Storability of DMT fumarate dissolved in water?

[Sicho Naut]

I recently made the mistake of doing FASA on DMT that was all brown goo, erroneously thinking the goo would become brown DMT fumarate crystals. It's still brown goo, alas, and impossible to conveniently weigh and dose.
My current plan is to dissolve the DMT fumarate goo in water and then dose volumetrically, but I have two questions:

1) Would the DMT fumarate water be suitable for long-term storage in the fridge?
2) How much water would be needed? It's approx. 1g of DMT fumarate.

Thanks ahead!

 

[Transform]

You'll want to make it such that a convenient amount of water (1mL? 2mL? Up to you…) contains some useful yet flexible amount. 30mg freebase per 2mL seems convenient to me, but you'd have to dehydrate your fumarate goo completely for accurate weighing and adjust the DMT weight to the fumarate via some simple arithmetic.

How do you plan to preserve your solution once it's made? There's a possibility it may go mouldy otherwise.

 

[Sicho Naut]

ent amount of water (1mL? 2mL? Up to you…) contains some useful yet flexible amount. 30mg freebase per 2mL seems convenient to me, but you'd have to dehydrate your fumarate goo completely for accurate weighing and adjust the DMT weight to the fumarate via some simple arithmetic.

I ended up dissolving it in 150ml of water.
6ml / 40mg [this is a rough estimate because the weight of the goo + how much of it was DMT was never precisely ascertained] gave an underwhelming experience, but there was also delayed onset which may have been a factor. It was also my first time using DMT fumarate, so I don't know how much I would ordinarily need for a full experience.

I keep it in the freezer and intend to thaw it in the fridge whenever I want to use it. It's stored in three 50ml shot bottles, which fully thaw within 12-24 hours even in the fridge.

 

[Transform]

Grok's opinion ⇩

Evidence on Freezing and Thawing Liquid Medications

• General Guidance: Most liquid medications are recommended to be stored in a refrigerator (typically between 2-8°C or 36-46°F) as per manufacturer instructions. Freezing and thawing can potentially affect the stability and efficacy of some medications.


• Potential Deterioration: Freezing may cause physical or chemical changes in liquid medications, such as:

• Separation of emulsions or suspensions, leading to uneven dosing.

• Degradation of active ingredients due to crystal formation or pH changes.

• Alteration of preservatives, which could reduce shelf life or increase contamination risk.


• Evidence: While specific studies on repeated freeze-thaw cycles for most liquid medications are limited, some data suggests:

• Vaccines (e.g., certain influenza or hepatitis vaccines) can lose potency if frozen and thawed, as noted in CDC guidelines.

• Insulin, a common liquid medication, may show reduced efficacy if frozen, according to manufacturer warnings.

• Antibiotics like amoxicillin suspension may experience changes in consistency or potency, though specific studies on freeze-thaw cycles are sparse.


• Manufacturer Recommendations: Drug labels often explicitly warn against freezing. For example, liquid medications like cough syrups, eye drops, or oral suspensions typically advise refrigeration only.


• Best Practice: Storing liquid medications in the refrigerator, as recommended, avoids the risks associated with freezing and thawing. Repeated freeze-thaw cycles could amplify potential degradation, though exact impacts depend on the medication’s formulation.


• Conclusion: Unless explicitly stated as safe by the manufacturer, it’s best to store liquid medications in the refrigerator and avoid freezing to ensure stability and effectiveness.


Recommendation: Stick to the fridge for storage to minimize any risk of deterioration.

Those recommendations apply to formulated medications. A simple solution of a single component is unlikely to be degraded by freezing, but may still go mouldy in the fridge.

 

[Varallo]

Grok's opinion ⇩

Evidence on Freezing and Thawing Liquid Medications

• General Guidance: Most liquid medications are recommended to be stored in a refrigerator (typically between 2-8°C or 36-46°F) as per manufacturer instructions. Freezing and thawing can potentially affect the stability and efficacy of some medications.


• Potential Deterioration: Freezing may cause physical or chemical changes in liquid medications, such as:

• Separation of emulsions or suspensions, leading to uneven dosing.

• Degradation of active ingredients due to crystal formation or pH changes.

• Alteration of preservatives, which could reduce shelf life or increase contamination risk.


• Evidence: While specific studies on repeated freeze-thaw cycles for most liquid medications are limited, some data suggests:

• Vaccines (e.g., certain influenza or hepatitis vaccines) can lose potency if frozen and thawed, as noted in CDC guidelines.

• Insulin, a common liquid medication, may show reduced efficacy if frozen, according to manufacturer warnings.

• Antibiotics like amoxicillin suspension may experience changes in consistency or potency, though specific studies on freeze-thaw cycles are sparse.


• Manufacturer Recommendations: Drug labels often explicitly warn against freezing. For example, liquid medications like cough syrups, eye drops, or oral suspensions typically advise refrigeration only.


• Best Practice: Storing liquid medications in the refrigerator, as recommended, avoids the risks associated with freezing and thawing. Repeated freeze-thaw cycles could amplify potential degradation, though exact impacts depend on the medication’s formulation.


• Conclusion: Unless explicitly stated as safe by the manufacturer, it’s best to store liquid medications in the refrigerator and avoid freezing to ensure stability and effectiveness.


Recommendation: Stick to the fridge for storage to minimize any risk of deterioration.

What’s the point of this? I mean I feel like it’s a bit like saying look what google found me, It’s nice you googled it but then it’s still a bit pointless in terms of an discussion forum when you don’t actually add anything

 

[Transform]

What’s the point of this? I mean I feel like it’s a bit like saying look what google found me, It’s nice you googled it but then it’s still a bit pointless in terms of an discussion forum when you don’t actually add anything

I'd chalk it down to an innocent bit of nerding-out. @Varallo - Now have a little go at rephrasing it as though you're not talking to another Dutchman

 

[Varallo]

What’s the point of this? I mean I feel like it’s a bit like saying look what google found me, It’s nice you googled it but then it’s still a bit pointless in terms of an discussion forum when you don’t actually add anything

I see what you’re saying and Im sorry, I don’t mean it in an offensive way, I was a bit annoyed by the post.

So let me ask Grok to rephrase that as not an Dutch person;

I get that you’re sharing something you found, and that’s appreciated—but it kind of feels like just posting a Google result. It would be more helpful in a discussion if you added your own thoughts or perspective to go with it.

Much better ,

On a more serious note, @bk2492 , I would really appreciate your own thoughts on the subject, I think it’s what makes an forum like this unique and interesting if we keep sharing them.

 

[Transform]

Not relevant for something technical that I don't understand. The purpose of a forum is to contribute helpful information, whether that info comes from personal knowledge or experience or is just relayed info. Another member tagged the post with a face palm; I don't understand this criticism. AI is considered to be a controversial information source because of mixed up and false information, so I assume that is the reason for the backlash. If instead I had posted an excerpt from a scientific study, I'm sure it would have been appreciated.

For the record, these are comments from someone who has done chemistry work:

"Solutions are inherently unstable, and DMT seems to be particularly sensitive to degradation."

"I really don't know. I would not be surprised at all if it degraded significantly over time. A pinch of ascorbic acid and storage in the dark and at very low temps will help."

OK, but it's solutions of DMT freebase that are more susceptible to degradation. The salts are (on the whole) significantly more stable. It would be helpful if you could source those quotes. They're not entirely helpful in the absence of their context. Notably, the last part of the latter one also advocates freezing

One does not need to rely on liquid for dilution ⇩

Let’s say someone keeps a water bottle filled with LSD-infused water in their refrigerator. When they want to ingest a dose, they fill up a shotglass with the water. Well, this person would be better off adding a bunch of sugar to the bottle, shaking it up, and pouring the mixture into a baking dish and allowing it to dehydrate in the refrigerator.

Bulky powders are better than volumetric dosing

And he also made an interesting comment about drying DMT HCl ⇩

"It it is too hydroscopic. I precipitated DMT HCl in acetone and cyclohexane and as soon the crystals were dried of the solvents, they turned to puddles in about a minute,"

Yes some amine salts are incredibly hygroscopic. That's why DMT HCl is hardly ever used for anything. Curious how 5-MeO-DMT is essentially non-hygroscopic by comparison. Puzzling, even.

I'm not sure that DMT's potency really lends itself to dilution in a solid matrix, cyclodextrins or otherwise.

 

[Transform]

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showprofile.php?User=251218

Which (one) of the 304 threads are they from?

I did a bit of a search already, turning up nmthing much and, well, there's a certain amount of misunderstanding and inaccurate information over there, it would seem.

 

[Transform]

Things are getting a bit cranio-mural now…