Trying to improve Acacia information

[nen888]

..while not spectacular, i can add (as it's a start)

my summary from rom an account given first-hand to me: ..a very crude 20mg extract (from 80g Acacia falcata phyllodes & twigs, roadside) was assayed recently..it was collected from young, planted trees (3-4ft) which were on mass by a highway..STB methanol/NaOH/napatha
..it was a pale brown wax with a faintly sweet smell..due to the small amount, purification was not performed, and it was trialed with whatever tars/gums/waxes/tannins may have been present (there was probably less than 20mg actual alkaloid)

..it was apparently 'psychoactive', but the amount taken was too small too really say what kind of activity it was, 'tryptamine-like'..but only +1 level at this stage..A. falcata has previously been reported as simply 'psychoactive' in Pharm.Excipients..

..the smoke (which may have still contained tars) was very harsh and odd tasting, and taken in two inhalations, each only held a few seconds..
..there was an immediate sense of pressure and movement in the frontal part of the face/forehead, and over the next 30 seconds a slight sense of receding from ordinary space..from the 1-5 minute point there were faint closed-eye 'pixilation'/organized phosphene type images and a faint but persistent high pitched buzz/wave sound..5-40minutes was a sense of being slightly pleasantly 'stoned', for want of a better description..effects gone 45-60 mins..

..more mature specimens of the plant will be tested, and purified to crystaline material before further tests can be contemplated..hopefully reagents can indicate roughly what might be present..

also, the material was collected while the plant was in flower (to be sure of ID), but this is, in experience, a time when acacia alkaloids can be changed or reduced...

 

[nen888]

..A. giraffe (DMT in leaf) was part of a list (which incl. the full constituents of longifolia var. sophorae) in an interal research paper/PHD i was shown in 1994/5
..a friend, whilst in East Africa, did the 'burning leaf' test on it (which is more acurate, once practiced, than one might imagine) and said it was 'smelling good'..

..there was once a report of 'giraffes (wearing sunglasses!)' on an acacia entheogenic experience, but that's not exactly 'evidence', i know..

 

[nen888]

..hey there researchers and acacia-interested people..there sure has been a lot of info. to take in lately..


..to try & clarify Acacia obtusifolia (within your wikipedia correction accepted standards wira) .. certainly a much assayed plant..it is known to naturally hybridize with A. longifolia and, in one case, A. maidenii..it has 3-4 distinct sub-types.

1995-6 'E' Austr. reports first DMT-like effects, then multi-alkaloid variability
(entheogen review); Mulga reports up to 0.6% alkaloids bark.
1997-8 finding of 5meoDMT/tryptamine in twig/stem bark reported to 'E' by Mulga,
location was i believe Poland; 'E' finds bufotenine in seeding material
1999 material collected by 'E' deemed 'typical/effects good' tested by 'DS' via 'R'.
was 0.3% phyllodes 2/3 NMT, 1/3 DMT, 2%betacarboline
2000 S.C. university GCMS similar ratios to above (NMT,DMT,b.c.)
Mulga tests less common subtropical variety - mainly DMT but lower yields
(0.1 or less phyllodes), trace leptocladaine (b.c.).
later findings of trace harman/nor-harman reported via K. Trout.
Sweedish magicmolekylar.wiki site appears it's own finding (DMT,NMT,b.c)
..small traces of 2 unknown alkaloids appeared on the Mulga chart; evidence of additional unknown alkaloid at 1-2% [pers. observation]


EDIT: small amounts 3-methyl-quinoline (unknown toxicity) now detected in two obtusifolia samples (along with DMT, probable NMT (in the system they co-cromatograph) , and 2MeTHBC); see acacia analysis thread..
................................................................................................................................................

.
..a bit more interesting (discussion wise for now) is Acacia jurema (Brazil),
which requires some additional info.

..it has been mistaken for Mimosa hostilis.
on this misidentification, an amsterdam based ayahuasca healer in the 90s, who was doing rainforest restoration work, asked the local indigenous tribe why they were drinking it without an MAOI (the vine)..somehow the knowledge of this 'jurema' had become obscure to them..the healer gave a couple of shamans a brew of the acacia (thinking it hostilis) with their maoi version (syrian rue) ..they loved it and started adding a.jurema, i believe, to ayahuasca..

..also, i have been informed that A. jurema (as 'Jurema Negro') is used by a number of African-Brazillian ayahusca spiritual groups as the dmt containing plant..such sessions usually utilize a lot of drumming, and sometimes dancing, in contrast with other styles of ayahusca ceremony..a friend who attended a few such rituals said that the tea reminded him more of an australian acacia pharmahuasca he'd tried than the P. virdis type brews he was used to drinking ..

..it may be more widespread than previously thought, & mis-identified as M. hostilis (the flowers, while of similar shape, are distinct, as is the texture of the leaves)

don't know the source of "DMT/NMT", but it's a pretty good bet...


...
ps.wira, for your wiki corrections, i believe there are independent tests confirming DMT in Acacia seyal (africa), i will search refs...

.

 

[nen888]

..little bit more for your wiki corrections wira..

other African acacias i think there is further evidence for DMT are:

A. albidia (also Middle East) - several extraction reports from Israel, assays with P. harmla, published thesis somewhere on it's use with harmala..
A. laeta - see ref. 6 african list, p.3 this thread & see below
A. senegal - several independent reports alkaloids/DMT, see refs af. list p3 here
A. siberiana - ref. 6 af. list, see below

..around 1999-2000 an senior 'associate' at shaman australis showed 'R' and myself a number of independent GCMS tests on acacias, including some of these species..the reference given by Pharm.Excp.blog may refer to personal communication or info. presented somewhere else (not the forum) ..

..Acacia caven (Central & South America), seems to me fairly good indigenous ethnobotanic evidence of psychoactivity , will search out more references..

ps. a relative of the infamous A. Crowley does, i've been told, research entheogens, with regards to Acacia catechu (Asia, India) (will find out his name)


might look for some experiential/spiritual reports and notes to balance out all the lists soon..

 

[wira]

That would be Michael Crowley I assume, the guy I mentioned under catechu.
Incidentally, a friend told me about this Sufi group who take a revived for of haoma in the form of Syrian rue, with chacruna grown elsewhere, or with an Australian Acacia, the identity of which I don't think they have mentioned. I thought perhaps they were using catechu, but that's not Australian. (It would be good if this Crowley guy actually tested his catechu brew theory before making the claim he made.) Link here - The Fatimiya Sufi Order and Ayahuasca | Reality Sandwich
Regarding Acacia jurema, I know of the person who got these folks to try their jurema with Syrian rue, but where did you read that they were actually using Acacia jurema? I wasn't aware of that. If that is actually known to be the case, then I certainly understand the claim for DMT in that species, but we need a proper reference.

Re: albidia (albida?), I would love to see that work if it's been published. Any leads on that?
I'm satisfied that caven is probably psychoactive, due to the uses I mentioned, it's just the alkaloid content that is unknown, because the wikipedia list says it contains tryptamines with no reference.

With most of the stuff that inexplicably shows up on lists, unless it's stated otherwise, I tend to assume that web users are simply compiling lists from other people's lists, mistakes and all, and as this goes on you pick up what seem to be multiple references (where references are given at all), which are all actually from the one source. So, unless someone writes that what they are reporting is from their own new research (or that of someone they know - not "I heard it from a friend of a friend"), I assume it's not.

By the way, as you can I forgot to post the reference list as the end of my last post, but you can just go to the wikipedia page for that. Anyway, we'll get that page in better shape very soon! Good to have a chance to talk through some of the contentious entries.

 

[wira]

That victoriae report sounds interesting, too!
By the way, was the Israeli stuff you mention the 2008 paper by Benny Shanon? (google israel acacia harmala and you should get a link to the pdf)
He mentions albida in there, amongst others, as containing DMT, but the reference is Shulgin, and Shulgin's listings of some of these African species was in error as I've mentioned. To clarify - I did ask Sasha about those listings some time ago to confirm that they didn't come from some other paper I wasn't aware of. He couldn't remember exactly which paper it was from - as you all probably know TIHKAL isn't referenced very well (you have to figure out for yourself which reference was the origin of what you just read, with the plant listings), and many bibliographic entries don't list the titles of the papers, hindering the ability to narrow it down - but there are no other research papers that I could find to support these listings. Now, please understand I'm not saying outright that because of this, the species never contains DMT. I'm just getting the references straight, and conflicting reports are welcomed as long as they are referenced, or from within your circle of friends and their own findings.

 

[wira]

I notice you mention there had been several extraction reports on albida, which I presume is not related to the Shanon paper. Where did you read of those extractions, nen888?
The clarification of phytochemical reports regarding obtusifolia is helpful, but personally I don't think that degree of detail is necessary for the wikipedia page. I think we should keep it to just basic but accurate summations of the state of knowledge, with proper attribution of references. However what you do with that is up to you. I'm a bit confused with the 1997/8 entry. What led to Mulga reporting this from someone in Poland? Were they growing obtusifolia over there, or did he send a sample to someone there for testing? I would say the magicmolekylar site would have been reporting a summary of a previously known report, rather than producing their own test results, so I wouldn't treat this as a separate reference, especially when the essential info is backed up already by references of known provenance.

By the way, I've been told that the unidentified plant that yatiquiri shared pictures of on page 4 of this thread is most likely Paraserianthes lophantha ssp. lophantha. It's an Australian plant, but has been reported growing in Bolivia, from a quick googling. I presume it's been introduced there, as with Acacia retinodes and related forms thereof.

 

[nen888]

..wira wrote

I notice you mention there had been several extraction reports on albida, which I presume is not related to the Shanon paper. Where did you read of those extractions, nen888?

..these are first-hand reports from several Israeli friends who are involved in the albida-based spiritual revival..i guess it's like A. floribunda, enthusisatic bio-assay tales with no actual chemical data..but, i'm sure not all of Shulgin's Tikhal africa references are mistaken..i just don't have access to any of my once big collection of papers/references..i'm sure there was an indian paper on a couple of african acacias..

the detail on A. obtusifolia was a way of saying that, chemically, usually the predominant alkaloid is infact NMT, even if the anecdotal reports indicate strong effects..definately an independent test was done in either Poland or Germany around 1997/8 (DMT,5meoDMT,tryptamine) that was reported to 'E' by Mulga (not performed by him)..one not common strain tested by Mulga was predominantly dmt, with little nmt...and the evidence indicates it all varies seasonally..

..ps thanks for the tip-off on yatiqiri's latest tree..will look up Paraserianthes lophantha..looks very interesting...

 

[nen888]

..for sinful_speed, and others around the world, here are some images of
Acacia auriculiformis, aussie native, extensively planted all over..
..found by Trout and friends to contain 5meoDMT (but there could be DMT as well, only one
test as far as i know)
..the pods can be a little less twisted but are usually c.1cm wide (twice width maidenii)

 

[sinful_speed]

Thanks dehingoli and nen888! That is definitely what it is. I got some pods that look exactly like that. SWIM's first trip was some Jungle 5-Meo-DMT back in '97. SWIM is interested in finding out which local acacias here in the P.I. would be a good source of spice. =D

Much love!

 

[nen888]

hi..probably the best source in PI would be A. confusa..take care..
[EDIT: & thanks again dehingoli for the auriculiformis tip..]

& yatiqiri, your tree you posted on P.4 of this thread is
Paraserianthes lophantha subsp. lophantha (formerly Albizia lophantha)
(Cape Leeuwin wattle) native to Western Australia, naturalized warm areas around the globe..
albizzia's contain alkaloids (not well explored yet), so there may well be something interesting
going on in there..no chemical tests i've heard of..
(thanks wira's friends for ID:wink: )

 

[nen888]

..here's a few more images of A. acuminata (South & Western Australia),
1.2-1.8% DMT bark, 0.6% leaves (consistent findings) frost tolerant..highly recommended & quite wonderful..the 'Raspberry Jam Tree'..
numerous bio-assays...

 

[wira]

sinful speed - do you know the botanical source of the 'jungle 5-MeO-DMT' you tried?

Be aware Trout & Friends' 5-MeO positive for auriculiformis was tentative, and further work needs to be done.

nen - floribunda has been analysed independently in recentish years by TLC/GCMS in regards to DMT content (and other alkaloids), but I'm not sure whether people tried it out before that was known, or as a result of it.
The magikmolekylar site could have gotten the info as it was published in the Entheogen Review in 2005 - unless they had it online before then, in which case they could have been told so by Mulga.
I'm not meaning to attack what you're saying, but in my line of research I have found internet sources to often be very unreliable, and if I must use them as the only reference to something, I want to make sure that it's reliable, and if I'm still in doubt I'll note the information with a provisio. So, my tendency is to assume something is not a reliable primary or secondary source unless there's good reason to think that it is. I will question everything that isn't clearly established (as well as some stuff that is!), it's nothing personal.

 

[nen888]

wira you wrote

I will question everything that isn't clearly established (as well as some stuff that is!), it's nothing personal.

..no offense taken at all wira, good on you..!

i'm more pointing out that we always need a few leads via rumour, and that this is a web-site, not an academic text,
but, let's definately keep the standard of info. high here, for sure..


ps. reference 1966 of Acacia harpophylla containing DMT, 'll get back to you...

 

[wira]

I guess I'm coming at this (in this thread at least) from the perspective of sorting out which info can be considered solid enough to go on the wikipedia page. Uncertain or possibly dubious listings can certainly still be mentioned, but we should note that they are not confirmed.
In more general discussion here, I'm certainly open to following up rumoured plants. You're absolutely right that such rumours do often turn out to be based in fact, or lead to new discoveries. But sometimes rumours are just rumours

I forgot to respond re: Shulgin and the African Acacias.
I'm certainly not saying that none of the other species he listed as contaning DMT will never be found to, in fact, contain it (at least some of the time!). I'm just disputing his listing based on the references given. As I mentioned earlier, these listings are problematic because the references are not given in the listings. When I asked Sasha about this years ago, and suggested that they had been mistakenly included from Khalil & Elkhir 1975, he accepted that and could not think of any other paper it could have come from. I've checked through all possible references in the TIHKAL bibliography, and encourage others to do the same in case I missed something, but if there IS a genuine reference to those species containing DMT that was used by Sasha, then he must have accidentally left it out of the bibliography.
It seems a logical deduction that the source of the presumed mistake was a misreading of Khalil & Elkhir's paper, because all of the African Acacias he listed were the same ones analysed by those guys, but only two of them were found to contain DMT in the leaves (and then, only in very low yields). Ott also made a similar slip-up in the first edition of Pharmacotheon, but he didn't list all of the species in question, and he fixed the mistake in Ayahuasca Analogues which came out not long after. And, Sasha made a similar mistake with listing Uncaria spp. as containing harmine and harmaline; again, I sourced all of the relevant papers on Uncaria phytochemistry that he cited - as well as others - and they didn't support the claim. One did, however, mention them amongst the alkaloids used as reference standards, but they were not found in any of the species analyzed. I asked Sasha about this too, and again he agreed that the source of the mistaken listing was most likely from hastily reading the paper in question, and he couldn't think of any other source for the information.
These mistakes can be made by anyone, and even very bright minds such as Sasha and Jonathan can slip up occasionally when working with large amounts of technical data, or when some data is received second-hand rather than from a direct reading of the published papers. Also, Sasha is of course primarily a chemist, and his botany isn't something that he's that thorough with in his listings, which can be seen in some multiple listings of the same species under various synonyms (the same is true of many chemists and pharmacologists who work in phytochemistry, going from some of the journal articles I've read over the years). I'm not knocking him at all and I love the man, just saying that this is fair enough when you have such specialized knowledge and a high work load. It takes a lot of time to double check every little detail, especially in areas that are not your specialty.

 

[sinful_speed]

Thanks again! I might be searching the wrong areas. I might have to travel north to find some A. Confusa if there are any. Is there a basic field guide for acacias that I can view online?

Much Love!

 

[nen888]

..sinful_speed..with around 2000 species world-wide, it's hard to find a complete 'field guide', but try going to Species Gallery tick the 'Asia' region box, and search alphabetically by name..

..i have heard A. confusa is generally a 'mountain tree', but not certain about the P.I.

...

 

[wira]

By the way, I had another look at that recent angustissima paper, and it's N-methyltyramine, not N-methyltryptamine.

 

[nen888]

..interesting wira..that A. angustissima was used in an Aztec pyschoactive beverage makes it very interesting for research, not to mention what kind of variability there may be..there is evidence that tyramine (& derivatives) cause hallucinations (entheogenic effects) when consumed with MAOIs...

hoping to get some time to post a few acacia experiences soon...

 

[chocobeastie]

so, great you got this thread rolling nen888!

I have tested A. Dallachiana once and nothing came out..

Also, I have tested Bineverta and although the bark tasted strong, nothing came out in the wash.

Acacia melanoxylon - never got anything out of it. Species in Victoria and NSW are completely different. But never got any love with the Victoria species in a one off extraction. Maybe it is variably seasonal?

As for the "other" black wattle, it seems that Mearnsii or something like it has tryptamines. But ID is a bitch, and there seems to be so many variants and sub-species. I got 1.2% out of one tree once. It was a beautiful smoke too!

I tested a dozen trees around it which came up with nothing, and even went back to the same tree a few months later in winter and got nothing.

I have it on very good word there people in Israel extracting from Acacias (don't know the names), but they have said, it is very seasonal and I can't get any more data on it than that.

There was a poster on ayahuasca forums from Israel called "hopeless messiah" who was using acacia from Israel in his brews as well.