The Psychonaut to Addiction/Dysfunction Pipeline

[TheSoftMachine]

Hello all. I'd like to open up a discussion which some may find controversial, but it's something I want to bring attention to regarding the possible consequences and contraindications for DMT and Psychedelic use.

12 years ago, I was 17 years old, drawn to this forum by the rising popularity of DMT at the time. I had smoked weed every day and had some limited experience with Mushrooms and DXM. I was drawn to this substance due to a near-death experience I had, which I hadn't fully processed. I wanted to explore this further, to resolve my own trauma and to further explore this confrontation with death, to see if the experiences were similar and to determine if endogenous DMT perhaps played a role. (To answer this question, I believe it might. The DMT experience was very very similar in feeling to my near-death experience caused by head trauma, it immediately felt reminiscent and very familiar)

When looking at my older posts, all I can feel is the grief for a more innocent, pure version of myself, which I've lost. And it's not something that I see talked about very often, but frankly, I wish it had been. my own near-death experience brought me here. - https://forum.dmt-nexus.me/members/atomicchronic.22471/#recent-content

Now, what I'm going to talk about here isn't something I attribute to DMT itself; I'm still incredibly grateful for the experiences and the knowledge gained from them. However, I don't think the human brain is conditioned to have these experiences with any sort of frequency. After my first use of DMT, I was blown away by the experience, and from that point onwards, was fascinated with psychonautics and the potential knowledge, benefit, and growth that can be obtained with these substances. My curiosity was piqued, and I was endlessly fascinated with the experiences possible with these substances, and I essentially made it my mission to try as many of these substances as possible, with the personal justification being for the curiosity and for personal growth.

I began smoking DMT fairly frequently, and at the time, it severely disrupted my psyche. I became paranoid, anxious, and somewhat delusional in my social anxiety, overthinking everything and having significant difficulty interacting with others socially. It's as though this repeated use stripped layers of my humanity or my ego, and I was reduced to a state where I effectively had to relearn how to function with others. Fortunately, after my use subsided and I "hung up the phone" so to speak, over time with the help of some close friends/partners, this anxiety subsided and my thoughts became more functional.

Though, still blown away by the experience, and likely due to some impulsivity issues related to my brain injury mentioned prior, this fascination just translated to other compounds. I experimented with MDMA, and LSD, I then began using 2C-B on a regular basis as this was more functional. This use was the beginning of the more problematic usage patterns, really chasing the dopaminergic high of 2C-B and excusing it as 'personal growth'. However, this psychedelic use also seemed to have a cumulative negative effect on my functionality and my psyche. This use then progressed to other drug classes, starting with dissociatives, and ending with a desire to experiment with other classes of substances.

At this point, i had used almost any compound imaginable: DMT, Musrooms, LSD, LSA, 2C-B, MDMA, 4-AcO-DMT, EPT, DPT, Salvia, Kava, Valerian, DPH, Quetiapine, Ketamine, MXE, DXM, Nitrous Oxide, Tiletamine (Legal RC, surprisingly good actually), Cocaine, Ritalin, 4-MPM (Another surprisingly good RC), Dimethocaine, Procaine, Lorazepam, Clonazepam, Zopiclone, Xanax, Etizolam (Used to get this legally as an RC, was good while it lasted), Deschloroetizolam, Avizafone (Pro-Diazepam, metabolizes into Diazepam, surprisingly still legal RC in Canada), Rilmazafone, Bretazenil, N-Ethyl-Zolpidem, Pagoclone, Phenibut, Pregabalin, Baclofen, MPP, GHB, and many many more ive likely forgotten.

It became clear that my original use may have been for the purpose of personal exploration and psychonautics, its clear that the serotonergic and dopaminergic mechanisms of actions disrupted many aspects of my mentality and reward processing. Despite the benefits of these drugs, there is a significant reward and reinforcement response, especially the phenethylamines and lysergamines. And if used with any frequency, i now strongly believe that this dopaminergic and serotonergic response if triggered with any frequency can and will downregulate these receptor systems and lead to compulsive use to further mediate this downregulation of dopamine. In a similar, but less overtly addictive fashion to other dopaminergic drugs like cocaine or amphetamines. Despite having no physical withdrawal characteristics, these drugs are still highly addictive due to the dopaminergic response and tolerance. And, in my experience, this dopaminergic response with psychedelics can also lead to compulsive use in a similar, but less chronic fashion. And for me, it did.

Now, this use was incredibly problematic already, but at this time, because of the way psychedelics are discussed and how psychonautics can justify it in an intillectual sense, it didnt even occur to me that i was compulsively using drugs at the time. It was only until this habit progressed to drugs of abuse.

Sniffing a little MDMA led to sniffing Coke more often. Sniffing Coke more often led to Benzodiazepine use, which I had been prescribed due to the anxiety issues I mentioned previously. This depressant use led me to Kratom, which I again justified with the "positive" experiences in forums like this. This use progressed until, before I knew it, I was completely and fully addicted to Kratom. I feel as though my prior dysfunctional use of psychedelics led to a "grating of the nerves", where eventually they just caused anxiety, and discomfort, for very long periods; to the point where I was desperate enough to self-medicate these anxieties.

The irony with my first opioid use being Kratom, and how that progressed further to trying highly dangerous opioids, is clear to me. I understand people usually go in the opposite direction. People will use Kratom to get off harder opioids, or addicts will pursue psychedelics to battle that condition. But not me... The Kratom eventually stopped producing the same effect.

For further irony, at this time, I was working as Clinic Lead at a Methadone/Suboxone clinic. My daily experience talking to other addicts desensitized me i guess, and it only took one bad night to eventually try Heroin (pure, sourced without Fent). As this usage progressed for some time, justified by my difficulties working and using it to self-medicate at work, I was a complete and total heroin addict. And, like everyone else, this cost led me to switch to Fentanyl. (Yes, I managed a Methadone clinic for 3 years while wholly addicted to Heroin/Fentanyl, nobody had a clue. Now, being on the other side of the counter is very humbling, though...)

During this time I also explored many opioids. Codeine, Opium, Heroin, Morphine, Oxycodone, Methadone, Suboxone, Fentanyl, and even the Fentanyl analogs Brophine, Orphine, and Chlorphine

The reason im summarizing my experiences like this, especially in contrast to my original posts on this forum.... I wanted to share with others the potential consequences of psychedelic use. I'm still a major advocate for psychedelics; I still believe my use had significant positives, which I do not regret. However, these compounds are spoken about as though their safety is comparable to Cannabis, but this is absolutely not the case. Far too many people end up using psychedelics as an escape or as a dopaminergic compulsion and don't even realize it. The lack of discussion about this and the exaggerated safety profile that many of these forums perpetuate, i think, is something that can lead a lot of people down a similar path.

So, what started as a simple psychonautic adventure with DMT to improve my wellbeing and my mind, after 12 years resulted in a chronic fentanyl addiction, extremely poor executive functioning, and even symptoms akin to schizoid personality disorder at the peak of the psychedelic misuse. Fortunately, I've been able to work through this, and the anxieties and other symptoms, discontinuing psychedelic/drug use did inhibit these personality issues. I was later diagnosed with post-concussive ADHD, which I've since medicated and that has provided relief too. But, I feel like a shell of my former self. Reading my original posts; the excitement, the positivity, the desire for community. i began to cry when I realized I've lost these aspects of myself.

I'm currently dependent on Methadone, at 100mg per day. This results in testosterone depletion and obviously the side effects of Methadone, which could be partially responsible. But I have no choice, if I don't take the Methadone, the withdrawal is extreme, nearly suicidal. Obviously, my choice to consume opioids is what led to this; that's nobody's fault but mine. But, I'm inclined to believe that my psychedelic misuse disrupted aspects of my personality, leading to more disruptive thoughts, more impulsivity, heightened mood swings and deep depressions, which made me careless. I'm a shell of my former self, and im now extremely conflicted when it comes to the promotion and encouragement of psychedelics. I believe they can be extremely useful and insightful tools, but, i also believe they can be very dangerous, and psychologically disruptive. With or without pre-existing conditions. Not that it'll make you totally psychotic or schizophrenic or anything, but, if used with any frequency, it will strip learned aspects of your personality, as it did for me.

Eventually i felt inhuman. It's now my strong opinion that our brains are not designed to navigate these spaces or to induce these psychedelic conditions with any sort of frequency. I think this needs to be stressed more, in a similar fashion as it is with MDMA, with maximum safe usage being once per month or so. I believe had I adhered to this, my life wouldnt have spiraled in the way it did, as my brain was more conditioned for the psychedelic experience than it was for standard reality, and because of this, navigating normal reality became alien to me, it became exceedingly difficult just to function, just to interact with others, or even just to take care of myself... to clean, to shower, to work. My impulsivity was high and in my mind, other drugs could be used to navigate these issues. And that did work for a while, until i realized that all I've gained in the past 12 years is a severe opioid addiction and personal dysfunction. Trying to imagine myself at that age, wondering about the future... obviously this is the last thing i anticipated.

I wanted to see if anybody else has any similar experiences. If anybody else can relate. Again, im not blaming DMT or psychedelics for this experience. But, i do think experiences like this need to be shared and stressed, a little more frequently.

I'm currently investigating extraction procedures to obtain Ibogaine: (TEK - Looking for feedback regarding new/proposed Ibogaine extraction from Voacanga.) with that really being the last hope I have to kill this methadone/opioid dependence and to inhibit the chronic desire/cravings that consume my life. Also, if anybody does have experience with Ibogaine to treat opioid use disorder, I would be very, very interested to hear those experiences as well.

I hope this can serve as a warning for similar people, especially at a similar age, who might be initially interested in DMT or psychedelics. I'm not saying that this experience shouldn't be pursued, I think it should. But treat it with significant caution. Do not allow your curiosity to become a compulsion as it did for me. Giving in to that compulsion strengthens this reward pathway and leads to further compulsivity. Not to say psychedelics are addictive; they are not. But i do believe that repeated psychedelic overuse can lead to similar dopaminergic disruptions which lead to more drug-seeking behavior and dysphoria in sobriety.

Thanks for reading, i appreciate it a lot.

 

[blig-blug]

I wanted to see if anybody else has any similar experiences. If anybody else can relate. Again, im not blaming DMT or psychedelics for this experience. But, i do think experiences like this need to be shared, and stressed, a little more frequently.

I have had a similar situation of psychedelics triggering the collapse of a mind already on edge, here I talked a bit about it: Psychedelics and Mental Illness

I overused psychedelics during that time, and ended up dipping my toes into some unadvisable substances like AB-CHMINACA. The problem weren't the substances themselves, but I had to stop in order to get better. Between stopping and getting beter there were a few "sober" years (other than prescribed medications) where I still was extremely dysfunctional and suffering immensely, so it's clear that psychedelics weren't the cause.

It's now my strong opinion that our brains are not designed to navigate these spaces or to induce these psychedelic conditions with any sort of frequency.

I don't know about them being "designed" or not, but I disagree with the idea that it's not possible to use psychedelics relatively frequently without it causing harm. Right now I'm using pharma/aya on a weekly basis, with very clear intentions every time. Far from having any impulsive need to take it, I actually have to force myself every time. It's being immensely helpful. I dedicate a specific, separate time and place for it.

With these kind of problems, causality is not easy to determine. It really sounds like psychedelics and other substances weren't helpful to you and were actively making you worse, as they were for me years ago. But at least in my case, that was due to my pre-existing mental state, not to the substances themselves.

That they can cause problems and do immense harm is not denied by anyone here, I think. Any powerful tool has the potential to cause severe harm. But in my opinion, saying that they can't be used with relative frequency without harm is just the symmetric opposite of the idea that they can't cause harm, and both are false.

 

[TheSoftMachine]

I don't know about them being "designed" or not, but I disagree with the idea that it's not possible to use psychedelics relatively frequently without it causing harm. Right now I'm using pharma/aya on a weekly basis, with very clear intentions every time. Far from having any impulsive need to take it, I actually have to force myself every time. It's being immensely helpful. I dedicate a specific, separate time and place for it.

With these kind of problems, causality is not easy to determine. It really sounds like psychedelics and other substances weren't helpful to you and were actively making you worse, as they were for me years ago. But at least in my case, that was due to my pre-existing mental state, not to the substances themselves.

That they can cause problems and do immense harm is not denied by anyone here, I think. Any powerful tool has the potential to cause severe harm. But in my opinion, saying that they can't be used with relative frequency without harm is just the symmetric opposite of the idea that they can't cause harm, and both are false.

Dont hinge too much on my use of the word "designed", perhaps this wasnt the best word to use, i dont mean to imply intelligent design or anything, in fact thats not something i particularly believe in, i just meant to say that i dont believe our brains are wired or conditioned to experience such dramatic and profound experiences, along with the cascade of brain chemistry that occurs, with any significant frequency,

I appreciate your response, and to be clear im not arguing causality either. I understand there are far more issues at play here, and many personal choices that i very well could have avoided at the time. This is not to demonize psychedelics. However, with regard to overuse, i dont think it's unreasonable to believe that if the majority of your social interactions are with machine elves, perhaps that could lead to some social dysfunction, that's all.

Ultimately i just want to bring attention to the rewarding pharmacology of certain other drugs in particular, such as MDMA, LSD, 2C-B, not quote so much DMT. But, still, i do think its important not to underestimate the risk.

You say you doubt there is risk to consuming psychedelics frequently. however, what's the risk/benefit ratio here? What benefits does using DMT on a daily/weekly basis have, which outweigh the possible risks? IMO, the "benefits" of overusing psychedelics on a daily or weekly basis are far outweighed by the risks, even if those risks are theoretical, debatable, or dependent on pre-existing conditions.

 

[blig-blug]

rewarding pharmacology of certain other drugs in particular, such as MDMA, LSD, 2C-B, not quote so much DMT

I think this seems to vary a lot from person to person. For example, in my case LSD is rewarding only in the way that climbing up an enormous mountain is rewarding. You end up extremely tired and happy about it, but I wouldn't do either often. I think in those days I had LSD frequently because I was more able to recognize my emotions in that state, and I thought by facing those awful thoughts and emotions forcefully enough I would improve (I was wrong, of course). I was also more able to feel forgiveness towards myself. That was useful, but anything that comes up during a trip must be then put into practice in day to day life if it's to actually be helpful. In those days, I believed that by experiencing it in a powerful enough way it could cause permanent changes without doing the day to day work.

But, going back to my point, I didn't experience it to be intrinsically rewarding, and I still don't. I have a huge stash of it from those days, and I have used it three times in the last two years (without counting some microdoses).

This is not to discount your experience of it being rewarding, but as an observation that it really seems to depend on the person. I feel pregabalin to be much more intrinsically rewarding than any psychedelic, for example. I could see myself getting hooked into it, and at one point it seemed I was heading that path. But nowadays I have to force myself to take any psychedelic, including "fun" doses of 2C-B.

i do think its important not to underestimate the risk

Yes, I agree with that. I hurt myself with them, and I met people (in healthcare settings) that had hurt themselves even more. It's a very real possibility.

You say you doubt there is risk to consuming psychedelics frequently. however, what's the risk/benefit ratio here?

It depends on many factors, including the frequency, the person, the current life and mental situation, how it's done, the substance, the dose, the intent... I don't think it's possible to make any general rules here.
To be clear, I don't doubt there is risk. I disagree with the idea that it can't be done in a safe and productive way. Those are different.

What benefits does using DMT on a daily/weekly basis have, which outweigh the possible risks?

In my case, with my pattern of use (including the specific substance, which is not only DMT but also harmalas in the form of aya/pharma), it's helping me straighten up my life (including abandoning excessive use of pregabalin, the realization that I was headed towards addiction came very clearly in a pharma session) and appreciate what a gift, a mystery, and a wonder is the fact of being alive. To me, this is not some minor benefit. As to the risks, there is no possible risk of addiction in this case, where I have to really force myself, and "accidentally" stop for weeks if I start feeling too stressed to force myself do it. I don't go around in my daily life under its effects, it wouldn't even be possible, so I'd say the risk/reward ratio is extremely low (if we take reward as the denominator).
In the past I've used psychedelics frequently in a way that was actively harming me, so I know that's possible as well.

IMO, the "benefits" of overusing psychedelics on a daily or weekly basis are far outweighed by the risks

Yes, overusing will be the word to use in that case. But it needn't be overuse. However, it's good that you are aware of what's more convenient to you in this moment. It took me a couple of years in the past to realize that I was harming myself.

The problem is that you seem to want to derive some kind of general rule from your personal experience. Nobody is arguing here in the Nexus that there is no risk and no possible harm AFAIK, and more often it's the opposite.

The risk/reward ratio of cliff jumping is unacceptable to me, I'd never do it. Does that mean that cliff jumping is an unacceptable activity that can never be worth it to anyone? Should the whole of humanity share my specific risk/reward appraisals for everything? It's very likely that you do and enjoy at least one activity that I would consider not worth it to me.

 

[Icon]

I've always been perplexed by frequent use of DMT. For me, one strong trip can leave me questioning reality for weeks. I started exploring psychedelics when I was 19, and it greatly diverted my life path. I shared DMT with a lot of people and often they would want me to do it with them, like hold their hand through it. I'd usually decline because if I took that offer every time I'd lose my mind. I approach other substances with more caution after seeing where DMT can take me. I haven't even tried ketamine. Maybe good I haven't, I've heard that can be very addicting.

The vape cartridge ROA that is exploding among young, new users is concerning to me. It seems to encourage a totally different style of use and relationship with the molecule. Sipping it through the course of a day or week... idk. I assume they're not breaking through, so maybe it's less insane than doing breakthroughs, but it seems like it could be habit forming.

Before getting to the last paragraphs I was thinking to suggest Ibogaine. One of the coolest guys I ever met was a recovering addict that attributed his recovery to Ibogaine. He went to a clinic for treatment, and I think once a year would go back, either for more treatment or to assist with operations. It kept him sober for 7 years before he fatally relapsed. I only knew him for his last few years.

The last time I saw him, shortly before his relapse, he was like a different person. I think something traumatic happened or he had already relapsed by that time. He was supposed to fly out to CO to talk to someone's son, in a similar situation to you and suicidal. The parents were offering him thousands of dollars if he could get their son to go try Ibogaine treatment. Despite this amazing opportunity, he seemed totally not into it, like it was a chore that in retrospect was probably keeping him from using.

It's really tragic, losing such an incredible person. At his funeral I heard some more stories about him, like from family that lived through his addicted years. I have mixed feelings I guess. On one hand, I want to say Ibogaine is just another drug, like methadone, and doesn't adequately erase the drug seeking behavior. But it does seem like those last 7 years were the best years anyone had with him, so I gotta thank Ibogaine for giving him that. He personally was a big advocate for it.

 

[TheSoftMachine]

I think this seems to vary a lot from person to person. For example, in my case LSD is rewarding only in the way that climbing up an enormous mountain is rewarding. You end up extremely tired and happy about it, but I wouldn't do either often. I think in those days I had LSD frequently because I was more able to recognize my emotions in that state, and I thought by facing those awful thoughts and emotions forcefully enough I would improve (I was wrong, of course). I was also more able to feel forgiveness towards myself. That was useful, but anything that comes up during a trip must be then put into practice in day to day life if it's to actually be helpful. In those days, I believed that by experiencing it in a powerful enough way it could cause permanent changes without doing the day to day work.

But, going back to my point, I didn't experience it to be intrinsically rewarding, and I still don't. I have a huge stash of it from those days, and I have used it three times in the last two years (without counting some microdoses).

This is not to discount your experience of it being rewarding, but as an observation that it really seems to depend on the person. I feel pregabalin to be much more intrinsically rewarding than any psychedelic, for example. I could see myself getting hooked into it, and at one point it seemed I was heading that path. But nowadays I have to force myself to take any psychedelic, including "fun" doses of 2C-B.

I appreciate your response, and im inclined to agree with the majority of your points. However, with regards to the "rewarding" aspects of these compounds - i am not necessarily talking about the user's experience. I am simply stating facts of these compound's pharmacology.

Most Phenelythamines and Lysergamides have a much higher affinity for the dopamine receptor and can modulate the dopamine transporter to release dopamine in the same mannar that serotonin is released. this is not a per-user experience phenomenon, it is the basic pharmacology and this affinity for dopamine occurs in every user, and downregulation of dopamine *will* occur with consistent agonism/modulation, there is no escaping that. And, the consequences of this are dysphoria and impulsivity towards dopaminergic activities, mostly, drugs of abuse. Tryptamines like DMT may also have dopaminergic activity. but perhaps this isnt even necessary, and downtegulation of serotonic receptors caused by constant agonism may also leave the user in a state of discomfort or dysphoria when not experiencing that surge of serotonergic activity.

And frankly, this makes complete and total sense. It's directly why LSD is used in a recreational capacity more that Mushrooms or DMT. Likewise with MDMA, it's NOT purely serotonergic.

And this is the sort of knowledge that i think is underrepresented. I would argue that tryptamines are less likely to produce this compulsive response. But, we can safely conclude that ALL dopamine agonists and positive Dopamine transporter modulators induce a physically rewarding and compulsive response when overstimulated. This is just the pharmacology itself, not personal experience, that validates this fact.

Especially a phenethylamine like 2C-B, id wager it's just as addictive as MDMA, which has about half the addictive potential of normal amphatamines due to its reduced dopaminergic response. 2C-B might even stimulate dopamine more than MDMA does. At the end of the day, mental preparedness and willpower cannot overcome downregulation of dopaminergic neurons or brain chemisty past a certain point. And these are the aspects of psychedelics which i think need more attention.

 

[blig-blug]

I understand what you mean. However, it's not correct to assume that just because a substance like LSD is a dopamine receptor agonist, it will be pharmacologically addictive. In fact, LSD is not pharmacologically addictive at normal doses (Redirecting):

There are no literature reports of successful attempts to train animals to self-administer classical hallucinogens, an animal model predictive of abuse liability, indicating that these substances do not possess the necessary pharmacology to either initiate or maintain dependence. Hoffmeister (1975) has reported that LSD actually had negative reinforcing properties in rhesus monkeys trained in an avoidance task. LSD may have weak reinforcing effects in rats, however, because Parker (1996) reported that a relatively high dose of LSD (0.2 mg/kg i.p.) produced conditioned place preference (CPP) in rats, another animal model that is often predictive of the reinforcing quality of a drug. It is important to point out that this dose is sufficient to enable LSD to activate postsynaptic DA receptors, a pharmacological property that is unique to this hallucinogen. Using the same 0.2 mg/kg dose of LSD, Meehan and Schechter (1998) also reported that LSD produced CPP in male but not in female Fawn Hooded rats. The Fawn Hooded strain of rats, however, is differentially sensitive to serotonergic agents, and fenfluramine also produces CPP in these rats (Meehan & Schechter, 1994), whereas it produces aversion in Sprague-Dawley rats Meehan & Schechter, 1994, Marona-Lewicka et al., 1996. Among all of the known hallucinogens, only LSD has high affinity for DA receptors (see, e.g., Watts et al., 1995, Giacomelli et al., 1998). Furthermore, although the acute behavioral effects of LSD are generally attributed to activation of 5-HT2A receptors, behavioral effects in rats occurring more than 1 hr after LSD administration recently have been reported to be primarily mediated by DA pathways (Marona-Lewicka & Nichols, 2002).

Addiction is a more complex issue than just pharmacology, however. And so it's possible to get addicted to LSD or other psychedelics. It doesn't seem to be frequent, but it would be wrong to say it can't happen. As wrong as saying that because it's a D2 agonist it must be pharmacologically addictive: it's just not.

I do agree that there is a correlation between both across substances, and indeed 2C-B is potentially more problematic in practice than LSD, and MDMA more than 2C-B.

At the end of the day, mental preparedness and willpower cannot overcome downregulation of dopaminergic neurons or brain chemisty past a certain point

Again, I'm not saying it's not a possible experience, but to coat it in neurology-speak is unnecessary and besides the point for substances like LSD. It's an experience, albeit an uncommon one, and doesn't seem to stem from a pharmacological basis.

And, what willpower are we talking about? A much more common experience is the one I'm reporting, where willpower is not needed to abstain, but to actually do it. This is not rare at all, frequent users of psychedelics are a tiny minority. To say that it's a frequent risk derived from the pharmacology of the substances is just wrong. As wrong as to deny the possibility.

Let's suppose LSD were indeed pharmacologically addictive due to it's agonism on dopamine receptors. Most other tryptamines don't show said agonism. Would you say then that it's not possible to overuse them? Does LSD pharmacologically compel you to keep using it, while mushrooms don't?

In my experience, switching from mushrooms to LSD actually brought down my use. It lasts so long that it's much more exhausting, and I used it less and less. I personally didn't need willpower to stop using psychedelics, it sufficed to see that I was harming myself.

In the end, I think we do agree almost totally. The point of disagreement is that you seem to want psychedelics to present addiction as a major risk, and that's just not the case. Just look at the data. Arguing from first principles or anecdotal experience is not enough.

That doesn't mean that overuse is not a risk or shouldn't be talked about and pointed out. But to jump from there to "it's impossible for anyone to use psychedelics regularly without addiction and more risk than reward" is both unwarranted and untrue.

 

[TheSoftMachine]

In the end, I think we do agree almost totally. The point of disagreement is that you seem to want psychedelics to present addiction as a major risk, and that's just not the case. That doesn't mean that overuse is not a risk or shouldn't be talked about and pointed out. But to jump from there to "it's impossible for anyone to use psychedelics regularly without addiction and more risk than reward" is both unwarranted and untrue.

I think we do agree almost completely. Again, i am not arguing that LSD or any dopaminergic psychedelic is addictive in and of itself, rapid tolerance and psychedelic mental load are known to be regulators of psychedelic use. and youre right, chronic or frequent psychedelic use is not very common.

I am not arguing that these compounds are addictive, to be explicitly clear. I am proposing the possibility that if one makes the decision to overuse these psychedelics on a daily or weekly basis, particularly dopaminergic psychedelics like 2C-B (which conveniently doesnt have the tolerance buildup that other psychedelics do), can lead to receptor downregulation which may cause significant dysphoria and impulsivity, potentially towards other dopaminergic drugs, which truly are addictive.

I want to stress again that i am not stating any causality here. But, i think it needs to be stressed that any receptors will downregulate when overstimulated. There is no such thing as a drug which the body does not adapt to in one way or another. Sometimes this manifests in physical withdrawal as it does with Opioids, sometimes this manifests in psychological withdrawal like it does with Cocaine. I dont think its unreasonable to assume there may be a dysphoric and anxious response when overstimulation of these neurons occurs.

This may not be as much of a risk with serotonergic overstimulation, though, this is likely to lead to depressive states. The issue with dopaminergic stimulation however, is compulsion and self-regulation. Conditions such as OCD and Tourettes are mediated by dopamine in a similar fashion; the reason i bring up mentality and willpower is because this is not dependant on personality or past experience. If dopamine receptors are downregulated, you *will* become more compulsive, you *will* become more reckless and unstable, and this is why dopamine agonists are addictive in the first place. Dopaminergic downregulation affects psychology in such a way where risk assessment and impulsivity is disrupted.

At the end of the day, there is no reason to assume that this behavioral response would not occur when dopamine is released by psychedelics, as compared to dopamine released by other drugs. Dopamine is dopamine, it regulates (or disregulates) behavior no matter which agent is used to instigate the dopaminergic response, or if no drug is used at all. It's why Sex, Gambling, and Food can be cripplingly addictive despite not having any psychoactive effect at all. As such, knowing drugs like LSD, MDMA, 2C-B, and even Tryptamines like DMT to a lesser extent, stimulate dopamine in a matter far more significant than even these activities. Why wouldnt this cause downregulation? why wouldnt this downregulation caused by these drugs not cause behaviors similar to downregulation by other drugs?

Lastly, im not providing a prescriptive rule or insistance either. I am trying to make it clear that im sharing my own experience and not prescribing any rules or limitations onto others. The only point i wish to be conveyed here, is that discussions about why use should be limited, and the potential consequences of overuse, probably need more attention. For example, i only learned about dopamine receptor downregulation and how this mechanism affects addiction very recently. Likewise for the dopaminergic activity of Phenethylamines and LSD, these aspects simply are not spoken about, ever.

I hope this clarifies what im trying to convey. I dont mean to be prescriptive, i just want to encourage care and responsibility when using these compounds. The consensus is that these extremely powerful psychedelics are just as safe and non-problematic as cannabis, i guess because there hasnt been a recorded overdose. but this is extremely naive and dangerous in my opinion, and this is really the only challenge im proposing here. That psychedelics are not this safe harbor alongside Cannabis, these psychedelics are capable of significant harm, even when just analyzing the pharmacology. Cannabis doesnt stimulate dopamine release and downregulation, most psyhchedelics do. It shouldnt have taken me 12 years to learn that considering the existence of this and other forums dedicated to psychedelics and harm reduction.

 

[The Traveler]

Just wanted to chime in to state that I really love to see this respectful style of discussion.

It leaves open a lot of space for people to express their ideas respectfully, and brainstorm over it along the way.

EDIT: Moved it to philosophy due to this, if anyone thinks it should be placed elsewhere please let me know.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

 

[ommani]

Compulsive use of psychedelics can happen, IME. However, at this point, taking full doses of psychedelics is also something I have to make myself do, like sitting down to meditate, taking a cold shower, or going on a long hike. While it doesn’t happen for everyone, I think the trajectory of heavy psychedelic use leading to the addictive use of other drugs is not uncommon (I believe there’s been a lot of that in the Grateful Dead community, including within the band, itself, as seen by Jerry Garcia’s addiction to cocaine and heroin). Personally, I went through a phase of overusing psilocybin and cannabis that was unhealthy and excessive, leading to negative consequences to my life and mental health. Overtime, I cut down significantly on my cannabis use, along with the frequency and dosage of psilocybin. I’d say cannabis has been far more damaging to my life than psilocybin has been, but I now enjoy both, in moderation. I’ve never done ibogaine/iboga, but am fascinated with it. Modern Psychedelics is a nice podcast that has multiple episodes on the topic of iboga, albeit with a psychospiritual focus, rather than an addiction recovery one.

 

[CosmicRiver]

Hi SoftMachine. I wanted to share my opinion on what you said but i realized there are so many confounding factors that i can only share my experience.

You mentioned being ADHD, well i'm autistic with AD(H)D traits and i didn't really know until last year. My life took a bad turn with cannabis at 15 years old. I was a socially awkward kid who had finally found some friends and learnt how to socialize. After some months of chronic cannabis use i was clinically depressed and wanted to try every drug under the sun just to escape sobriety. I don't know if cannabis can fully be blamed for it but i don't think it's completely innocent. I have to mention this because it's a major confounding factor.

Speaking about psychedelics i think i can relate to some of the things you wrote. My first LSD trip i took more than i could handle and had a very challenging experience, even had ptsd symptoms from it. But then why after 2 weeks i couldn't resist taking it again? In general, since my first psychedelic experience, every time the afterglow ended i felt really down. And a friend used to tell me "yeah, it's normal to feel down afterwards". But then why no one mentioned it? Later in life i realized that it's probably because for most people it isn't like that. For me it was because during my trips i could experience what i missed in real life (connection, meaning, serenity). And i chased the next trip, the next psychedelic on the list, hoping that it would fix me.
Of course the serotonergic effect played a role. But imo it's kinda like MDMA. Why did i feel suicidal after it? I don't think most users feel that bad the next day they take it. And MDMA even depletes serotonin while psychedelics don't, even if there is a downregulation of 5-HT2A serotonin receptors (hence tolerance). But i don't see many people talking about post-trip depression.

And during periods of frequent psychedelic use, even my sober behavior changed. I didn't follow societal norms anymore. For example if i was walking and a stream of water blocked my way, i wouldn't look for a nearby bridge but just walk through it, and then walk around completely wet. During a period of daily DMT use i fell into a delusion/psychosis-like state lasting weeks, and then i was back to normal and it never happened again. But i had a friend that used to smoked it every night and he was perfectly fine. Another dear friend instead after years of frequent psychedelic use started having psychotic symptoms and now he has a schizophrenia diagnosis (but schizophrenia is genetic so can we blame the psychedelics?).

At the end of the day i think that some of us experience "side-effects" that most people don't experience because we have some vulnerability. So i agree with you on this:

our brains are not designed to navigate these spaces or to induce these psychedelic conditions with any sort of frequency.

This being said, i think it applies to the ones of us who are vulnerable to this for whatever reason.
This being said, i think the share of such people is not low, if not high.

And anyway i sympathize with you and wish you well on your recovery. It was just out of luck that i didn't get in the same boat.

 

[blig-blug]

I hope this clarifies what im trying to convey. I dont mean to be prescriptive, i just want to encourage care and responsibility when using these compounds.

It did clarify it. I agree with you, then. I'm not sure that the right angle to look at the question from is from a pharmacological standpoint, as for example animal models haven't found what reasoning from pharmacology would predict, and it's a simplistic model made even more simplistic when used by non specialists such as ourselves. But I agree with the core of what you are saying.

The consensus is that these extremely powerful psychedelics are just as safe and non-problematic as cannabis

This could actually be right, but in the sense that cannabis is also not as safe and non-problematic as it may seem. I remember a guy I met, he was schizotypal. Most of the time he could function well and was aware of most of his delusions being so when they started, but if he used cannabis (which he did with relative frequency) the delusions blew up in intensity and he became trapped in them, unable to function. I don't know how the safety data between psychedelics and cannabis compare; cannabis may be more safe in the end. But I wouldn't be surprised if that wasn't the case.

It's why Sex, Gambling, and Food can be cripplingly addictive despite not having any psychoactive effect at all. As such, knowing drugs like LSD, MDMA, 2C-B, and even Tryptamines like DMT to a lesser extent, stimulate dopamine in a matter far more significant than even these activities

In my opinion, overuse of psychedelics is more closely related to those behaviors you mention. See also videogames and self-harm. I'm unconvinced their very minor dopamine stimulation is really a part of the problem, but as you say that's not necessary. And it's true that, if dopamine stimulation has a significant effect in this case, it won't be for the best.

The only point i wish to be conveyed here, is that discussions about why use should be limited, and the potential consequences of overuse, probably need more attention.

Hopefully, consequences of overuse will be more studied in the future, as far as I know there's not a lot on that yet. In the absence of research, anecdotal information is very valuable, so thank you for sharing your experience. You are right that on the places of the internet that favor psychedelics this is generally not discussed very often. Although I think here it's more frequent.

 

[Varallo]

Hello all. I'd like to open up a discussion which some may find controversial, but it's something I want to bring attention to regarding the possible consequences and contraindications for DMT and Psychedelic use.

12 years ago, I was 17 years old, drawn to this forum by the rising popularity of DMT at the time. I had smoked weed every day and had some limited experience with Mushrooms and DXM. I was drawn to this substance due to a near-death experience I had, which I hadn't fully processed. I wanted to explore this further, to resolve my own trauma and to further explore this confrontation with death, to see if the experiences were similar and to determine if endogenous DMT perhaps played a role. (To answer this question, I believe it might. The DMT experience was very very similar in feeling to my near-death experience caused by head trauma, it immediately felt reminiscent and very familiar)

When looking at my older posts, all I can feel is the grief for a more innocent, pure version of myself, which I've lost. And it's not something that I see talked about very often, but frankly, I wish it had been. my own near-death experience brought me here. - https://forum.dmt-nexus.me/members/atomicchronic.22471/#recent-content

Now, what I'm going to talk about here isn't something I attribute to DMT itself; I'm still incredibly grateful for the experiences and the knowledge gained from them. However, I don't think the human brain is conditioned to have these experiences with any sort of frequency. After my first use of DMT, I was blown away by the experience, and from that point onwards, was fascinated with psychonautics and the potential knowledge, benefit, and growth that can be obtained with these substances. My curiosity was piqued, and I was endlessly fascinated with the experiences possible with these substances, and I essentially made it my mission to try as many of these substances as possible, with the personal justification being for the curiosity and for personal growth.

I began smoking DMT fairly frequently, and at the time, it severely disrupted my psyche. I became paranoid, anxious, and somewhat delusional in my social anxiety, overthinking everything and having significant difficulty interacting with others socially. It's as though this repeated use stripped layers of my humanity or my ego, and I was reduced to a state where I effectively had to relearn how to function with others. Fortunately, after my use subsided and I "hung up the phone" so to speak, over time with the help of some close friends/partners, this anxiety subsided and my thoughts became more functional.

Though, still blown away by the experience, and likely due to some impulsivity issues related to my brain injury mentioned prior, this fascination just translated to other compounds. I experimented with MDMA, and LSD, I then began using 2C-B on a regular basis as this was more functional. This use was the beginning of the more problematic usage patterns, really chasing the dopaminergic high of 2C-B and excusing it as 'personal growth'. However, this psychedelic use also seemed to have a cumulative negative effect on my functionality and my psyche. This use then progressed to other drug classes, starting with dissociatives, and ending with a desire to experiment with other classes of substances.

At this point, i had used almost any compound imaginable: DMT, Musrooms, LSD, LSA, 2C-B, MDMA, 4-AcO-DMT, EPT, DPT, Salvia, Kava, Valerian, DPH, Quetiapine, Ketamine, MXE, DXM, Nitrous Oxide, Tiletamine (Legal RC, surprisingly good actually), Cocaine, Ritalin, 4-MPM (Another surprisingly good RC), Dimethocaine, Procaine, Lorazepam, Clonazepam, Zopiclone, Xanax, Etizolam (Used to get this legally as an RC, was good while it lasted), Deschloroetizolam, Avizafone (Pro-Diazepam, metabolizes into Diazepam, surprisingly still legal RC in Canada), Rilmazafone, Bretazenil, N-Ethyl-Zolpidem, Pagoclone, Phenibut, Pregabalin, Baclofen, MPP, GHB, and many many more ive likely forgotten.

It became clear that my original use may have been for the purpose of personal exploration and psychonautics, its clear that the serotonergic and dopaminergic mechanisms of actions disrupted many aspects of my mentality and reward processing. Despite the benefits of these drugs, there is a significant reward and reinforcement response, especially the phenethylamines and lysergamines. And if used with any frequency, i now strongly believe that this dopaminergic and serotonergic response if triggered with any frequency can and will downregulate these receptor systems and lead to compulsive use to further mediate this downregulation of dopamine. In a similar, but less overtly addictive fashion to other dopaminergic drugs like cocaine or amphetamines. Despite having no physical withdrawal characteristics, these drugs are still highly addictive due to the dopaminergic response and tolerance. And, in my experience, this dopaminergic response with psychedelics can also lead to compulsive use in a similar, but less chronic fashion. And for me, it did.

Now, this use was incredibly problematic already, but at this time, because of the way psychedelics are discussed and how psychonautics can justify it in an intillectual sense, it didnt even occur to me that i was compulsively using drugs at the time. It was only until this habit progressed to drugs of abuse.

Sniffing a little MDMA led to sniffing Coke more often. Sniffing Coke more often led to Benzodiazepine use, which I had been prescribed due to the anxiety issues I mentioned previously. This depressant use led me to Kratom, which I again justified with the "positive" experiences in forums like this. This use progressed until, before I knew it, I was completely and fully addicted to Kratom. I feel as though my prior dysfunctional use of psychedelics led to a "grating of the nerves", where eventually they just caused anxiety, and discomfort, for very long periods; to the point where I was desperate enough to self-medicate these anxieties.

The irony with my first opioid use being Kratom, and how that progressed further to trying highly dangerous opioids, is clear to me. I understand people usually go in the opposite direction. People will use Kratom to get off harder opioids, or addicts will pursue psychedelics to battle that condition. But not me... The Kratom eventually stopped producing the same effect.

For further irony, at this time, I was working as Clinic Lead at a Methadone/Suboxone clinic. My daily experience talking to other addicts desensitized me i guess, and it only took one bad night to eventually try Heroin (pure, sourced without Fent). As this usage progressed for some time, justified by my difficulties working and using it to self-medicate at work, I was a complete and total heroin addict. And, like everyone else, this cost led me to switch to Fentanyl. (Yes, I managed a Methadone clinic for 3 years while wholly addicted to Heroin/Fentanyl, nobody had a clue. Now, being on the other side of the counter is very humbling, though...)

During this time I also explored many opioids. Codeine, Opium, Heroin, Morphine, Oxycodone, Methadone, Suboxone, Fentanyl, and even the Fentanyl analogs Brophine, Orphine, and Chlorphine

The reason im summarizing my experiences like this, especially in contrast to my original posts on this forum.... I wanted to share with others the potential consequences of psychedelic use. I'm still a major advocate for psychedelics; I still believe my use had significant positives, which I do not regret. However, these compounds are spoken about as though their safety is comparable to Cannabis, but this is absolutely not the case. Far too many people end up using psychedelics as an escape or as a dopaminergic compulsion and don't even realize it. The lack of discussion about this and the exaggerated safety profile that many of these forums perpetuate, i think, is something that can lead a lot of people down a similar path.

So, what started as a simple psychonautic adventure with DMT to improve my wellbeing and my mind, after 12 years resulted in a chronic fentanyl addiction, extremely poor executive functioning, and even symptoms akin to schizoid personality disorder at the peak of the psychedelic misuse. Fortunately, I've been able to work through this, and the anxieties and other symptoms, discontinuing psychedelic/drug use did inhibit these personality issues. I was later diagnosed with post-concussive ADHD, which I've since medicated and that has provided relief too. But, I feel like a shell of my former self. Reading my original posts; the excitement, the positivity, the desire for community. i began to cry when I realized I've lost these aspects of myself.

I'm currently dependent on Methadone, at 100mg per day. This results in testosterone depletion and obviously the side effects of Methadone, which could be partially responsible. But I have no choice, if I don't take the Methadone, the withdrawal is extreme, nearly suicidal. Obviously, my choice to consume opioids is what led to this; that's nobody's fault but mine. But, I'm inclined to believe that my psychedelic misuse disrupted aspects of my personality, leading to more disruptive thoughts, more impulsivity, heightened mood swings and deep depressions, which made me careless. I'm a shell of my former self, and im now extremely conflicted when it comes to the promotion and encouragement of psychedelics. I believe they can be extremely useful and insightful tools, but, i also believe they can be very dangerous, and psychologically disruptive. With or without pre-existing conditions. Not that it'll make you totally psychotic or schizophrenic or anything, but, if used with any frequency, it will strip learned aspects of your personality, as it did for me.

Eventually i felt inhuman. It's now my strong opinion that our brains are not designed to navigate these spaces or to induce these psychedelic conditions with any sort of frequency. I think this needs to be stressed more, in a similar fashion as it is with MDMA, with maximum safe usage being once per month or so. I believe had I adhered to this, my life wouldnt have spiraled in the way it did, as my brain was more conditioned for the psychedelic experience than it was for standard reality, and because of this, navigating normal reality became alien to me, it became exceedingly difficult just to function, just to interact with others, or even just to take care of myself... to clean, to shower, to work. My impulsivity was high and in my mind, other drugs could be used to navigate these issues. And that did work for a while, until i realized that all I've gained in the past 12 years is a severe opioid addiction and personal dysfunction. Trying to imagine myself at that age, wondering about the future... obviously this is the last thing i anticipated.

I wanted to see if anybody else has any similar experiences. If anybody else can relate. Again, im not blaming DMT or psychedelics for this experience. But, i do think experiences like this need to be shared and stressed, a little more frequently.

I'm currently investigating extraction procedures to obtain Ibogaine: (TEK - Looking for feedback regarding new/proposed Ibogaine extraction from Voacanga.) with that really being the last hope I have to kill this methadone/opioid dependence and to inhibit the chronic desire/cravings that consume my life. Also, if anybody does have experience with Ibogaine to treat opioid use disorder, I would be very, very interested to hear those experiences as well.

I hope this can serve as a warning for similar people, especially at a similar age, who might be initially interested in DMT or psychedelics. I'm not saying that this experience shouldn't be pursued, I think it should. But treat it with significant caution. Do not allow your curiosity to become a compulsion as it did for me. Giving in to that compulsion strengthens this reward pathway and leads to further compulsivity. Not to say psychedelics are addictive; they are not. But i do believe that repeated psychedelic overuse can lead to similar dopaminergic disruptions which lead to more drug-seeking behavior and dysphoria in sobriety.

Thanks for reading, i appreciate it a lot.

I think this is an important discussion about how the use of psychedelics can lead to polydrug addiction, or at least to a pattern of constantly seeking new substances, since eventually that can include drugs that are highly addictive and hard to quit.

If I am being honest with myself, I think I am, to some extent, polydrug addicted. In my case that means I use psychedelics regularly and have done so for decades, with no real intention of stopping. That is a strange realization. At the same time I am fortunate to have a body that does not enjoy amphetamines or opiates and cocaine. In that sense I might be in a position where using psychedelics feels relatively safe.

That does not mean I never take breaks. Sometimes I stop for a few weeks and use nothing at all. Still, it is a recurring theme in my life. It seems I need these experiences and get real enjoyment from them. My intention, though, is different from what I often read on the Nexus. For me it is more about exploring consciousness than healing trauma or solving personal problems. It is simply part of who I am, and I find joy, discovery, and wonder in it.

I sometimes wonder who I would have been if I had never used psychedelics. I started too young, really a child (teen, late bloomer) when I look back, and I am not sure that was a good thing. It is hard to judge in hindsight. Even so, I do not see major negative effects now, apart from the fact that psychedelics often occupy a big part of my thoughts. That is not always a problem, but sometimes I wish I could focus on other things. When that happens, it is a sign for me to take a break.

Your warning is valid and important, especially because psychedelics, trauma processing, and self-medication are often discussed together on the Nexus. I find that combination risky. Using drugs to heal yourself or to act as your own doctor is dangerous, especially when the research suggesting that psychedelics heal trauma is very thin. The effects are often barely distinguishable from those of regular therapy, which means the therapeutic setting itself plays a huge role in any benefit.

Treating psychedelics as if they were medicines can therefore be risky. If you are not fully honest with yourself, you can easily end up in a loop. You feel bad, so you use drugs, but the drugs can also make you feel bad. It is an easy trap. Since psychedelics can be intense, it is tempting to turn to other substances that feel milder but are in fact far more addictive. I think that happens to many people.

Finally, thanks for sharing , and I largely agree with what you say. I wish you strength and success in your ongoing recovery.

Take care

 

[doubledog]

My experience is that not all substances called psychedelics are equal.
When I hear about problematic use, there is almost always LSD and/or MDMA involved in some phase. I know that this is very unpopular in these circles, but my opinion is that LSD is much more troublesome substance than tryptamines like DMT or mushrooms.

Young age combined with use of these substances is risky. Especially when supported by popular belief that psychedelics are great, work by themselves and that their potential is directly dependent on the amount consumed. Some people seem to believe that 50 doses of LSD will heal you/allow you to explore your mind 50 times more than one dose.
Another important aspect is that addictive behaviour is often present before any psychedelic ingestion. I am sure that "Smoking weed everyday" is very frequent theme in these cases.

 

[Pumpy]

I think this thread is instructive and I wish I had had read something like this when i was seventeen. In my opinion medicine can be too tasty and too easy to find certainly but then restraint enters (don't know what else to say) . But also if one practices too much restraint one is bound to eventually regret that , too, so maybe not all those adventures seem so regrettable in hindsight and so on ad infin
In a way the inviting helpful nature of places like this forum serve as a painful badge to those who "know" , like a billboard (wall drug poster?)

[too terse? nah it's far down enough

 

[Traged]

if used with any frequency, it will strip learned aspects of your personality, as it did for me

I feel like that's the point. I strip myself, of ego, I let go of things and I rebuild a new me. To be able to rebuild your mind, as I call it "tighten your own lose screws" takes practice. If you take out cornerstone of your beliefs out on trip, you need to rebuild everything above that part. Otherwise you would end up in really weird place I suppose.

The stripping aspect is a good one. But can affect you in a bad way if you are not, I guess prepared, conscious, or careful...

I'm currently investigating extraction procedures to obtain Ibogaine: (TEK - Looking for feedback regarding new/proposed Ibogaine extraction from Voacanga.) with that really being the last hope I have to kill this methadone/opioid dependence and to inhibit the chronic desire/cravings that consume my life.

I do not have the experience with Ibogaine. But I have read that this should work. Not only it should work, but the irony, ending the abuse of drugs with another drug...

It's now my strong opinion that our brains are not designed to navigate these spaces or to induce these psychedelic conditions with any sort of frequency.

I strongly disagree with this statement. If you would say "psyche of most people are not designed to navigate these spaces or to induce these psychedelic conditions with any sort of frequency" - I would probably agree. But also "psyche of most people are not designed to navigate this world properly"...

There is high probability that we these compounds had evolutionary role for us, and still have some.

The issue may lay at the same place as it lays with food. It is not that you do not need food, but we managed to make it too easy to get it, so people get too much of it because they can. Then obesity arrives. I guess the main problem is the ability of people to solve their problems from inside, instead of that they plaster whatever they get their hands on, over the problem. Be it food, drugs or lashing out... (come to it, food is also drugs - I am starting to have some weird ideas)

To be able to solve things from inside, is not easy. You either have to be lead to it from beginnings or somehow figure it our, or find your way to is. Most people don't - I can see it every day of my life...

If I am being honest with myself, I think I am, to some extent, polydrug addicted. In my case that means I use psychedelics regularly and have done so for decades, with no real intention of stopping. That is a strange realization.

I am planning on using compounds - some considered drugs, some not. From now on, until my death. I think about it a lot, I what compounds, and why. I revisit my reasoning every now and then. Mushrooms improved my life, and continue to do so... But also, I have revisited my use many times, sometimes under influence, sometimes sober and really thought about it. Questions like: "Do I have a problem?", "Should I use this?", "Is this okay?", "Are effects beneficial?"... Short answer is yes. Rule of thumb is, if you take some compound, and after you decide to learn music instrument - you should do that compound more often...

 

[JungleGhost]

Hello all. I'd like to open up a discussion which some may find controversial, but it's something I want to bring attention to regarding the possible consequences and contraindications for DMT and Psychedelic use.

12 years ago, I was 17 years old, drawn to this forum by the rising popularity of DMT at the time. I had smoked weed every day and had some limited experience with Mushrooms and DXM. I was drawn to this substance due to a near-death experience I had, which I hadn't fully processed. I wanted to explore this further, to resolve my own trauma and to further explore this confrontation with death, to see if the experiences were similar and to determine if endogenous DMT perhaps played a role. (To answer this question, I believe it might. The DMT experience was very very similar in feeling to my near-death experience caused by head trauma, it immediately felt reminiscent and very familiar)

When looking at my older posts, all I can feel is the grief for a more innocent, pure version of myself, which I've lost. And it's not something that I see talked about very often, but frankly, I wish it had been. my own near-death experience brought me here. - https://forum.dmt-nexus.me/members/atomicchronic.22471/#recent-content

Now, what I'm going to talk about here isn't something I attribute to DMT itself; I'm still incredibly grateful for the experiences and the knowledge gained from them. However, I don't think the human brain is conditioned to have these experiences with any sort of frequency. After my first use of DMT, I was blown away by the experience, and from that point onwards, was fascinated with psychonautics and the potential knowledge, benefit, and growth that can be obtained with these substances. My curiosity was piqued, and I was endlessly fascinated with the experiences possible with these substances, and I essentially made it my mission to try as many of these substances as possible, with the personal justification being for the curiosity and for personal growth.

I began smoking DMT fairly frequently, and at the time, it severely disrupted my psyche. I became paranoid, anxious, and somewhat delusional in my social anxiety, overthinking everything and having significant difficulty interacting with others socially. It's as though this repeated use stripped layers of my humanity or my ego, and I was reduced to a state where I effectively had to relearn how to function with others. Fortunately, after my use subsided and I "hung up the phone" so to speak, over time with the help of some close friends/partners, this anxiety subsided and my thoughts became more functional.

Though, still blown away by the experience, and likely due to some impulsivity issues related to my brain injury mentioned prior, this fascination just translated to other compounds. I experimented with MDMA, and LSD, I then began using 2C-B on a regular basis as this was more functional. This use was the beginning of the more problematic usage patterns, really chasing the dopaminergic high of 2C-B and excusing it as 'personal growth'. However, this psychedelic use also seemed to have a cumulative negative effect on my functionality and my psyche. This use then progressed to other drug classes, starting with dissociatives, and ending with a desire to experiment with other classes of substances.

At this point, i had used almost any compound imaginable: DMT, Musrooms, LSD, LSA, 2C-B, MDMA, 4-AcO-DMT, EPT, DPT, Salvia, Kava, Valerian, DPH, Quetiapine, Ketamine, MXE, DXM, Nitrous Oxide, Tiletamine (Legal RC, surprisingly good actually), Cocaine, Ritalin, 4-MPM (Another surprisingly good RC), Dimethocaine, Procaine, Lorazepam, Clonazepam, Zopiclone, Xanax, Etizolam (Used to get this legally as an RC, was good while it lasted), Deschloroetizolam, Avizafone (Pro-Diazepam, metabolizes into Diazepam, surprisingly still legal RC in Canada), Rilmazafone, Bretazenil, N-Ethyl-Zolpidem, Pagoclone, Phenibut, Pregabalin, Baclofen, MPP, GHB, and many many more ive likely forgotten.

It became clear that my original use may have been for the purpose of personal exploration and psychonautics, its clear that the serotonergic and dopaminergic mechanisms of actions disrupted many aspects of my mentality and reward processing. Despite the benefits of these drugs, there is a significant reward and reinforcement response, especially the phenethylamines and lysergamines. And if used with any frequency, i now strongly believe that this dopaminergic and serotonergic response if triggered with any frequency can and will downregulate these receptor systems and lead to compulsive use to further mediate this downregulation of dopamine. In a similar, but less overtly addictive fashion to other dopaminergic drugs like cocaine or amphetamines. Despite having no physical withdrawal characteristics, these drugs are still highly addictive due to the dopaminergic response and tolerance. And, in my experience, this dopaminergic response with psychedelics can also lead to compulsive use in a similar, but less chronic fashion. And for me, it did.

Now, this use was incredibly problematic already, but at this time, because of the way psychedelics are discussed and how psychonautics can justify it in an intillectual sense, it didnt even occur to me that i was compulsively using drugs at the time. It was only until this habit progressed to drugs of abuse.

Sniffing a little MDMA led to sniffing Coke more often. Sniffing Coke more often led to Benzodiazepine use, which I had been prescribed due to the anxiety issues I mentioned previously. This depressant use led me to Kratom, which I again justified with the "positive" experiences in forums like this. This use progressed until, before I knew it, I was completely and fully addicted to Kratom. I feel as though my prior dysfunctional use of psychedelics led to a "grating of the nerves", where eventually they just caused anxiety, and discomfort, for very long periods; to the point where I was desperate enough to self-medicate these anxieties.

The irony with my first opioid use being Kratom, and how that progressed further to trying highly dangerous opioids, is clear to me. I understand people usually go in the opposite direction. People will use Kratom to get off harder opioids, or addicts will pursue psychedelics to battle that condition. But not me... The Kratom eventually stopped producing the same effect.

For further irony, at this time, I was working as Clinic Lead at a Methadone/Suboxone clinic. My daily experience talking to other addicts desensitized me i guess, and it only took one bad night to eventually try Heroin (pure, sourced without Fent). As this usage progressed for some time, justified by my difficulties working and using it to self-medicate at work, I was a complete and total heroin addict. And, like everyone else, this cost led me to switch to Fentanyl. (Yes, I managed a Methadone clinic for 3 years while wholly addicted to Heroin/Fentanyl, nobody had a clue. Now, being on the other side of the counter is very humbling, though...)

During this time I also explored many opioids. Codeine, Opium, Heroin, Morphine, Oxycodone, Methadone, Suboxone, Fentanyl, and even the Fentanyl analogs Brophine, Orphine, and Chlorphine

The reason im summarizing my experiences like this, especially in contrast to my original posts on this forum.... I wanted to share with others the potential consequences of psychedelic use. I'm still a major advocate for psychedelics; I still believe my use had significant positives, which I do not regret. However, these compounds are spoken about as though their safety is comparable to Cannabis, but this is absolutely not the case. Far too many people end up using psychedelics as an escape or as a dopaminergic compulsion and don't even realize it. The lack of discussion about this and the exaggerated safety profile that many of these forums perpetuate, i think, is something that can lead a lot of people down a similar path.

So, what started as a simple psychonautic adventure with DMT to improve my wellbeing and my mind, after 12 years resulted in a chronic fentanyl addiction, extremely poor executive functioning, and even symptoms akin to schizoid personality disorder at the peak of the psychedelic misuse. Fortunately, I've been able to work through this, and the anxieties and other symptoms, discontinuing psychedelic/drug use did inhibit these personality issues. I was later diagnosed with post-concussive ADHD, which I've since medicated and that has provided relief too. But, I feel like a shell of my former self. Reading my original posts; the excitement, the positivity, the desire for community. i began to cry when I realized I've lost these aspects of myself.

I'm currently dependent on Methadone, at 100mg per day. This results in testosterone depletion and obviously the side effects of Methadone, which could be partially responsible. But I have no choice, if I don't take the Methadone, the withdrawal is extreme, nearly suicidal. Obviously, my choice to consume opioids is what led to this; that's nobody's fault but mine. But, I'm inclined to believe that my psychedelic misuse disrupted aspects of my personality, leading to more disruptive thoughts, more impulsivity, heightened mood swings and deep depressions, which made me careless. I'm a shell of my former self, and im now extremely conflicted when it comes to the promotion and encouragement of psychedelics. I believe they can be extremely useful and insightful tools, but, i also believe they can be very dangerous, and psychologically disruptive. With or without pre-existing conditions. Not that it'll make you totally psychotic or schizophrenic or anything, but, if used with any frequency, it will strip learned aspects of your personality, as it did for me.

Eventually i felt inhuman. It's now my strong opinion that our brains are not designed to navigate these spaces or to induce these psychedelic conditions with any sort of frequency. I think this needs to be stressed more, in a similar fashion as it is with MDMA, with maximum safe usage being once per month or so. I believe had I adhered to this, my life wouldnt have spiraled in the way it did, as my brain was more conditioned for the psychedelic experience than it was for standard reality, and because of this, navigating normal reality became alien to me, it became exceedingly difficult just to function, just to interact with others, or even just to take care of myself... to clean, to shower, to work. My impulsivity was high and in my mind, other drugs could be used to navigate these issues. And that did work for a while, until i realized that all I've gained in the past 12 years is a severe opioid addiction and personal dysfunction. Trying to imagine myself at that age, wondering about the future... obviously this is the last thing i anticipated.

I wanted to see if anybody else has any similar experiences. If anybody else can relate. Again, im not blaming DMT or psychedelics for this experience. But, i do think experiences like this need to be shared and stressed, a little more frequently.

I'm currently investigating extraction procedures to obtain Ibogaine: (TEK - Looking for feedback regarding new/proposed Ibogaine extraction from Voacanga.) with that really being the last hope I have to kill this methadone/opioid dependence and to inhibit the chronic desire/cravings that consume my life. Also, if anybody does have experience with Ibogaine to treat opioid use disorder, I would be very, very interested to hear those experiences as well.

I hope this can serve as a warning for similar people, especially at a similar age, who might be initially interested in DMT or psychedelics. I'm not saying that this experience shouldn't be pursued, I think it should. But treat it with significant caution. Do not allow your curiosity to become a compulsion as it did for me. Giving in to that compulsion strengthens this reward pathway and leads to further compulsivity. Not to say psychedelics are addictive; they are not. But i do believe that repeated psychedelic overuse can lead to similar dopaminergic disruptions which lead to more drug-seeking behavior and dysphoria in sobriety.

Thanks for reading, i appreciate it a lot.

my story is similar and I'm also looking for those with ibogaine exp. to share...

 

[Transform]

Not necessarily iboga-related, but I feel the post immediately preceding yours offers a great perspective.

There's plenty of reading material in the iboga section:

Iboga

Know your roots

forum.dmt-nexus.me

 

[Voidmatrix]

Interesting post. I recall stating on my profile recently that if one is going to be a heavy psychedelic user then one must also be extremely mindful. The gravitation from our center and our core, the decay we consciously encounter, creeps in over time, making it hard to catch oneself before it's too late. This is where some of my own concerns stem from, as I am a very frequent user myself. This is also why, despite my frequency, much of my regular work is on the lower end of things, though this is starting to become meaningless as less gives me more, but at the same time I am able to process and integrate rather quickly most of the time, depending on what needs integration into my being and life. For me to get to this point however has taken years and years of dedicated work and conditioning for what I am doing now. The other thing to consider is how we are all different and different molecules and substances have a different range and breadth of what can be experienced by us on the whole.

One love

 

[TransistorBass]

That's quite a journey and very brave of you to detail it all here. I'll wish you the best of luck with what comes next and I hope you reach a positive outcome.