Why the bad trip?

[RayTracer]

Dreamer posted a Shulgin audio recording where Ann and Sasha both spoke about not having a particularly good experience on Ayahuasca. That got me wondering why is it some people have amazingly positive experiences with certain chemicals while others don't.

They also mentioned how they were not very fond of mj. I've never been all that into mj either. I've unfortunately had an affinity for the opiates. Anyway, as far as psychedelics are concerned, I've only had a few bad experiences over my 20 year history with them. That usually involved me not being in a particularly good place mentally/physically. Like living on the streets or something like that.

Do people have bad trips because their ego is trying too hard to cling on to reality? I'm not trying to toot my own horn here, but I've always been really easy going. If my bike gets stolen I'm like "oh well" as an example. I don't live in the future or the past really. I don't think too hard about things either (pretty obvious huh)?

I don't know what I'm getting at here really :? , I'm just wondering what are your thought on why people have bad trips? I've experienced sadness but not really too much terror/paranoia.

 

[Beelzebozo]

I think about this a lot too. For myself, it seems I tend towards difficult experiences more than anyone else I know. But I think, in my case, it has almost everything to do with the "inner dialogue"/thought relationship. Meaning, I've struggled with a negative self-image, self-doubt, social anxiety, and procrastination practically all of my life. So, of course, I bring all that with me to the psychedelic experience.

If I'm lucky enough to live long enough to do so, I hope to continually shave down on these things. It would be interesting to see what a trip looks like a decade or two from now.

Then again, sometimes it might just be luck of the draw. I know this is an incredibly long video to watch just to get my point, but at one point Sam Harris discusses this very topic in depth in his conversation with Joe Rogan (sorry, don't remember at what point exactly Sam makes his comment, but it's really a pretty awesome talk). He basically says that he had a series of trips that were all overwhelmingly positive, that he didn't even understand how a negative trip could happen, then, for no obvious reason, he had one.

Anyway, I don't know, but I suspect it's half the luck of the cosmic draw, and half the relationship the individual has with his or her thoughts.

Peace.

 

[hug46]

ok for you i will try and act out a bad trip for you from the hug46 potential bad trip archive.
Here goes.this is a hypothetical situation. Everyone is sitting in a room all tripping some people know each other but i only know one person. I am becoming extremely self conscious, i have nothing of any interest to add to the conversation so i don"T say anything, then i become more self conscious because i am not contributing to the proceedings and i am noticing people are noticing that i am noticing that i am self conscious, i am becoming more conscious of my self consciousness, i am an outcast i don"T even like myself why would anyone like me. And so it goes in this magnified state you end up having internal dialogues tearing yourself to shreds. When the real truth of the matter is that no one gives a flying monkeys whether you are talking or quiet,its just your own internal storm. In fact i have had women fancy me cos they thought i was deep and mysterious because i was the quiet one, i really blew that one! Hindsight eh? A massive ego or an ego that needs inflating maybe a bit of both.

These are the only problems i have had in the past and may or may not ring true with others but i"ve noticed it in others. Of course it all depends who you are tripping with. You get the bullies who will spike people and then proceed to take them apart mentally piece by piece. These people are insignificant, they prey on who they think the weak are without realising it is they who are the ones who are weak.
Totally get the social anxiety thing but now i am older i am more what the F>>>K ,it doesnt matter, enjoy the ride, but in my youth (nearly) all of my best trips were solo where my mind could fly without worrying about having to interact with other people.I was a worrier on the edge of time.
The thing is, nowadays i don"T shut up, a happy medium would have been nice!

 

[RayTracer]

Thanks for sharing hug and Beezle. It sounds like the ego chattering away has a lot to do with bad trips. I've experienced this from mj and speed. I seemed to have this problem more when I was younger too hug. I remember getting anxiety just going into the convienent store to get something when I was in my late teens to early 20's.

I always felt like I had to put a show on for people. "hi how r u doing today? Oh really...that's great yadayada. I felt pressure to always make people feel comfortable in their skin. I feel like I've always been hypersensitive to others feelings. As I've gotten older I've come to very similar conclusions.

One of my techniques for silencing that inner dialogue is to ruminate/chant sounds in my head. People ask me "what ya thinking about" and I'm like nothing...no really...nada. It's like when your driving a car and all of a sudden you realize you've been on auto pilot for the last 5 minutes. It's not that I'm zoned out, I'm just not ruminating on my plans...critiquing life etc. I'm just existing. It seems to work for me. I really love getting into anything creative. That really quiets the chatter too.

 

[Lichen]

I felt pressure to always make people feel comfortable in their skin. I feel like I've always been hypersensitive to others feelings

Boy, do I know how that feels - I find it difficult to trip with other people simply because I can find myself constantly worrying about whether they are enjoying themselves, and then as I start imagining their discomfort, noticing their prevalent insecurities etc, I in turn start feeling anxious and not enjoying myself.

I always feel like I have to please other people over myself; put other peoples feelings before my own. It can be really hard to relax even just smoking a joint with other people sometimes.

 

[Pandora]

Speaking just for myself and my personal experience(s) here, every single one of my bad trips, and I've had a few, have resulted in personal growth due to fairly long term integration, from a few months to close to 20 years, . . .

But every single time, there was something internally, some fear, some phobia, some guilt, something holding back growth, that needed deeper work and much closer examination. The psychedelic (bad) trip was a beautiful catalyst for just that.

 

[olympus mon]

I think there are lots of reasons one has a so called bad trip. I don't feel there is such a thing because the word bad imply s right or wrong. Many people myself included use the term difficult or uncomfortable rather than bad.

For me my most difficult trips have been the most important to my personal growth. I would even go as far to say they were the most liberating experiences of my life. Some people freak out because they cant let go and are not comfortable with releasing control of their minds, others have painful things going on inside them they are not addressing and the hallucinogen are bringing these feeling to the surface so that the user can work through them or become aware of them.

Its not a one size fits all type of thing. I no longer feel sypathy for a person having a hard ride. In fact i feel happy for them. if they are able to integrate the experience and work through pains the person will be much better for having such an experience.

 

[VoidTraveler]

I'm with Olympus mon and Pandora here, difficult trips can be such an immense source of growth. Dealing with difficult trips is all in the mindset during and after the trip. I've spoken to several people who used to take psychedelics until they had 'a bad trip' and then immediately quit using psychedelics because of that.

 

[hug46]

raytracer and lichen your feelings are all too familiar from when i was younger.One of the reasons i am less like that is that i have out there are so many of us self conscious peopkle out there and its great to feel that you are not alone. It was sort of the time from about 18-27 when i really started to think more, and (self) analyse. All of my mates were crazy consumers of substances to excess while i was more mild and introspective. Whether psychedelics were good for me at the time i do not know.(probably not but live and learn eh?!). But yes in certain situations i have grown mentally after taking something away. Learning from very bad situations is certainly necessary for personal growth. Whether from psyches or some of lifes less psychedelic slaps.
AT my age i am supposed to be having a mid life crisis but i think i am just starting to wake up. Or maybe that is what a midlife crisis is for some people.

 

[HappyHippie]

I'm gonna agree with the idea that difficult trips are far more of a learning experience. As much as I love a good happy trip in the woods without a care in the world, there's not much for me to take away from that experience except the afterglow of warmth and love (and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but it's not as useful as some real insight, something you realise can be changed to better your life).

As for the idea of the ego influencing this, I'd agree too. My most challenging experiences tripping have been at a 'medium' dosage (i.e. not enough to completely lose touch with reality but more than just a few giggles), at this dosage the ego seems to be torn, one foot is in either world and the ego is still there enough to cling on. And it clings on hard...

The only 'bad' trip I've had I learnt next to nothing from was when me and a friend let his kitten out by accident in the middle of the night whilst tripping hard on mushrooms - the stress of locating and catching the poor thing created a very negative trip, but all we learnt was to be more careful with the door haha!

 

[Global]

Should a distinction perhaps be made between this bad/uncomfortable trip as compared with the "brujeria attack" kinds of experiences. Uncomfortable experiences have become remarkably easy for me to let go through, and come out relatively unscathed. There have been however a number of experiences I've had this past year in particular where these malicious, disfigured entities (they're akin to comparing healthy cell formation with cancerous cell formation) will touch me, and surrendering or letting go doesn't seem to be so much the point. These things feel different than being touched by other entities. They're sticky and they feel like they can get stuck in me, and all feeling and emotions instantly become negative with often a menacing sort of musico-telepathic dissonant rhythm (reminds me of the wizard music from Mario). I'm not sure if these experiences should be separated out from one another. I don't find it to be an issue of control so much. I have no problem relinquishing complete control over to other entities (even though I'm ultimately unsure of their intentions as well), but these things...I just don't know.

 

[VIII]

Should a distinction perhaps be made between this bad/uncomfortable trip as compared with the "brujeria attack" kinds of experiences. Uncomfortable experiences have become remarkably easy for me to let go through, and come out relatively unscathed. There have been however a number of experiences I've had this past year in particular where these malicious, disfigured entities (they're akin to comparing healthy cell formation with cancerous cell formation) will touch me, and surrendering or letting go doesn't seem to be so much the point. These things feel different than being touched by other entities. They're sticky and they feel like they can get stuck in me, and all feeling and emotions instantly become negative with often a menacing sort of musico-telepathic dissonant rhythm (reminds me of the wizard music from Mario). I'm not sure if these experiences should be separated out from one another. I don't find it to be an issue of control so much. I have no problem relinquishing complete control over to other entities (even though I'm ultimately unsure of their intentions as well), but these things...I just don't know.

I definitely classify the "brujeria attack" trips in a different category than uncomfortable/difficult. I find it very interesting you brought these up. How was your set before the breakthrough in these "brujeria attack" experiences? For me I get them most often when my mind has been overworked, or I am not well rested, or generally thinking too much too fast. The experiences for me feel both physically and emotionally negative and kind of just irritates me (maybe that says something). I also dont have a problem surrendering and letting what happens, happen.

I always associated them with a problem in my set (setting might affect others, I'm an introvert in that aspect) or the luck of the draw. Now I'm beginning to think it was highlighting an internal issue, perhaps something I was irritated with in my life. Gonna have to think on these experiences more and see what dots connect. I know one was the result of being not well rested (to where just closing your eyes a few minutes is a godsend) after a long, hard, monotonous workday. The trip did reflect the nature of my work (and beyond).

 

[Global]

No, I can't say that set seems to have much to do with it. Each time has actually come forth from a time where I was clear headed and happy. I've of course considered that it could be stemming from internal issues, but when you're face to face with one, you can't really be thinking about what you could have done so that this thing isn't sinisterly getting up in your face.

 

[Pandora]

I no longer feel empathy for a person having a hard ride. In fact i feel happy for them. if they are able to integrate the experience and work through pains the person will be much better for having such an experience.

Integration, presuming it happens at all, tends to happen significantly after the fact. You are a Nexus moderator and you feel no empathy for a person having a hard ride . . . . . People having a difficult psychedelic experience are in extremis of the moment and can benefit from a number of things, empathy being among them.

I'll tell you if I came into chat and was having my metaphysical behind kicked, I wouldn't take it very well if you took a tough love (or worse) approach at that moment. In fact, speaking personally, I'd have trouble seeing beyond the immediate situation, much less be able to work at that time towards integration.

I have done a lot of lay counseling for people in the extremis of dealing with a difficult psychedelic experience or coming off a series of difficult or balls to the wall trips. For better or for worse, empathy is one of my primary tools.

 

[still seeking]

we are all energy and can transmitt this energy on to other people.
people who are sensitive can pick this up very quickly.
or you just know when not to approach someone when you see/feel their vibes.

when a couple of people take lsd/dmt or whatever together they will probably have a similar experience.because of the mindset and energy they are giving off will intermingle whith each other.

if a person has issues underlying then these may to manifest in the persons experience and will most likley transmitt to the next person.

but in the end all that negative energy(bad experience) has something to show you ,and hopefully you will learn by it and enjoy your next.

you can only show empathy when you have had or feel a similar situation to the person you are refering to.

all you can do is say listen i have been where you have been or felt something similar and try to give them advice on how to cope with the situation.

but if you have not been where they have been or experienced how can you show empathy when you know nothing about it.

each of as individuals have different experiences that we can share.
not judge.
just my opinion guys.

 

[universecannon]

hmmmm

I don't know..i tend to make a distinction between uncomfortable/difficult experiences that ultimately are necessary and result in personal growth... and the more 'trainwreck' type experiences that were the result of negligence in properly preparing the set/setting, which don't seem to lead to any, or at least nearly as much growth..and of course there are many that fall anywhere between this spectrum and outside of it.. It can be like the difference between falling in a rut and working you're way out of it, facing you're fears in the process, overcoming fear etc etc.. and just crashing into the rut so hard that you're so discombobulated you have no chance of getting out until the trip is over. the most obvious thing i've learned from those has been the old 'what you put into it is what you get out of it' and just how much the state of mind i'm in beforehand influences the experience

I've had many many difficult experiences that ultimately i'm glad for in retrospect, because after some heavy integration i learned a lot about myself and worked through things that needed to be faced, regardless of how difficult and uncomfortable that would be..parts of myself i didn't want to see, parts of the world, etc

But i've also had some experiences that were just flat out horrible due to my own idiocy and me entering without as coherent a consciousness as possible and ignoring important elements of the set/setting that can help foster a positive and growing experience. So i don't think ALL 'bad trips' are just an inevitable part of the path to personal growth, but some surely are. To think they all are just seems ridiculous to me.. Especially for those not that experienced with psychedelics; i've seen several have horrible experiences that ultimately they admit they didn't seem to learn anything from. If i could go back and better prepare for those types of experiences, i would. some of these have felt more like a step back than a step forward in some ways, although of course i did learn something even from them, on some level at least...but sometimes the cost is worse than the gain imo

anyways, i think overcoming the fear is probably the most important element circling this whole discussion

 

[Eliyahu]

UniverseCannon Wrote:

anyways, i think overcoming the fear is probably the most important element circling this whole discussion

I agree that fear is a major factor, as are expectation and doubt. When it comes to fear though I have noticed there are two main types of fear.
There is a wholesome fear, a fear that comes out of having ultimate respect for the power that is the universe. I believe this type of fear is like a guide and drives people to be adventurous and to seek wisdom.

Then there is an unhealthy fear that is sort of like a fear of the unknown and I believe it is this fear that compells people to adhere excessively to comfort and avoid high adventure.

Of course this is only my own personal observation

 

[SWIMfriend]

IMO the main action of psychedelics is to ELIMINATE some brain function. Of course, I don't necessarily mean that literally; for example, elimination can happen in a practical sense from OVER-stimulation of neurons, as well. Here are two good examples of psychedelic-like experiences from people who had serious brain injury:

How it feels to have a stroke

Heaven is Real: A Doctor's Experience With the Afterlife.

BTW, the second example is causing quite a stir--if only because it's been published by a major US magazine: Newsweek. Here are two more links regarding it:

Sam Harris' refutation (keep in mind that Sam Harris is a seeker of spiritual experience, and a psychedelic user): This Must Be Heaven. An interview with the doctor reporting the heaven experience, with skeptiko.

If it is the case that the main function of psychedelics is just to "mess up" some interesting brain areas, that could explain both the issue of set and setting (what was percolating in your brain before induction may be the main thing you "have left" after disruption begins), as well as the unexpected bad trip (it's helter-skelter as things dissolve, and almost any point in your brain can be the "seed crystal" for the experience to center from, especially if you were cognitively "uncommitted" to any particular issue or realm before-hand).

Note: This in NO WAY means I think the psychedelic experience isn't all everyone would say it is. It just may be that DISRUPTING stuff (like a reset switch, perhaps) allows...let's say, a "more pure" state to start up.

 

[jamie]

Should a distinction perhaps be made between this bad/uncomfortable trip as compared with the "brujeria attack" kinds of experiences. Uncomfortable experiences have become remarkably easy for me to let go through, and come out relatively unscathed. There have been however a number of experiences I've had this past year in particular where these malicious, disfigured entities (they're akin to comparing healthy cell formation with cancerous cell formation) will touch me, and surrendering or letting go doesn't seem to be so much the point. These things feel different than being touched by other entities. They're sticky and they feel like they can get stuck in me, and all feeling and emotions instantly become negative with often a menacing sort of musico-telepathic dissonant rhythm (reminds me of the wizard music from Mario). I'm not sure if these experiences should be separated out from one another. I don't find it to be an issue of control so much. I have no problem relinquishing complete control over to other entities (even though I'm ultimately unsure of their intentions as well), but these things...I just don't know.

I did have an experience maybe 3 weeks back with vaped DMT that was beyond a difficult sort of freak out experience. I really did feel like I was becomming posessed with this horrible darkness that was taking me over and almost attacking me. I bolted up form the floor gasping for breath and the room was completely weird as I was peaking and I fumbled through my hallway somehow grabbing my jacket so I could run outside and freak out in trees in the front cus I thought I was going to break stuff indoors. It was not even fear..it was just this horrible freaking dispair and I knew I had taken DMT but I did not believe I was ever going to get away from this presense that was now taking me over. By the time I managed to get to the front door(after laying down in the hallway trying to sng and getting back up etc more than once) it just let go of me and I was left sitting there tripping like normal, comming down obviously and laughing about it..I think I even finsihed what was left in the pipe and I remember feeling very good at that point.

The very very weird thing about this, that made me seriously rethink what that could have been about is that my sister came over the next morning. She came over to tell me that my grandfather died in his sleep the night before, right around the same time I had smoked that DMT. He was a heavy alcoholic who certainly had his own demons to say the least and it sounds crazy but I cant help wondering if his death somehow permeated my reality at that moment and I tuned into his energy, which was the most helpless and depressed feeling possible.

This never frightened me though afterwords..I mean I smoked again maybe a week later and never had anything like that happen.

 

[jamie]

IMO the main action of psychedelics is to ELIMINATE some brain function. Of course, I don't necessarily mean that literally; for example, elimination can happen in a practical sense from OVER-stimulation of neurons, as well. Here are two good examples of psychedelic-like experiences from people who had serious brain injury:

How it feels to have a stroke

Heaven is Real: A Doctor's Experience With the Afterlife.

BTW, the second example is causing quite a stir--if only because it's been published by a major US magazine: Newsweek. Here are two more links regarding it:

Sam Harris' refutation (keep in mind that Sam Harris is a seeker of spiritual experience, and a psychedelic user): This Must Be Heaven. An interview with the doctor reporting the heaven experience, with skeptiko.

If it is the case that the main function of psychedelics is just to "mess up" some interesting brain areas, that could explain both the issue of set and setting (what was percolating in your brain before induction may be the main thing you "have left" after disruption begins), as well as the unexpected bad trip (it's helter-skelter as things dissolve, and almost any point in your brain can be the "seed crystal" for the experience to center from, especially if you were cognitively "uncommitted" to any particular issue or realm before-hand).

Note: This in NO WAY means I think the psychedelic experience isn't all everyone would say it is. It just may be that DISRUPTING stuff (like a reset switch, perhaps) allows...let's say, a "more pure" state to start up.

There is some evidence that may point to a reduction in brain activity, in certain areas anyway..the problem with this is that the study was based on observance of blood flow to a certain part of the brain and nothing else..which is not really conclusive. Concider that in studies done on ayahuasca and EEG for example they found an increase in both alpha and theta coherance in the brain with no increase in beta activity at all..I dunno what that means but I have a feeling there is more going on that just a decrease in brain activity, though that may very well be a part of it, but not the whole story.

I tend to agree with Johnothan ott that there is not anyone alive who can really claim to fully understand how psychedelics work. We have some theories with more or less support behind them but nothing conclusive.