Amazing McKenna.

[MindRider]

I am reading Tripatmine palace, and I saw last night McKenna talking about the missing link in evolution being psylocibin. One of the most interesting speech I ever listened to.

He was at a conference in Maui. I'll post the link from home.

 

[universecannon]

i enjoyed reading tryptamine palace a lot..Oroc really had me itching to try some 5meo!

As for mckenna..you'll quickly find that many folks here are very familiar with his work (afterall, this is the dmt-nexus)

The 'stoned-ape' theory you're referring to is thoroughly described in Terence's book "food of the gods". That theory is actually the main theme of the book

dennis seems to think psilocybin played a part, but that it wasn't so simple as we started eating mushrooms and got smart. A lot more on this info here

 

[MindRider]

McKenna's book is next. I find the theory of the stoned ape amazingly fresh and interesting. Thanks, I'll check that link from home. Amazing times.

So much changed after I met "it"

 

[fairbanks]

Food of the Gods was my first real eye opening book. Not just the 'stoned ape theory' but as well as the history on world trade, patriarchy, primitive society, etc. It was an amazing read. Terrence was an amazing writer and speaker, he really knew his way with words.

That said, you shouldn't take his theories too seriously. It's easy for the lay reader to mistake fact and fiction. Looking through citations and actual evolutionary biology paints a different picture. But the psychedelic community still holds firm to 'stoned apes' as fact, just like the christian right holds onto the 10,000 yr old earth.

M2: Why did you write FOOD OF THE GODS?
TM: I felt if I could ... get drugs insinuated into human origins, then I would cast doubt on the whole paradigm of Western Civilization ... If you could convince people that drugs were responsible for the emergence of large brain size and language, then you could completely re-cast the argument ... So it was consciously propaganda, although ... I believe its going to be hard to knock down. http://deoxy.org/t_mondo2.htm

While the intentions of anti-western civilization seem good, it's hardly different from the amount of religious propaganda misinterpretations of evolution. Looking into 'stoned apes' further you find that TM misrepresented a study on perception UI of psilocybin. He then made a series of inferences w/o proof to give a broad stroke brush theory of evolutionary biology.

Check out this article which lays out the points and citations.
The Stoned Ape Theory - Reality Sandwich

Like I said Terrence had a real way with words like a grand story teller. But most of these stories are not laced with facts. Even his brother Dennis is quoted saying that Terrence didn't like him at his lectures b/c he was one of the few that would argue against his theories. I mean he really had a way at mesmerizing crowds and putting together the movement. He's quite comparable to the Jesus of the psychedelic community now. I love him for the alternatives that he presented and a lot were based in fact around agriculture, trade, patriarchy, etc. But when it came to 'stoned apes' and 'time wave zero' the facts faded into complete fiction.

 

[MindRider]

Great post thank you.

Terence has a way with words and building narrative, without (most of the times) loosing sight of the subject. I found very interesting that someone came up with an interesting and new theory, that would of course put the plants in the picture, in a holistic system where there was actually connection between us and the shroom in this case.

I thought that the initial claim about an advantage in hunting because of a sharper eyesight was weak at best, but I respect the courage of pioneering a completely different idea. That, as you point out, does not mean that it is true.

On the other hand there has to be a connection between the presence of psychoactive plants, shamanism and evolution, they seem too similar to be separated entities. But we know so little. And what we know is confusing.

All I know is that now I am even more curious than before. Thankful to have a chance to exchange with you guys.

I'm here to stay.

 

[fairbanks]

NP MA. I was a fervent supporter of the theory for a long time until I actually looked into it's basis.

I wish that TM would have tackled exactly what you're saying about plant-human evolution relations before the specification of mushroom tripping-hunting-sex. Fortunately Dennis McKenna is doing that right now! All plants carry many neurotransmitters some even carry more than humans do, so it makes sense that a primitive diet effected neurogenesis. TM making psychedelic specific assumptions that tripping on mushrooms allowed for better hunting and more sex is just bastardizing the process that primitive diet in general had on evolution.

 

[jamie]

"I thought that the initial claim about an advantage in hunting because of a sharper eyesight was weak at best"

This has always been a strong point within the theory IMO..you only have to look at the amazon and concider the ammount of tribes there who use entheogens at certain doses to enhance hunting skills. This is not just an idea, but a phenomenon that we can observe actaully taking place today in some parts today. Virola and yopo are snuffed throughout the day by some hunters..sapo is essentially a hunting medicine..some tribes wake up very early in the morning and drink ayahuasca hbefore going hunting in order to see where the game is in their visions etc.

 

[Michal_R]

My "relation" with T.McKenna has a particular history. At first, I was thinking something like "Aha, one of these post-hippie know-it-all people". I wanted to give a try to one of his books, but I think I didn´t even finish the introductory chapter.

Later, everything changed - I smoked DMT. After the "event" (i.e. my first breakthrough), McKenna´s writings and talks suddenly became not only meaningful and quite clear, but also quite important for me personally - they helped me a great deal with integrating my "first time"...

Today, I am aware that his "theories" are not theories in the strict sense, and that they should be viewed as such. I also don´t agree with everything he wrote. However, I still consider him one of the most important visionaries in the West.

 

[MindRider]

The speech opened my mind on many factors. One of them is that we do need a link at the mental - evolutionary level, which as TM said IS the main difference ( he did not finish to explain how that generated an EGO) between us and animals.

I can very well see how substances might have been and are used for hunting or other purposes, and I find his version ( the happy stoner orgy tribe) very poetic and...human actually. Of course we need to look more into that and try to find what really happened. but most of all what WILL happen. SInce it is obvious that shamanistic knowledge is surfacing more now than in the last thousand of years and influencing more and more people. I saw that happening ( as TM said) with salvia and Youtube. and now with the global nervous system that IS the internet. without which I would have never known about DMT.

 

[fairbanks]

"I thought that the initial claim about an advantage in hunting because of a sharper eyesight was weak at best"

This has always been a strong point within the theory IMO..you only have to look at the amazon and concider the ammount of tribes there who use entheogens at certain doses to enhance hunting skills. This is not just an idea, but a phenomenon that we can observe actaully taking place today in some parts today. Virola and yopo are snuffed throughout the day by some hunters..sapo is essentially a hunting medicine..some tribes wake up very early in the morning and drink ayahuasca hbefore going hunting in order to see where the game is in their visions etc.

It's true that many tribes use different medicines to enhance acuity for hunting. That doesn't substantiate TM's stoned ape theory though which deals specifically with evolution in relation to psilocybin enhanced hunting. An btw, TM misrepresented R. Fischer & R. M. Hill's study on psilocybin and visual perception replacing the important word 'perception' with 'acuity.' http://www.springerlink.com/content/t881q1167n141276/

Then reasoning by error that, "(a) psilocybin mushrooms were growing where our ancestral hominids roamed, (b) they ate the mushrooms (c), went hunting under their effect (d), brought home more game due to their enhanced visual acuity (e), won more mates and bred more successfully, so (f) the tripping hominids prevailed in the struggle for existence, out-competing the non-trippers, thus evolving into us."

It's a far fetched broad stroke brush of evolution with psychedelic user bias. We know that these visionary medicines can help for hunting but in terms of human evolution that is a weak assertion.

 

[MindRider]

I don't think we will ever know what really happened and when. I can accept that truth maybe for a tribe of (future) shamans, or someone within the tribe.
On the other hand we are used to proceed by facts. and the psychedelic world is the opposite of facts. it is a place where the answer to anything seems to be "yes" there is also that possibility.

What I like of that theory is that puts human knowledge of itself as a product of a natural process ( eating shrooms) that elevated the animal from the animal kingdom, and put it in contact with the "divine" kingdom if you like. A sot of growing out of the animal phase with the aid of plants. I find that beautiful.

What I believe is that the connection, information and knowledge is here, but in a society based again of "facts" we struggle to create a map in and for something that is not linear.

 

[fairbanks]

I would do so some research into evolutionary biology before dismissing all knowledge as inept. While we don't know everything about evolution, we do know that TM stated his theory was "consciously propaganda", and we do know TM was a die-hard occult literature fan (he bought entire libraries). So it's hard not to clump him in with the rest of the propaganda from religious/occult "theories" of evolution, which provide no actual evidence aside of opinion.

 

[MindRider]

Absolutely..As I said I find that theory very...poetic. I would be fantastic to finally put together scientific and psychedelic theories. But of course we are victim of what we know so far.

 

[fairbanks]

Most def brutha. There is a lot of actual scientific research (Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies) on this stuff but with psychedelic pop culture it becomes muddled by the abuse of research and concepts to create successful books.

Here's a great article by Peter Bebergal about the contrast in the psychedelic research community. http://therevealer.org/archives/5262

 

[jamie]

"Then reasoning by error that, "(a) psilocybin mushrooms were growing where our ancestral hominids roamed"

What about the "bee shaman" rock art of the neolithic era found on the African Tassili plateau? If those are not mushrooms than what else could they be?

I think that claiming it as "reasoning by error" is a statement with little anthropological basis really. It is similar to how people disreguard psilocybe mushroom use in ancient europe outright, even though we have some compelling evidence of psilocybe hispanica use in old world spain.

None of this can prove anything either way, but claiming that this sort of reasoning is an error makes little sense.

 

[fairbanks]

The neolithic era was at the end of the stone age, we had already been making tools for centuries before then; how is that proof? It makes sense that shamanism came up around then but that doesn't prove anything about TM's theory that mushrooms in relation to hunting and sex is the "missing link" of evolution. In fact, it's contradictory b/c that was also when the domestication of plants and animals started in opposition to hunter-gatherer culture. It was simply a sign of the times. Scientists actually have found a 10% decrease in brain size since the start of agriculture in the neolithic era. So that rock art does not prove anything about mushrooms catalyzing an evolutionary leap of brain growth, but rather the start of the decline!

Don't come at me about anthropology with an example taken from Food of the Gods itself...I was amazed as well by that bee shaman picture and theory about the Tassili migration that TM proposed; which as well as 'stoned apes' has never been proven.

That reasoning by error quote was from Brian Akers, a biologist with concentration in mycology; not myself. & It does make sense if you know what reason error is. TM made 6 different anthropological assumptions with no actual research or evidence backing it. Therefore, reasoning by error. No different than any other occult/religious ideal. The problem with 'stoned ape' theory is that he presented it in scientific jargon with no real scientific process or evidence. Thus the lay reader takes it as fact w/o checking citations.

I really enjoyed 'stoned apes', but I don't take it seriously, rather as a fun story. He himself said it was "consciously propaganda" so I just take it as pop psychedelic philosophy. I mean, come on, his final conclusion that psychedelic users out-competed non users is just ridiculous, bias, and an appeal to his psychedelic audience.

I love TM and owe a lot of where I'm at today b/c of him, but if we're talking real research based scientific theory I'd rather listen to his brother Dennis.

 

[universecannon]

well, if thats the case then you might find this interestin ;]

The interesting thing is that either way...brain size catalysts or not...psychedelics catalyze the human imagination and have been a part of human experience for likely tens of thousands of years- and have played a massive part of shaping the unfolding of humanity during that time, imo

 

[fairbanks]

Yep! One of my favorite psychedelic salon podcasts, Dennis goes into the main ideas behind Tony Wright's plant-human symbiosis from Left in the Dark. Here's a short interview about it as well as a free pdf version of Left in the Dark

As I said before, I almost wish TM had written about plant-human symbiosis instead of mushroom tripping evolution. It would be awesome if the plant-human symbiosis work was more popular which is proven in physical evolution, compared to the popularity of stoned ape theory which is not. Psychedelics role in evolution with their high alkaloid content seems to lie more or less on the cultural/creative end, while general primitive diet of wild foods that contain higher nutrient, neurotransmitter, anabolic, protein content control the physical end of evolution.

"Let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food." - Hippocrates

Most food that humans have eaten since the neolithic era and agriculture are domesticated crops. Science has tracked through fossil record a decrease in brain and body size as well as the narrowing of the skull since starting this diet. Why? B/c domesticated food lacks these nutrients, neurotransmitters, anabolic, proteins that the wild food parents have; i.e. wild broccoli vs domesticated broccoli. Wild broccoli is such a strong medicine that if you cut it's stem and smoke the sap you can get close to the same effect as opium.

There's a great book by Dr. Weston Price about physical degeneration and nutrition with photos of primitive peoples body, head, & dental structures compared to today's fragile fairies :lol: . So in reality, we've been devolving this whole time, not evolving. & On top of agriculture, now we have the bio-engineering of crops, so we're seeing more and more of these degenerative diseases i.e. diabetes (even juvenile diabetes) than we did before. That's what I believe psychedelics have been teaching me, is to get back to the wild and the medicine that the creator has provided readily for us.

I have my own personal theory that I'm trying to research about the rise of shamanism compared to agriculture. It makes sense if we started devolving and more and more degenerative diseases came up that shamanism would be needed more and more. Working with strong plant medicines helped people connect back to nature. Many psychedelics have a purgative effect of toxins in the body. All just speculation but I hope to get together some verifiable evidence in the future.

 

[jamie]

"The neolithic era was at the end of the stone age, we had already been making tools for centuries before then; how is that proof?"

I made it very clear in that post that this was not proof of anything. Just because the stone age came first does not mean suddenly that psilocybe mushrooms were not found in the area durring the stone age. You can find psilocybe mushrooms even in the arizona desert. It is highly unlikely that you could not find them in stone age africa.

I dont even believe in the stoned ape theory the way mckenna puts it forth, but the idea that we had acess to psilocybin is not that far fetched.

 

[jamie]

I think there is a number of problems with Tony Wrights ideas also, and I am def very familiar with them having read the book and lived on a raw vegan diet for a number of years and been fruitarian. I dont really want to get into that whole thing though. I believed it much more strongly at one point than I do now after doing more research and personal experimentation. I think he is right in many ways though as well in terms of his ideas surrounding the current left brain dominance and right brain suppression.

The work of Weston Price is some of the most alarming I have encountered and it would parallel what TonY Wright puts forth in terms of our own degredation..only it happened much sooner through the interpretation of Price's work. Arthur Haines is a taxonimist who has come to similar conclusions. He is not well known but has some facinating ideas on the subject.

At this point I follow a diet more in line with primal eating(though not low carb paleo) than raw fruitarian and my own experience with it has made me rethink everything I once thought about diet and evolution.

I definatly think that fire played a role in our evoltion and that we have been cooking and eating meat for a long time and thatit's role in our own development should not be ignored.