’s say we extract 2%, or 600mg alkaloids from this. Using the “resin” method, you might get 3g of resin. To get similar effects, you would need to consume the brew from 30g caapi, or the resin from 30g caapi (3g), or the alkaloids from 15g caapi (300mg). So 30g of caapi will yield 1 dose brew, 1 dose resin, and 2 doses alkaloids.

Concerning nausea, some of the nausea is caused by the alkaloids themselves, so there’s no way around that (other than taking ginger or other anti-nausea remedies beforehand). But caapi contains other substances (tannins in particular) that contribute to and intensify the nausea. These “nausea-intensifiers” are not removed when the resin is made – the only difference between a brew and the resin is the water content.
 
Okay, I got it. As far as efficiency goes, believe me, I'm on the same page with you that the extracted alkaloids seem to be the most efficient.
It is good to know that my ball of resin is equivalant to a 30 gram tea.
The only benefit I see to it from the tea is transportability. I think the fact that I can carry a little ball of resin made up of caapi or mhrb/caapi with me to go hiking or something similar, is pretty cool. I know you can carry the extracted harmalas and spice with you too, but having one little ball of resin to swallow seems easier.
 
SWIM thought it was the coolest when she first did it as well. Regarding the excess tannins, as long as you're doing a full brew, you can still do the egg-white tek to reduce them. Be cool.
 
Can't you remove the tannins with egg whites before evaporating?

I can definitely see some benefits to using resin.. especially if light is in the mixture.
 
ragabr said:
SWIM thought it was the coolest when she first did it as well. Regarding the excess tannins, as long as you're doing a full brew, you can still do the egg-white tek to reduce them. Be cool.
Click to expand...

As in full brew, do you mean doing four - 4 hour pulls, rather than 4 - 30 minute pulls that I was speaking of?
I'm not too familiar with the egg white tek as I am just really starting to get into the caapi tea aspect of things. I usually just extract the harmalas like I was saying to gibran.
I'll do a search on it, but would you mind posting a link if it's not a problem?
 
I think I found it...
Is it the thread in ayahuasca posted by Olympus Mon? Pics of tannin binding with egg whites?
Or is there an original tek to go by?
 
Olympus Mons' write-up is fantastic, perfect. SWIM only does 4-6 30 minute boils, and then adds the egg white like Olympus explains during the reduction step.
 
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