Here&Now
Titanium Teammate
Oh wow, yeah. Looks like you just had the same consideration.
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5-MeO-DMT - Hype or Hyperbole?
- Thread starter Panpsychic
- Start date
Endogenous β-carbolines deserve a level of acknowledgement, like pinoline and 6-methoxyharman, the latter being a cyclisation product of melatonin. Which, via Rick Strassman (bless 'im!), brings us back to both Buddhist meditation and DMT in a roundabout, if not wholly surprising, fashion.
Here&Now
Titanium Teammate
Really fascinating stuff. I've come across knowledge of pinoline when I was searching to see if there was an endogenous equivalent to the MAOI portion of ayahuasca. A fully endogenous-based ayahuasca seems like it could be interesting. Do you know if pinoline has been synthesized, and whether anyone has actually tried using it?
I haven't heard of 6-methoxyharman. Also sounds intriguing.
6-Methoxyharman is just like harmine (= 7-methoxyharman) but with the methoxy group moved "back" one step around the β-carboline ring system. Pinoline is very similar except the methyl group at the 1-position is absent, and it's a tetrahydro derivative, similar to THH.
It's also rather fascinating how plants also produce both the 6- and the 7-methoxy-β-carboline derivatives, but somehow the 7-methoxies (harmine et al.) have a far greater ethnopharmacological significance overall.
I think @bk2492* recently was posting a bit of information about β-carbolines, plus there are some snippets about the 6-methoxy derivatives, including their synthesis where available, in the second part and one of the appendices of TIHKaL, although it's shocking to think that particular work is now over 28 years old!
I'm pretty sure that pinoline can be formed rather easily by the Pictet-Spengler condensation of mexamine with formaldehyde, while broadly similar reactions form the other analogues.
*
forum.dmt-nexus.me
forum.dmt-nexus.me
It's also rather fascinating how plants also produce both the 6- and the 7-methoxy-β-carboline derivatives, but somehow the 7-methoxies (harmine et al.) have a far greater ethnopharmacological significance overall.
I think @bk2492* recently was posting a bit of information about β-carbolines, plus there are some snippets about the 6-methoxy derivatives, including their synthesis where available, in the second part and one of the appendices of TIHKaL, although it's shocking to think that particular work is now over 28 years old!
I'm pretty sure that pinoline can be formed rather easily by the Pictet-Spengler condensation of mexamine with formaldehyde, while broadly similar reactions form the other analogues.
*
Science paper - 6-MeO-harmalan
The isolation of 6-methoxyharmalan and 6-methoxyharman from Virola cuspidata. Cassady, J. M., Blair, G. E., Raffauf, R. F., & Tyler, V. E. 1971. Lloydia, 34(1), 161–162. "For his study, Markus mixed a representative of the β-Carbolins (harmin, harmalin, or 6-MeO-harmalan) with a tryptamine...
forum.dmt-nexus.me
Harmalas and other less-known β-Carbolines Workthread
This first post will be expanded as more information is pooled in. Harmine AKA Telepathine; 7-methoxy-1-methyl-9H-pyrido[3,4-b]indole Harmine chemical and physical properties Pharmacology of harmine (Trout's notes on ayahuasca) Reported natural sources (Trout's notes on ayahuasca)...
forum.dmt-nexus.me
Here&Now
Titanium Teammate
Wow, thanks so much, those sources are great. Reading through them made me aware that there's likely a whole lot more psychedelic biochemistry going on than I realized. I guess it's to be expected that there'd be complexity in a system like that.
Now, if only I wasn't an absolute layman, I'd be compelled to try creating some of these molecules, lol.
Now, if only I wasn't an absolute layman, I'd be compelled to try creating some of these molecules, lol.
@Transform very interesting stuff, thanks for all that info!
As for the question of whether 5-MeO-DMT could be behind the jhana experience, it sounds reasonable that it would. But even if that were proved, we still would be missing pieces of the mechanism, as we still wouldn't know what is causing the release of 5-MeO-DMT in those states when the cause is not the exogenous introduction of the substance.
It could further be asked "what caused the person to start meditating at that moment", but then it gets rather philosophical. So I think it makes sense to conceptualize a neurochemical mechanism where (if proven) 5-MeO-DMT would be the last step, but may not be the first. In this speculative manner, imagine there were a series of neurochemical factors that ultimately lead to that 5-MeO-DMT release. Then a training could be possible where one starts at first with 5-MeO-DMT itself and later other previous factors in the chain are used instead (plus some kind of mental techniques), going further back in the chain until the subject can induce the whole process reliably through the mental techniques exclusively.
As for the question of whether 5-MeO-DMT could be behind the jhana experience, it sounds reasonable that it would. But even if that were proved, we still would be missing pieces of the mechanism, as we still wouldn't know what is causing the release of 5-MeO-DMT in those states when the cause is not the exogenous introduction of the substance.
It could further be asked "what caused the person to start meditating at that moment", but then it gets rather philosophical. So I think it makes sense to conceptualize a neurochemical mechanism where (if proven) 5-MeO-DMT would be the last step, but may not be the first. In this speculative manner, imagine there were a series of neurochemical factors that ultimately lead to that 5-MeO-DMT release. Then a training could be possible where one starts at first with 5-MeO-DMT itself and later other previous factors in the chain are used instead (plus some kind of mental techniques), going further back in the chain until the subject can induce the whole process reliably through the mental techniques exclusively.
Panpsychic
Titanium Teammate
This would make sense. 5-MeO-DMT has not been available to most throughout history nor would the majority be ready for it. The gradual approach has to be the one that is more pervasive and approachable but you realize its limitations when you have the direct access means.
Doubt is simply another obstruction that can be let go of by trusting your Gnosis.
Would you not say though that some of your Harmala+DMT experiences pertaining to the after death state, were more at the causal level in this framework?
Thanks for sharing this.
I previously mentioned Chris Bache and a video of him talking about 5-MeO. He presents a similar framework although based on his experiences with meditation combined with high dose LSD sessions over a 20 year period which I will put here just as its the one I use as a map. What I Iike about it is it has emerged from his experiences although no doubt he draws on psychological and spiritual perspectives to inform it.
His description of the layers here is timestamped along with the below brief breakdown of it assisted with AI.
Personal mind
The personal biographic layer, personality structure, and the domain of traditional psychotherapy.
Spiritual process: The personal self must be purified and for the next levels to unfold in an integrated way and to awaken their full potential.
Movement: Letting go of personal identity.
2. Collective Consciousness - Humanity’s Psyche
The psychological field of all of humanity—past, present, and future. This includes shared trauma (e.g., war, ecological collapse) and shared potential (positive societal changes, awakening to higher consciousness and ethics).
Spiritual process: To open the heart and soul to interconnectedness, and to be reborn into service.
Movement: Dissolving separation between self and humanity.
3. Archetypal Realm — Divine Cosmic Patterns
The mythic, symbolic, and spiritual architecture that governs human experience—deities, sacred geometry, divine principles, karmic structures and the souls cosmic curriculum. Not merely metaphorical but actual realities.
Spiritual process: To see how soul and cosmos are structured, to align with divine purpose
Movement: Living aligned with archetypal patterns and meaning
4. Causal Oneness — Universal Divine Intelligence
The vast, impersonal, all-knowing consciousness that dreams the universe into being. This is God as creative intelligence, the ordering principle of all existence.
Spiritual process: To realize your soul is part of an infinite intelligence. You are not separate—you are a wave in God’s knowing.
Movement: Merging with the Mind of God.
5. Diamond Luminosity — The Clear Light Field of Ultimate Reality
The pure, nondual, infinite field of awareness. This is not a being—not even “God” in a conventional sense—but the Absolute, the radiant field that simply is.
Total dissolution into radiant clarity, infinite stillness, and perfect presence. No self, no time, no division. Only being.
Spiritual process: The end of the self, the end of seeking. To know God not as an idea but as reality itself.
Movement: ?
Interestingly although he outlines this framework he also states that there is:
∞ - The Beyond the Beyond — Endless Unfolding Infinities
"There is no final level. Beyond every summit, there is another summit. The Diamond Light is not the end. The journey never ends.”
—Chris Bache, LSD and the Mind of the Universe
What he terms the highest stage of the 'Diamond Luminosity' which he had been working toward for years and seems broadly to be the same domain as the nondual whiteout, even this he says he had one of his last experiences on acid where he had managed to go far into the Diamond Luminosity, and suddenly a beam of light shot out and struck him that shattered his consciousness from a whole other dimension of again a greater order of being. That was when he realized the process was essentially infinite, eternal and unlimited and never ever ended.
In other words 'God' or Absolute Consciousness is progressing through its own journey which never ends of ever greater and more sublime states of ever unfolding Infinities, and this process goes on for Eternity because there is no longer any limiting factor.
In terms of the distinction into the different stages regardless of how many we delineate, what is striking is that he entered all the different stages with his practice and LSD over a gradual period.
Certainly than, while the substance is the platform it is possible to traverse the different stages both without substances (very difficult and requires huge amounts of practice), or combining meditation with the substances (requires practice but much less than without the substance).
If as you say 5-MeO grants direct access to the causal level or perhaps the Diamond Luminosity or Clear Light level, this would be again potentially a top down pathway, my concerns would be however if 5-MeO could lead to a spritual bypassing effect if it solely geared toward the clear light level. Unless perhaps lower doses can be done to work at the lower levels, however these other levels are maybe best worked through with different substances such as shrooms or acid.
Harmala+DMT in this framework I think occupies a good middle ground. I have had experiences with it on all levels excluding the clear light level, but predominantly what he calls the archetypal and causal oneness levels and there is long enough to work with it (if drinking harmalas then smoking you have a good 40 mins to work with and can repeat).
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You're welcome, although I'm but a librarian in these matters.
You talk of processes upstream prior to (putative) endogenous 5-MeO-DMT release, but I'll emphasise again, there's also a whole chain of downstream biochemical changes which will be resulting from the substance's receptor action and its particular profile in this. If there are ways that meditative states bring any parts of these downstream neurochemical changes into play, these could also be responsible for, for example, the reported "5% of the intensity of 5-MeO-DMT" mentioned somewhere above. In fact, I'd say this more likely than 5-MeO-DMT being released endogenously in any significant amount.
Wouldn’t it be likely that other receptors/neurotransmitters and hormones would be involved as well? Like glutamate etc? What about kappa receptors?
Also how do you factor in just how different people are? What’s going on in the brain of a person with hyperphantasia vs aphantasia? How will that effect the outcome in an individual after say, a 10 day vipassana retreat or darkrooming?
If you plant 40 phalaris seeds you might have 1 that produces cleanish 5-MeO-DMT..maybe there’s a DMT clone…maybe bufotenine and some beta carboline dominant strains and maybe just some super low alkaloid producers in general. I have always just assumed most organisms are like this to some extent. Are different people subjected to different limits/advantages in terms of what types of mystical experiences they are prone to having?
Why do some people start having wild closed eye visions from half a gram of cubes, while some others can eat 3 grams and experience profound mental effects but visually only lower level warping etc?
Does it have to do with receptor polymorphisms?
Also how do you factor in just how different people are? What’s going on in the brain of a person with hyperphantasia vs aphantasia? How will that effect the outcome in an individual after say, a 10 day vipassana retreat or darkrooming?
If you plant 40 phalaris seeds you might have 1 that produces cleanish 5-MeO-DMT..maybe there’s a DMT clone…maybe bufotenine and some beta carboline dominant strains and maybe just some super low alkaloid producers in general. I have always just assumed most organisms are like this to some extent. Are different people subjected to different limits/advantages in terms of what types of mystical experiences they are prone to having?
Why do some people start having wild closed eye visions from half a gram of cubes, while some others can eat 3 grams and experience profound mental effects but visually only lower level warping etc?
Does it have to do with receptor polymorphisms?
All great points and very much the background to my allusions. All those other receptors have their own endogenous ligands with their own mechanisms behind their release. Their interactions can, in principle, be mapped out. And it's not just variation between individuals, but our own receptor subtype distribution will be varying through time as well. There maybe seasonal, diurnal, dietary and other environmental influences in all of this.
I don't feel qualified to comment on individual variations in sensitivity and things like aphantasia. Prof. Dave Nichols has made an extensive explanation of the state of knowledge on downstream chances in neurological and neurochemical activity after serotonergic receptor activation. There's a link to it somewhere here on the nexus, and can probably still be found on popular video streaming sites. Might take me a while to dig that one up, though.
Here&Now
Titanium Teammate
During those experiences, perhaps I was dipping into characteristics of the causal far more than if I weren't enhanced by tripping, but at least from what I've seen, a full immersion into the causal just has a different flavor. It forces a perspective which strongly emphasizes that literally everything in existence is you, and it does it in a way where that one revelation is the singular focus. All the narratives and lessons that come with a typical psychedelic trip collapse into a non-dual realization of oneness.
Now, it is the case that I've approached that state on Harmala+DMT, but it was only once or twice that I can remember. It's similar to what I wrote above, where everything started becoming quiet, a whiteness filled my view, an unspeakable joy/bliss of the revelation filled my being, and there were the beginnings of an ultra-intuitive grasp of causal oneness. But after having used 5-MeO-DMT a while later than those experiences, it targets that state specifically and cranks it up to 11.
Yeah, this is great, thanks for sharing. I do remember now that you shared something similar about a year ago. I guess our conversation must have looped a little, lol. If you're working with a map like this, you're probably thinking about states in a very similar way to myself. Chris Bache's map seems to be a more granular version of Vedanta's where Personal Mind corresponds to Gross, Collective Consciousness and Archetypal Realm correspond to Subtle, and Causal Oneness and Diamond Luminosity correspond to Causal. I think the extra detail can be helpful in navigating the terrain, because there really are gradations to these states, and it's all part of a spectrum where one flows into the next.
I especially find The Beyond the Beyond to be super interesting. In a situation where reality itself is infinite, I suppose it makes perfect sense that there wouldn't be an "ending" to the capacity for realization. I shudder to even imagine the profundity that the next level(s) would entail.
It's a very interesting point, and I do share in your concerns that a certain type of development (namely subtle) could be missed by only partaking in 5-MeO-DMT. In my own Harmala+DMT experiences, I would always feel such a strong sense of relief as various internal challenges were worked through during a trip. It was as if knots were being untied that I didn't even know were there. It really does feel like a totally separate type of development that occurs when you compare the fruits of the two substances.
With 5-MeO-DMT, you can work with lower doses, but it's just nowhere near the same thing as Harmala+DMT. Fascinatingly, it still targets that same causal level, even though you're far from breaking through. You'd probably have to experience it to know what I mean by that; it's hard to explain the difference. In my opinion, you couldn't use low doses of 5-MeO-DMT as a substitute for Harmala+DMT. You'd probably be missing out if you tried.
I'd recommend holding onto a variety of psychedelics if your goal is the kind of spiritual development we've been discussing. Even though 5-MeO-DMT is my main, I have a pretty vast repertoire myself. From the great classics, to novel RCs that have proven interesting. I think your line of thought is correct that it'd be counterproductive to purposely limit the size of your toolbox. And this convo has inspired me to consider more carefully that I watch out for a lopsided development.