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whats wrong with rue?

Migrated topic.
A

azar

Rising Star
so i hear all the time that you shouldnt take broad spectrum alks from syrian rue because someof its alks are toxic. In particular i'm thinking of the tek were you make a tea, base it, let it settle, wash with water a few times, tada!
The reason i ask is because it seems no one has a problem with tea with 3g of rue in it, but the equivalent alkaloid extract is now suddenly dangerous?
Whats going on there?
 
Many experiences show that when Rue is previously toasted its bad components are higly reduced
and the good alks are more active.
Toasted it tastes and smells fantastic.
 
care to back up your claims gazal? Is it subjective experience only or where there tests done to confirm what you are saying?

Azar, I made a thread about the 'unwanted alkaloids' here:


Its not that they are straight away toxic, at least not for men, in the dosages taken for MAOI inhibition.. Women may feel more discomfort due to uterotonic activity of those alkaloids, and specially its very dangerous for pregnant women as these alkaloids are abortifacient. A straight rue tea or swallowing the seeds will mean you are ingesting these alkaloids. So if you want to avoid them, have to do a salt precipitation step (check wiki for harmala extraction guide) because that step doesnt precipitate those alkaloids
 
ELNess, thanks for the dedicated thread.

yes: that about toxicity is an empiric observation.
The alks potentiation claim is based on the largely reported conversion
of harmine\harmaline by heat.
 
From what I’ve read, vasicine and vasicinone, other than having abortifacient properties (pregnant women should stay far away from these alkaloids), are actually beneficial health-wise:

… has been recommended by Ayurvedic physicians for the management of various types of respiratory disorders. It possesses potent bronchodilatory, expectorant, anti-spasmodic and anti-septic properties. It also possesses significant antimicrobial activity against gingival inflammation and pyorrhea. It has also shown Uterine stimulant activity, moderate hypotensive activity and thrombopoeitic activity.
…
Recent investigations on vasicine showed bronchodilatory activity comparable to theophylline, which is a methylxanthine drug used in therapy for respiratory diseases such as COPD or asthma.
Click to expand...

Here’s the source of the quote.
 
After all Peganum is a very safe plant with a large spectrum of effects and benefits.
It's a panacea and great gift of nature: its antiviral properties are used also in herbal remedy for AIDS.
When absorbed in concentrated amount could bring some ***benign*** discomfort,
but there is absolutely nothing wrong with rue.
 
gazal said:
It's a panacea and great gift of nature: its antiviral properties are used also in herbal remedy for AIDS.
Click to expand...
Please, please, please...as you have already been asked...cite your sources!!! You are making unfounded claims with no support and that is simply not how we operate at the Nexus. Anyone can claim anything cures something else, but without actual scientific or empirical data, there is no merit to throwing out random, unfounded statements. You claim your statement about rue is "empiric" and not subjective, yet you failed to cite any empirical evidence...so, where is it?
 
SnozzleBerry said:
gazal said:
It's a panacea and great gift of nature: its antiviral properties are used also in herbal remedy for AIDS.
Click to expand...
Please, please, please...as you have already been asked...cite your sources!!! You are making unfounded claims with no support and that is simply not how we operate at the Nexus. Anyone can claim anything cures something else, but without actual scientific or empirical data, there is no merit to throwing out random, unfounded statements. You claim your statement about rue is "empiric" and not subjective, yet you failed to cite any empirical evidence...so, where is it?
Click to expand...

the link i put is for general info. If you need more about the AIDS issue, yes you're right.
I'm not at my own PC now and here i cannot be more precise; it is a pdf from a medical meeting in China
where indian doctors presented their herbal combo against AIDS, later i will post more about this reference but I have lost the link to download the paper.

When i said "empiric" it coincides with a subjective knowledge and finding. In other words :when gently toasted, rue do not cause any noticeable disturbance in multiple bioassays I personally know of, without any loss in potency; it pulverizes better and gains a fine taste and smell.
-------------
UPDATE:
----
CONFERENCE
1-3 DEC 2006, TIANJIN, CHINA
Highly Effective Unani Anti-HIV Drug,
proven by DNA-PCR Antigen Test.
Research Paper Presented at:
WORLDS AIDS CONFERENCE
1-3 DEC 2006, TIANJIN, CHINA
Theme: Take Action, Stop AIDS!
Dr. Sayyed B. A. Kareem, MD, HOOTONE REMEDIES, Mumbai, India.
Authored by:
Dr. Sayyed B. A. Kareem, MD, HOOTONE REMEDIES, Mumbai, India.
Released by:
Dr. Nafis Sadik, (UN Special Envoy for HIV/AIDS in Asia & Pacific)
And Presented by : Sayyed Ashraf, CEO, HOOTONE REMEDIES

In the Session Ten : Development of Natural Products and TCM as Anti-HIV Drugs
Place: VIP Meeting Room, 2F, Tianjin Tianbao International Hotel
Time: 08:30-12:00, Dec. 3, 2006

In the Presence of:
Dr. Nafis Sadik, (UN Special Envoy for HIV/AIDS in Asia & Pacific)
Dr. Luc Montagnier, (Pioneer in HIV/AIDS Disvoeries)
Dr. Avram Hershko, (Nobel Prize Laureate in Chemistry in 2004)
Dr. Rulf M. Zinkernagel, (1996 Nobel Prize Laureate in Medicine)
Dr. Richard J. Roberts (The Nobel Prize in Medicine 1993)
Professor Yunzhen Cao, Clinical Director
Dr. Avram Hershko
––
The World Health Organization
Laboratory Regional Program on AIDS WHO Regional Office
Lab of Retrovirus Research Division of Viral Products CBER, FDA
Vaccine and Prevention Research Program Division,
Human Immunology Laboratory¬NIH
Molecular Targets Development Program£¬NCI
Laboratory of Biochemistry NCI
National AIDS Research Institute
ABSTRACT: -
The major goal of this research paper is
the action of Unani Anti-HIV drug against
HIV through the observations made under a
controlled condition with the help of superior
facilities. Another, important goal of this paper is
to how this Unani anti-HIV drug has an
edge over the other ART drug presently in use for
The major purpose of the entire effort is to develop
an effective therapy for the HIV patients so that
they can be safeguarded against symptomatic
problems, opportunistic infections, AIDS related
complex and other socio-economic concerns
leading to poor quality life & early death.
At the same time it also aims to evolve the effective
therapy to be very practical, cost effective and
safe. And finally this paper projects a significant
breakthrough in HIV Treatment, observed in the
patients treated with this Unani drug …
The paper focus on the research & development,
finding's & observations of the Unani Anti-HIV
drug HOO-IMM PLUS against HIV/ AIDS and
thus emphasize on the following issues: -
ORGANIZATIOIN INVOLVED:-
INTRODUCTION: -
Hootone Remedies
HAKH Medical Foundation
Hooone Life Sciences


Composition of the Unani Anti-HIV drugs: -
HOO-IMM PLUS (A)
1)Saffron (Zafran) Pg292* - Restorative, builds
up body's defence mechanism thereby
strengthening the immunity system considerably.
2)Orchis Latifolia (Salab Misri) Pg147* - Tonics
for blood, vital energy and vital essence.
3)Pipper Longum (Phil Phil Daras) Pg 119* -
Strengthens up spleen, lymphatic glands.
Activates the endocrine glands of the
body.
4) Peganum Harmala (Hurmul) Pg 61*
Increases level of cellular immunity; inhibits
replication of viral activities.
5)Pipper Nigrum ) Pg 336* - A
Pulmonary tonic, important in long term
strengthening of the lungs.
Click to expand...

Four other HOO-IMM PLUS compositions are described in this six pages document.


------------------
II UPDATE:
------------------

Peganum harmala Syrian Rue, Harmal peganum PFAF Plant Database

Peganum harmala is a PERENNIAL growing to 0.6 m (2ft) by 0.5 m (1ft 8in). See above for USDA hardiness. It is hardy to UK zone 8. The seeds ripen in September. The species is hermaphrodite (has both male and female organs). Suitable for: light (sandy) and medium (loamy) soils and prefers...
www.pfaf.org
Medicinal Uses


Plants For A Future can not take any responsibility for any adverse effects from the use of plants. Always seek advice from a professional before using a plant medicinally.

Abortifacient; Alterative; Aphrodisiac; Digestive; Diuretic; Emmenagogue; Galactogogue; Hallucinogenic; Narcotic; Ophthalmic; Parasiticide; Uterine tonic; Vermifuge; Miscellany.

Alterative[46, 169]. The fruit and seed are digestive, diuretic, hallucinogenic, narcotic and uterine stimulant[192, 238]. They are taken internally in the treatment of stomach complaints, urinary and sexual disorders, epilepsy, menstrual problems, mental and nervous illnesses[238]. The seed has also been used as an anthelmintic in order to rid the body of tapeworms[240]. This remedy should be used with caution and preferably under the guidance of a qualified practitioner since excessive doses cause vomiting and hallucinations[238]. The seeds contain the substance 'harmine' which is being used in research into mental disease, encephalitis and inflammation of the brain[192]. Small quantities stimulate the brain and are said to be therapeutic, but in excess harmine depresses the central nervous system[192]. A crude preparation of the seed is more effective than an extract because of the presence of related indoles[192]. Consumption of the seed in quantity induces a sense of euphoria and releases inhibitions. It has been used in the past as a truth drug[169, 187]. The oil obtained from the seed is said to be aphrodisiac[192]. The oil is also said to have galactogogue, ophthalmic, soporific and vermifuge properties[192]. The seed is used externally in the treatment of haemorrhoids and baldness[238]. The whole plant is said to be abortifacient, aphrodisiac, emmenagogue and galactogogue[240]. A decoction of the leaves is used in the treatment of rheumatism[240]. The root has been used as a parasiticide in order to kill body lice[240]. It is also used internally in the treatment of rheumatism and nervous conditions[254].

Other Uses
Oil; Parasiticide; Dye; Incense; Miscellany; Oil.

A red dye is obtained from the seed[46, 61]. It is widely used in Western Asia, especially as a colouring for carpets[192]. The ripe seed contains 3.8 - 5.8% of the alkaloids harmine, harmaline, harmalol and peganine[240]. Ineffective as a contact poison, they are active in vapour form where they are effective against algae, in higher concentrations to water animals and lethal to moulds, bacteria and intestinal parasites[240]. The seed is used as an incense[145].
Click to expand...
 
the reason i ask is because swim currently has a salt saturated rue tea that has yealed no hamala alks. a lil brown mud at the bottom but thats it. swim thinks it didnt work because it was not reduced enough. (it was 4liters from 100g of rue)

the reason there is such a large volume of tea is because the crushed rue was only covered with water with a splash of vinegar, boiled, filtered, then repeated untill the tea stopped significantly glowing under black light. the resulting teas was combined and reduced to a lil under 4L so it could fit in a ice cream container after the salt was added. (4liters of tea + salt = more then a 4liter ice cream container can hold) the salt was added untill saturated then put into the ice cream container and put in the freezer.

no crystles resulted at all. nada. nothing. well, nothing but a lil mud i guess but nothing i wanted.

so i though people seem to be cool with drinking the tea, complete with toxic alks, whats the difference with that and haveing the pure alks without plant fats and seed husk and all that?

plus if all you have to do is add a base to the tea and wash with water a few times, swim may end up with some goodies!

one experiment was tried. i was once told by many ppl that maybe i added too much salt. so i thought, acetone mixes with water, and salt doesnt disolve in it. sure enough when acetone was added, all the pure white salt perciped out! very nice. then swim forgot about it. for months. when he got back, the acetone had seperated to a layer above the water layer. how strange... this was siphoned off and evaporated. it yealed some very interesting red xtals. the red xtals pointed strate up and were needle shaped. they were around 1mm high.

recently this was collected and put into a changa mix but not yet smoked. who knows what will happen?

anyway, now you know what swims planning to do, that is, base the salty rue tea, and get the alks out, does this sound like a bad idea? my logic says no, but my logic can be daft at times not fussed on the benifits, just if it will hurt me.
 
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