Why DMT Scares Me

[Voidmatrix]

I have been thinking about this the whole evening. How is it that some people seem to not be too scared of going all in into a psychedelic? Every single time I have to force myself. Once it starts I usually can more or less relax, but the anticipation and the moments just before are quite difficult. I would expect most people that have had more than just a few experiences to have at least a little bit of anxiety or worry. But it's clearly not the case, so in line with what I said about models, my model of that aspect of reality is not too useful and/or broken.

Nothing is broken. Some people just lack awareness, are extremely sure of themselves, and do not know what they are dealing with. I have seen this attitude quite a few times, and it never leads to a medicine path, only drug use. They may learn, but it is not a certainty. The modern curse of consumerism and individual freedom runs deep.
We are responsible only for ourselves. Have a good moral code and be kind to people. Some should never have partaken in any psychedelics
However, I am no God to decide people's fates

It ends up being conjecture and supposition when it's all said and done, but I have a few ideas about why people may approach psychedelics in such haphazard manners.

I'm not trying to be mean, but most people aren't that bright. They don't grasp or realize the implications and potential of what they're getting themselves into. They don't think about how far the rabbit hole goes. They live obliviously. Path of least resistance.

For some, they're masters at bypassing.

For some others, the shit may just be easy, some never get rocked, like people that go to the exact same place every time they do DMT.

In the end, I need to reframe a lot about this for myself, as I'm obviously approaching this in a not so apt way. And that reframe is going to encompass a whole lot that I've shared, here and elsewhere.

I am reminded of this quote oddly.



One love

 

[Voidmatrix]

There's something on the precipice of my mind to share, but it hasn't fully formed, fully crystalized, become descript in a manner that allows me to delineate it. So I'm going to sit here with it for a minute. Whatever it is, it can be said concisely, but as it fluxes and flows through my mind at present, it's a maelstrom of too many different aspects, factors, variables, and topics to state concisely.

@Panpsychic and I have spoken in another thread about this ringing we occasionally get in our ears that seems like hyperspace is beckoning us. A very unique ringing. When I was on my unnecessary medicine fast I experienced this ringing intensely, but stuck to the fast. Was this a signal of what I later determined was my unnecessary fast? Was this one of many cues and hints I'm not taking?

After all these years, and the evolution of this thread, amongst others, I feel a weight has been lifted. I'm at a loss on how to describe it. I feel alleviated of a pressure. I feel a confidence and a certain inner-fortitude. It's like finding an old toy that you love, lost, forgot about, and found... sort of.

I've smoalked several times since ending my fast. It hasn't been deep, but it's been nice, answering the call when it happens and noticing how often I appeal to the thoughts that make me lean towards not journeying. The space had to really pull me yesterday so that I'd get up and go grab the pipe, and it seemed like it wouldn't take no for an answer. I'd like to let loose and see what happens.

I don't what I'm trying to say. I'm sorry.

One love

 

[yatyas314]

Something I said in another thread is brought to mind by your statement. If no one knows everything, and no one is right all the time, then we all have beliefs that are false unbeknownst to us.

I have been chewing through this one since I read it, I just had a short dialogue with my wife about belief systems and wanted her opinion. That led to another conversation completely.......the point that has been sticking and I am trying to articulate here in this thread is about beliefs that are false unbeknownst to us. with my personal life experience and journey I can not help but notice that I keep ending up in some very deep entrenched thoughts and beliefs that are even further ratified by my altered state of consciousness. I think the real internal battle and fear is that even those things that you know and feel to be true to your core could dissolve. I don't know if I am doing a good job articulating this idea or personal fear of mine but for me its what drives me to explore further and further and push the boundaries of what I believe I am. That was a lot to say that having a healthy fear of DMT is part of DMT or at least it is for me.
Y

 

[doubledog]

I have been thinking about this the whole evening. How is it that some people seem to not be too scared of going all in into a psychedelic? Every single time I have to force myself. Once it starts I usually can more or less relax, but the anticipation and the moments just before are quite difficult. I would expect most people that have had more than just a few experiences to have at least a little bit of anxiety or worry. But it's clearly not the case, so in line with what I said about models, my model of that aspect of reality is not too useful and/or broken.

My opinion is that such people simple do not feel the same effects of psychedelics as "normal" people, most likely due to different set up of their minds/brains/bodies. It is similar to how amphetamines works differently in people with ADHD and in neuronormal people. There are also people with actual nonsensitivity to psychedelics, similar to how people on antidepressants can not feel it properly or at all.

Imo It's some form of disability, like color blindness or disgraphy.

It is wrong to call such people as experienced, when actualy they have some internal barriers. Of course, we should tolerate disabled people, but do not let them to rule the debate.

 

[northape]

I'm not trying to be mean, but most people aren't that bright.

That's what I was pointing to by saying most lack awareness. Sadly, the average level of awareness for most individuals is extremely low, and they use highly rigid egos to cope. All the macho attitude or expert attitude comes from there. People who know where dmt could lead are usually more reserved about making any proclamations.

I feel a weight has been lifted. I'm at a loss on how to describe it.

Psyche is a mystery. With all theories and techniques, we still know close to nothing about its workings. Then any attempt to work with your mind is a highly personal endeavor. Even psychotherapy can just generally guide you and depends on some system and a therapist's experience. At the end of the day, you're left alone with your mind...

How to deal with it when you yourself are its creation? I'm glad that years of struggle start to bear fruit. Your relationship with medicine is yours only. No one has much say when it comes to mind exploration. Even if you listen to someone, it should be tested and integrated. Sometimes we just need to give ourselves time and observe.

I think the real internal battle and fear is that even those things that you know and feel to be true to your core could dissolve. I don't know if I am doing a good job articulating this idea or personal fear of mine but for me its what drives me to explore further and further and push the boundaries of what I believe I am. That was a lot to say that having a healthy fear of DMT is part of DMT or at least it is for me.

I think you're doing a good job here. I have only faith & some hints about the final destination, but many sages say something similar to "truth starts where we end".
All our ideas about ourselves and this world are illusions. They are useful only while we're still asleep. Your personal exploration sounds a lot like self-investigation. We look at ourselves and take off layers of ideas. At the very end, only 'I am' or Being should remain. Then we're in God's territory, where the difference between us and cosmos blurs. No words can reach that place. It exists beyond them.

 

[blig-blug]

how amphetamines works differently in people with ADHD and in neuronormal people

I agree with your broader point, but I'm going to nitpick this. I'm not sure of how much of this difference in the effect of amphetamines is due to neurological differences, and how much is due to taking high doses of unknown purity for explicit euphoric purposes at irregular intervals vs. taking low doses of pharmaceutical grade amphetamine daily. I have used amphetamine at some points for studying, and always got the type of effects they say people with ADHD get (a feeling of calm, more capacity to direct the mind, motivation without euphoria or significant stimulation), but I don't have ADHD. The thing is, I was using >99% pure dextroamphetamine in 5mg doses, orally.

Here is an interesting article by a psychiatrist that reflects similarly about methamphetamine. The effects when prescribed for ADHD seem excellent, better than amphetamine and with less side effects. Whereas the effects in abusers are very different and often very destructive. However, the doses, dosing schedules, and ROAs tend to be very different.

Sorry for this totally off-topic post, but I've thought about this question in the past and I'm very unconvinced that there's something else going on with amphetamines and their apparent different effect on people with ADHD other than dose, expectations, ROA, purity, and schedule. However there's no way to know without a study looking at this.

 

[doubledog]

Thank you for this comment. I am not very experienced with amphetamines, I just took this broadly shared ( and maybe wrong) information as an example. What I wanted to describe is very common experience that people react very differently to substances.

Sometimes it is so prominent that if I had not see it with my eyes (that we took the exact same material) I would say that they consumed something else.

 

[blig-blug]

What I wanted to describe is very common experience that people react very differently to substances.

I agree with that, and with psychedelics it's much more prominent given the impact of set and setting. So there can be a lot of variation with the same substance and the same person.

I was also thinking about the differences in tendencies to neurosis and schizotypy. For example, my personal tendency is a lot towards neurosis and very little to schizotypy. I think a lot of both the discomfort and benefits that psychedelics have on me are related to it. They teach me to be less neurotic. And I have never felt a tendency to literally believe my psychedelic experiences or feel special about them. Even with some very profound ones that have affected my way of seeing reality. I think a lot of people in the Nexus are a little bit like this. And we all have seen posters that have literally believed their experiences in a psychotic way, I don't imagine they can be too neurotic. I'm sure there are many degrees between these extremes.

So I wonder what axes other than neurosis and schizotypy are there that can have this type of influence. Maybe there's one or two of them that influence how challenging the experience is perceived to be.

 

[doubledog]

Would be great if we could propose ot start to describe at least basic typology of psychedelic users
Set and setting proposals and harm reduction principles could be more personally targeted as a result.

 

[Voidmatrix]

If level or degree of awareness is vector and consideration with regard to those that can enter these spaces all willy nilly, then my own depth is a part of my own conundrum that we keep dancing around. Like, I don't know, but I  know what's up in these spaces... to say it in the broadest and most non-specific way possible.

I feel like more than belief, for me this touches on areas of felt senses, things deeply felt, informing how I orient myself to myself. As an example, someone told me yesterday, "sometimes talking to you is like reading Finnigans Wake." I was smitten by this person's compliment, but because I do what I do, still had to unpack it. Before I do, let's touch on something else: I mentioned a while ago that I hate my writing. I just feel so berefeft of direction when I do it and that I sound "dumb." Hold on to this nugget for a second. I told my therapist this week that I often journal about how I don't know how to journal or tap into what I want to say. Growing up, any necessity to put pen to paper was directed to me, not by me, and subsequently, I also had to be aware and concerned about some external opinion with regards to that (ie, school assignments and papers, my dad making me do homework in the summer, him making me write the same sentence repeatedly, etc). Coupled with a stifling atmosphere during those times that hindered access to a wide range of emotions and internal developmental experiences and we can summarize by saying I never learned to connect with myself in that way. Overall, I don't know how, or don't feel i know how to write or journal and make discernment on my own behalf about what I write. So I feel dumb. Finnegans Wake is supposed to be convoluted and confusing, it's experimental. Whereas, I speak as I do and write as I do with as much clarity as I can, but can still be as confusing, layered, nuanced, etc enough for someone to make the comment that spawned this paragraph.

I'm looking at the wrong end of the bell-curve. With regard to myself, I've spent most of my life oriented to the wrong end of the bell-curve... but I ain't that great.

One love

 

[blig-blug]

Overall, I don't know how, or don't feel i know how to write or journal and make discernment on my own behalf about what I write.

Me neither. It's only a problem if you want to do it. Do you journal because you want to, because you get something out of it, or because you think you should?

As an example, someone told me yesterday, "sometimes talking to you is like reading Finnigans Wake."

Did you ask (or do you know) whether it was because of the communication style or because of to the topic(s)? Some people aren't interested at all in philosophical topics, so they just mentally flag them as "hard" or "weird" and move on.

Also, I've observed that many people feel inadequate as soon as they can't immediately understand something, so they attribute it to a lack of capacity on their part and don't try. This is probably a consequence of schooling and tends to manifest in praise for how intelligent their interlocutor is, while pointing out that they're not too smart themselves. Often neither of those are true.

 

[northape]

Most people are dumb and have no interest in self-exploration. I was very dumb in my 20s before any psychedelics. Yes, my intellect was reasonably functioning, but there was no wisdom or self-awareness to speak of. However, I still remember how sure of myself I felt. Arrogance, pride, greed, and hate gave me energy for intellectual pursuits. It is a good thing that my life broke at some point, and I had enough interest in my inner states. Nowadays, I'm not sure about anything
I'm very skeptical and a recluse, but I'm much kinder, more alive, and content.

I see my path and the people who traveled along it for some time. Many decided to stay put in their identities, became drug users, and developed a number of escape techniques. Honestly, looking at yourself is far from easy. In modern society, it's not very valued either. They just need a fairly well-functioning gear with some consumer power.

I think your writing is fine, and you are just fine. Lots of self-doubt is a good fuel for introspection. It's better to be an oddball but alive and kicking, having the curiosity to dig deep and uncover what is what. Why think so much about writing? Just do what is necessary and gives you relief. If someone doesn't get it, it's for the best. Let them wonder and open to new perspectives. People get stuck in their own comfort zones. Where is the comet?
Edit: You can always be that comet for others

 

[Voidmatrix]

Me neither. It's only a problem if you want to do it. Do you journal because you want to, because you get something out of it, or because you think you should?

Yes

I was going to leave it at that, but really both. It's something I would like to do as I feel there's something there, and I feel it's something I ought to do, for my own benefit, though I'm not connected to that benefit as I ought to be.

Did you ask (or do you know) whether it was because of the communication style or because of to the topic(s)? Some people aren't interested at all in philosophical topics, so they just mentally flag them as "hard" or "weird" and move on.

Also, I've observed that many people feel inadequate as soon as they can't immediately understand something, so they attribute it to a lack of capacity on their part and don't try. This is probably a consequence of schooling and tends to manifest in praise for how intelligent their interlocutor is, while pointing out that they're not too smart themselves. Often neither of those are true.

This person and I are very very very very very very very close. They pointed out that a concise statement is often very layered and nuanced when interacting with me. Sometimes one has to sit and chew on a statement for a while. I'm only trying to communicate clearly and effectively

So there was no inadequacy or anything. They were just making an observation. The point though is that anyone can say anything like that and it's going to spark reflection because I don't know or feel or feel I know what they're talking about. It's like, "oh this capacity exists," until I forget about it and we go through this again in a different context.

But i tend to agree with your second observation. Someone with the vibe of authority granting praise that bolsters another in their own stead. This i feel is often how people gain confidence in their intelligence, whether the confidence is apt or not.

Why think so much about writing? Just do what is necessary and gives you relief. If someone doesn't get it, it's for the best. Let them wonder and open to new perspectives. People get stuck in their own comfort zones.

You said a lot of value, and appreciate it, but this right here i wanna play with a bit.

For the last piece and to tie into what @blig-blug mentioned with regard to inadequacy, I am extremely empathetic, and when people get "stuck," have to "wonder," etc, it often be uncomfortable, even painful for some, and I guess part of me wants to save them from that if I'm the cause. So an inner conflict there. I don't like making people feel uncomfortable.

The importance isn't so much around people getting it as much as them getting it is a metric for me to guagecmy own shit because my meter is faulty. Again, I'm assuming things with regard to myself on the "wrong" end of the bellcurve. And this happens because I don't have the internal sense to gauge and get a feel to the point that I reach the "relief."

One love

 

[northape]

For the last piece and to tie into what @blig-blug mentioned with regard to inadequacy, I am extremely empathetic, and when people get "stuck," have to "wonder," etc, it often be uncomfortable, even painful for some, and I guess part of me wants to save them from that if I'm the cause. So an inner conflict there. I don't like making people feel uncomfortable.

I see where you're coming from, but any change is usually painful and uncomfortable. Fierce compassion is often much more beneficial at this point in time.
Sure, never create unnecessary suffering, but kindness could be quite harsh too. I'm learning to live with the discomfort, knowing that it's all for the best.

 

[Voidmatrix]

I see where you're coming from, but any change is usually painful and uncomfortable. Fierce compassion is often much more beneficial at this point in time.
Sure, never create unnecessary suffering, but kindness could be quite harsh too. I'm learning to live with the discomfort, knowing that it's all for the best.

I'm learning this as well... it can just be often and intense. However, it's like I told someone who wanted to try and call me out on being contentious, why would I give the erroneous vibe of agreement when I don't agree with something? What good does that do anyone? Isn't that pretty inauthentic?

One love

 

[northape]

I'm learning this as well... it can just be often and intense. However, it's like I told someone who wanted to try and call me out on being contentious, why would I give the erroneous vibe of agreement when I don't agree with something? What good does that do anyone? Isn't that pretty inauthentic?

I'd say, be true to yourself. However, sometimes it's smart to play a role for the benefit of others. It's a question of wisdom and how far ahead you can see.
Always be truthful to yourself in your own mind, though. External games are much more flexible.
We all ought to develop patience

 

[ShadedSelf]

Yup, thats a hard one. The things is what they are seeing has nothing to do with you, I know from experience you can understand and validate their perspective, create harmony and help them move forward, but its a real tricky one.

The though of it being inauthentic is potentially ego games btw, its activating your sense of identity, you start thinking intead of being present.

 

[blig-blug]

The though of it being inauthentic is potentially ego games btw, its activating your sense of identity, you start thinking intead of being present.

I agree with you if we're talking about authenticity to refer to being faithful to some supposed "true self", whatever that means. But something similar can be framed as "doing what you know is right or correct", and instead of talking about inauthenticity we can talk about the cognitive dissonance that comes along with acting a different way you know you should due to external pressures or expectations.

 

[Voidmatrix]

The though of it being inauthentic is potentially ego games btw, its activating your sense of identity, you start thinking intead of being present.

I feel like this is a bit of a red herring. Let's think about all wide river and some inflatable boats all tied together with rope. Agreement is when all the boats flow down the same part of the river, not meandering into tributaries. When people think there's agreement when there isn't, the boats have split off in the river and at some point the ropes will break or the boats will flip.

One love

 

[Voidmatrix]

I know I've been on this forum for a while, but still, hot damn, there were so many options about where I could put this...

Still surprisingly in the experience, three hours after the fact, dosing 150mg harmalas (encapsulated) and following up 30 minutes later with only 25mg of DMT dissolved in lemon water.

There's been a lot extracted from this experience, including the insight that with long-term use geared towards "mindfulness" and relationship, one paradoxically needs less to get more. Something for me to take with me into my inner dealings regarding smoalking.

But since we've mentioned that, I kinda don't care the way I used to. I'm more curious about the block than anything now, not so prepared for it to be out of my way. So my aim is to not care about how far I'm going, but if whatever occurs feels apt. If that means shooting for the moon, okay cool, it's what I've wanted, but if on the other hand it entails teaching myself how to swim again, then I'm just taking my time. There's so much confusion and moving parts around this shit.

My experience, while not very visual, checked a good number of boxes including somatic, philosophic, mystical/esoteric, empathic, cosmic... there was some funny business with my vision, but nothing that made me feel like something was going to manifest in my room... except the entity that popped it's head through my ceiling. At first I thought it was pareidolia, but upon deeper gazing, trying to shift my vantage to get it back, while simultaneously realizing other things, like the 3D nature of this head, makes me lean towards otherwise.

This happened to be just what the cosmic doctor ordered. I can't put everything into words, nor should I. I took w step for me, and it paid off. I was/am very much aligned with self and a lot of other considerations have fallen off, like the leaves will off trees soon.

I bounced around in this experience, making sure to do stuff that's new and that I've wanted to do more while psychedelically altered. So I played my steel tongue drum (I'm not good at it, but I recorded a few to share. I literally just play what I feel and my emotions; enjoy), journaled, did yoga, and laid at my altar (and yes, @northape under a blanket).

Initially I wanted to avoid cannabis, but once I added it to the partaaayyyyy things got real good. There's a reason it goes hand in hand with most other substances for me. There were instances while laying at my altar where I'd hit my cannabis vape, lay in stillness and feel this cool, rejuvenating, loving energy, wash over and through me.

I had to really tap in to RECIEVE this experience. I'm still convincing myself it's okay for ME to receive.

And yes, whole journey in silence, aside from my own drumming, and vocal musings.

Ima sit at the cool kid's table with @blig-blug and do this weekly.

I'll probably add more later.

Love you, mwah mwah

One love