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*Water Only* Tek -- work in progress

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Well the magic of this process is that you can always add or boil off water as necessary. But for the initial tea brew, starting with more is usually better IMO. That way you have more *total* alkaloids in solution, but the *concentration* is less. If you plan to re-steep the plant matter for a second extraction, this isn't as big of a factor. I would say enough to cover the plant matter pretty well with some liquid volume to spare, but not so much that filtering it or boiling down is going to take a week 😉

After you've filtered the first brew, you can boil it down to whatever volume you feel is good. As a rule, smaller volume is better here (allows the liquid DMT to crystallize more easily), but you don't want it so thick that it's not going to filter, or too viscous for crystals to form easily. Imagine sort of thick (but fluid) soysauce, or just really, really strong coffee. That consistency worked for SWIM.

Best of luck! Those should be some amazing looking crystals :d

-- Wanderer
 
SWIM started 20g of MHRB with Calcium Hydroxide as the base. Did a light boil for maybe 45 minutes or so. He added some extra water at some point in the boil, but as it got to 45 minutes it was already low enough in volume he figured he would just stop there. He let it sit for a bit to settle. It ended up being only like 100-150ml of liquid so he just did the filter of that right to adding the Calcium Hydroxide. He will probably use a bit more water next time, but the size of the pan and only 20g MHRB made it so that it reduces quite a bit while boiling it.

This was stirred and turned more of a very creamy coffee color than deep black. He thinks plenty of Lime was added. PH strips only go up to 10, but they were easily 10 before some more was added. This was left to sit for many hours at room temp and is being moved to the fridge now.

SWIM can see what appears to be crystallization on the top opaque oil like layer. Camera is not good enough to show that. Not as bubbly and clumpy like Dagger's picture, but maybe this is due to lime vs Lye.

I'll update when SWIM has let it sit for more time in the fridge.
 

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Interesting stuff Malaclypse! Thanks for having SWIY look into lime for us.

Looking at the picture you attached, I'm wondering what that white layer at the bottom is, and why the solution isn't blackish? Perhaps the wrong picture was attached?

But indeed! The crystals should start to form on the top of the liquid (and some underneath the surface).

Good work!
 
Would liquid dmt contain any lye at all? I mean, it is a liquid and the crystals forms from this liquid. The crystals does not form when you add the lye, this comes later. Speaking of crystals, I think there is a very small crystal starting to form in my jar.
 
Oh you're on your way Dagger! I noticed slow crystalization over the first couple days, but the last couple is when they all sorta just grouped together pretty quickly into large crystals.

Liquid DMT is hydrophobic, and will therefore be unable to suck up any hydroxide ions (I don't think there are any binding sides even available on the molecule for that sort of thing). Nor should the actual crystal structure itself have any lye in it, but small pockets of water might trap some residual lye in aqueous solution. This can be easily remedied by filtering out the crystals and rinsing them with water (you can leave them in the filter and just run a lot of fresh water over them or take them out of the filter and put them in new water; they should stay hydrophobic while any lye will be sucked into solution, then you can simply filter out the clean crystals).
 
Here is a picture taken about 24 hours after freebasing.
If you look in the middle of the picture, upper side, there is a small crystal there, around the crystal it is black.
 

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gibran2 said:
I would love to experiment with this, but unfortunately (or fortunately, I suppose) I have more “product” than I will ever use. Not a bad problem to have, but it does discourage one from doing experimental extractions. 😉
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Always room for experimentation! :) Although I wish I had your "problem". ;)

Eagerly awaiting an update Malaclypse. I don't have any lye, so I'm hoping lime will work as well.

Oh and btw, amazing thread Wanderer. ;)
 
Very nice work everyone, especially to the Wanderer and Dagger1

I remember Dagger, you had tried to basify MHRB brew in the past but nothing had changed (no liquid forming on top, no crystals forming on the bottom), right? Could it be possible that you link us to what you had done? I think you had acidified the brew with vinegar and based with sodium carbonate, right?

Wandered used no acid for the acid cook and based with NaOH; NaOH for some reason is better at driving crystallisation of dmt out of aqueous solution, this may be the reason of the current success.

Now SWIM is really interested at trying gthis out himself!
 
Just had to say THANK you for all the good work in this thread Wanderer and friends, this is pretty good info and if end results are comparable to other teks, Ill be tossing all them nasty chems out in the trash~!

Dagger, that pic you posted is beautiful ~ Good art~!

THANK YOU!
 
This seems like a very promising TEK, but no one has yet posted yields! If yields are comparable to standard NP extraction TEKs, then we’ve got some real innovation here.

Ideally, a standard TEK done side-by-side with this water-only TEK with equal quantities of MHRB from the same batch would give a good indication of relative yield.

@ Dagger - that photo of yours looks like a Mandelbrot image!
 

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Oh wow, Dagger! That looks amazing. And that's a lot more liquid DMT than I had in my jar, and I still got a good amount out of it. Expect a lot of tasty crystals, I'd say 😉

I'd love to post yields, gibran, but I lack an accurate enough scale. I am hoping either Dagger or Malaclypse will have access to one.

On a theoretical note, however, I don't see any reason why this tek wouldn't be less efficient than a non-polar one. All the NP layer would do in this case would be to suck up all the liquid DMT into another solution; it doesn't necessarily suck any more out of aqueous solution since it cannot directly interface with it. The base in this case needs to liberate the DMT salts before any NP solvent can interact with them. In this tek I simply decided to remove the NP solvent and allow the DMT to crystallize with itself, thus allowing it to be able to be filtered out.

Still, scientific theory and scientific evidence are two vastly different things. Experimentation is never a bad thing here, so perhaps someone trying this methods should do a NP pull on the left over tea, or like you said, do a side-by-side with the same amount of plant-material.

-- Wanderer
 
Wanderer said:
...On a theoretical note, however, I don't see any reason why this tek wouldn't be less efficient than a non-polar one. All the NP layer would do in this case would be to suck up all the liquid DMT into another solution; it doesn't necessarily suck any more out of aqueous solution since it cannot directly interface with it. The base in this case needs to liberate the DMT salts before any NP solvent can interact with them. In this tek I simply decided to remove the NP solvent and allow the DMT to crystallize with itself, thus allowing it to be able to be filtered out.
...
Click to expand...
One possibility is that some liquid DMT is loosely bound to small particles suspended in solution. Bringing such particles into contact with a NP solvent might release them into the solvent. (Of course, it’s also possible that the liquid DMT on the surface is acting a bit like a NP solvent.) So without the use of a NP solvent, some DMT might be lost. This is purely speculation, and side-by-side extractions would be needed to determine what is really happening.
 
Infundibulum said:
I remember Dagger, you had tried to basify MHRB brew in the past but nothing had changed (no liquid forming on top, no crystals forming on the bottom), right? Could it be possible that you link us to what you had done? I think you had acidified the brew with vinegar and based with sodium carbonate, right?
Click to expand...
I couldn't find any reference, but I may have mentioned it in some threads. I have tried this method before, but I probably didn't have the patience to wait for the liquid dmt to fully form on the surface. Goes to show that patience is a virtue.
However, I have always used an acid, notably acetic acid to extract from mimosa. It could possibly have something to do with it, making liquid dmt harder to form. I used lye to test it.

In this test, I did not exactly follow wanderes method. Instead I just poured warm water over the powdered mimosa, then added it to a THP setup. Then I kept adding more water until the brew that came out was relatively pale. As I did this I reduced the brew at the same time. When it was reduced to 120ml, I cooled it down before filtering it, as more particles will fall out of solution when it cools.

I'd love to do a few more tests, mainly with lower amounts of water used compared to mimosa. My brew wasn't viscous at all, so I could probably reduce it down to 30-40 ml. It may be that the relatively large amounts of water used may retain some of the dmt freebase, and that lowering the amount of water could increase the yield.
 
One thought occured to me:

The density of dmt is 1.099g/ml, that means that (be it in liquid or solid form) it should sink in pure water. People who do the basic water crystallisation tek already know this. Why it flows in the experiments of the Wanderer and Dagger is possibly the result of an aquous solution (MHRB extract in this case) that is denser than dmt itself.

The above means that in a too dilute solution of MHRB (such as the unreduced brew and the result of THP) DMT may not float at all after the basing. This might be an important detail for people to keep in mind.

What surprises me most is that since DMT freebase floats, the basic MHRB solution must be fairly dense, definitely more than 1.100g/ml. Judging from my limited experience in densitometry, this is quite dense (it corresponds to a solution as dense as 1 litre of water with 300g of sugar in it) and I'd neve rsuspect tthat MHRB decoction can get as dense.
 
Dagger said:
Infundibulum said:
I remember Dagger, you had tried to basify MHRB brew in the past but nothing had changed (no liquid forming on top, no crystals forming on the bottom), right? Could it be possible that you link us to what you had done? I think you had acidified the brew with vinegar and based with sodium carbonate, right?
Click to expand...
I couldn't find any reference, but I may have mentioned it in some threads. I have tried this method before, but I probably didn't have the patience to wait for the liquid dmt to fully form on the surface. Goes to show that patience is a virtue.
However, I have always used an acid, notably acetic acid to extract from mimosa. It could possibly have something to do with it, making liquid dmt harder to form. I used lye to test it.
...
Click to expand...


The idea of separating DMT by allowing liquid DMT to float on the surface of a basified MHRB solution is not new. Here’s a post concerning this topic made nearly a year ago:

Infundibulum said:
gibran2 said:
It made me think – could DMT be separated from solution this way – without using any solvent at all? Heat the solution just hot enough to melt the DMT, allow it to float to the top, cool the solution and remove the solidified DMT?

My thinking is that a mimosa “soup” doesn’t allow the DMT to freely float to the top as it does with a fairly clean solution. Any thoughts?
Click to expand...

You're right on that; dmt freebase precipitates out of basic solution (SWIM did and reported it ages ago, look there), but it needs a fairly "clean" solution (e.g. dmt, water and base) to work. It will not work on a dirty basic MHRB solution where al sorts of stuff will not only prevent dmt from separating but will also form clathrate complexes thus further preventing anything frm happening.

BTW, dmt is denser than water, this means that it normally sinks, doesn't float. In your case it floated; this because the ionic composition of your aqueous solution (sodium hydroxide+sodium acetate) apparently made the water more dense than dmt. Sort of an object that sinks in water but floats when the generous amount of salt is dissolved in water.
Click to expand...
 
Dagger said:
Infundibulum said:
The density of dmt is 1.099g/ml, that means that (be it in liquid or solid form) it should sink in pure water.
Click to expand...
Wouldn't adding lye cause the liquid to become more dense? I added about 5g lye to 120ml.
And if you look at The 10 minutes golden wax precipitation method, you can see that here too the liquid dmt floats.
Click to expand...
Yes, adding a solute (lye, salt, sugar etc) will make the solution denser. How denser, it is hard to know without calculations and measurements. Depending on the density dmt will either float, sink or stay suspended in the solution (in the latter case the aqueous density is exactly as dmt's).

Each of these water crystallisation teks uses different materials, different rations of salts/bases/water and of course empiricism and nobody pays too much attention whether it floats or sinks; either way dmt freebase can be easily retrieved. But in the case of the unclean, pitch black and murky MHRB soup I think there' s a great practical interest in making dmt float, hence I think it is important to emphasize on a concentrated solution.
 
Wanderer said:
Interesting stuff Malaclypse! Thanks for having SWIY look into lime for us.

Looking at the picture you attached, I'm wondering what that white layer at the bottom is, and why the solution isn't blackish? Perhaps the wrong picture was attached?

But indeed! The crystals should start to form on the top of the liquid (and some underneath the surface).

Good work!
Click to expand...

Nope that is the correct picture. I'm no expert so I can't say why the bottom layer looks creamish in color. If you notice the coloration on the side of the jar it seems SWIM's coffee filters might let some of the MHRB particles through (He used finely powdered root bark). But that is what happened after adding the lime and stirring. Can't see the exact pH, but as I said SWIM had the PH at a minimum of 10 according to his pH strips and more lime was added after the fact. Perhaps that is just how it will look with lime vs lye? Endlessness mentioned that lime is not very soluble in water so maybe that has something to do with it?
 
Malaclypse, i may be wrong here, but looking at your photo and the info you provided, it looks like you're trying to do a wet-tek using lime, which will not work. Lime is not very soluble in water at all, this is what you see collecting on the bottom of the jar, all the lime that won't dissolve. If you are using lime, you have to use a minimal amount of water, it looks like you are using far too much here. Lime is for dry-tek's, lye and sodium carb can be used for wet-teks.

As for the dmt floating on top of solution, SWIM has seen this happen when crystallizing out of distilled water using sodium carb, forms beautiful lillypad crystals on top of the water if you layered it on top instead of mixing quickly.
 
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