Amazing McKenna.

[MindRider]

probably more efficient and adaptable. So we have evolved.

That's a hasty generalization aka logical fallacy. Where is your evidence for this? I've provided multiple sources of evidence for rather the opposite, that we've been in fact devolving.

I noted that smaller does not necessarily mean less intelligent

didn't we already go over this? AGAIN, lemme refer you to this study by Virginia Commonwealth University.

What I think we should do, is to develop a social and political system with less or none of the huge differences and classes that rogue capitalism created, where we all would have access to medicine, technology and information, in a balanced way compared to our planet's resources.

I wish it were that easy. Your snap of the fingers solution is up against the inverted totalitarian corporate states of america.

What I hope is that eventually we will get there. after all we are all here for a reason, that I believe is to be interacting with matter and this planet, making mistakes and correcting them.

Couldn't agree more homie. I think we'll pass through this, not with hope, but with direct action.

Evidence for evolution...We can build more complex machines and live longer and better than our ancestors with larger but less smart brain. If you believe that we learn by experience, you must also convey that we improve that experience over time obtaining better results with less effort each time..isn't that intelligence?


From the moment we discovered fire we improved the method to produce and keep it. I don't see any other specie on the planet do the same. I never said it was easy or painless but we both still have a choice to go somewhere else and live differently...no one is chaining us here in US. Yes, either direct action or indirect, that's why we are here, I guess...otherwise why have a body? Hands? eyes? Those are all tools to interact with....this...


Hard forum..I post on many other ( different subject) but the topic here is so wide and complex makes it hard to debate. Last thing I am looking for is to be "right" or aggressive. I'm just curious and in awe of what I discovered and saw after experiencing Dimitri.

Peace!

 

[fairbanks]

I'm still curious which particular technologies you feel are causing the most problems and whether it be their usage or production.

We're using one of them right now . Have you heard of coltan mining in the Congo? We've created a child slave, civil war zone, hell hole over there the past few decades just so that we can have our video game systems, computers, TVs, diamond rings, & more!

All modern electrical technology from the lights in your house to the computer your reading this on is powered by coal which right now is being mountain top removed from Appalachia.

Cars/oil are also one of the biggest problems, we've killed millions upon millions of innocent civilians and decimated entire ecosystems just to make sure you get to work on time. & Now that those reserves are running out, the new fad is domestic natural gas. These natural gas extractions are contaminating the water of entire cities from the Dakotas to Texas. It can be mined mostly anywhere though so don't be surprised when one day you're able to do this, thousands of people already can:

Our regular everyday items from clothing, paper, plastics, toothpaste, shampoo, mirrors, you name it are made from unsustainable mining processes, and most aren't even bio-degradable when you throw them away. Have you heard of the pacific plastic patch? Go boating out into the pacific ocean. I doubt you'll want to eat ANYTHING that you catch:

The problem with a lot of sustainable technology like wind farms and solar panels is that a) it would never match the productivity level of unsustainable sources therefore never be implemented on a large scale. and b) the materials needed to create these technologies would make it unsustainable if it were implemented on mass scale.

Not to mention the fact that if you live next to a wind farm good luck going to bed at night cuz the low frequency sound waves will keep you up all night! There's a reason why local municipalities when provided with counter evidence never vote in wind farms or many other sustainable tech. They're too dependent on the instant productive gratification of the earth's blood and bones.

 

[jamie]

"Smaller brain size doesn't mean less intelligent"

Well, actaully yes it does. The ratio of brain size to body mass is directly correlated to intelligence in mammals. You cant really dispute this. It is well know. Spend some time studying mammalian intelligence esp in relation to cetaceans and you will find this is the case.

Ok then Elephants must be smarter than us... Not to mention whales...right?

Hey did you read my post?

I said the brain size to body size RATIO. Do you not understand what that means? This does not mean that becasue an elephant is bigger than us that it is more intelligent. An elephants brain to body ratio is smaller than ours. A bottlenose dolphins brain to body size ratio is bigger than ours.

Sorry but you are wrong.

And yes there is tons of evidence out there to suggest bottlenose dolphins and some whales have a larger capacity for intelligence than humans. They dont have fingers so dont expect them to be building cell phones and computers. Intelligence is not that linear a thing that intelligence is dictated by ability to make technology the way we do.

I have spent time working at an aquarium with dolphins and whales..if you dont think they are extremely intelligent beings try spending some time with them. Why is there bottlenose dolphins that have learned english and can communicate with people through a keyboard, while no human has yet to learn dolphin? I also have family who has worked for many many years with dolphins and is well known and respected in the field. You passing off the idea of cetaceans being at least as intelligent as humans just makes you look ignorant and uneducated on the subject.

 

[jamie]

"think we are the peak of evolution so far yes. We are the dominant species."

Yes but you have provided no proof of this whatsoever, and have disreguarded the works of real scientists like Weston Price who's work strongly does suggest epigenetic degredation. Being the dominant species does not mean anything. I am really surprised that you are going to use this claim to support your points here.

I could say that the US military is the dominant group amongst humans, and the entire planet..but it would be stupid to stretch that point as support for them also being the most intelligent group on the planet.

It is a fallacy.

Does evolution even have peaks in that way? Evolution is not a linear process.

 

[fairbanks]

Dear Mental Animal,

You're a bit confusing. I don't think you understand what I mean by evidence. I respect your opinion, but I'm not going to continue to counter it and provide studies, I'm tired, we can go in circles forever. Please research this subject and try to find counter evidence outside of your opinion.

We can build more complex machines and live longer and better than our ancestors with larger but less smart brain.

The groups of people with the longest longevity (Hunza and Okinawa as examples of many) are people who maintain a relatively primitive diet and life style. So, no, techno-industrial society does not produce longer life expectancy but rather the opposite. For fucks sake, we have an entire population of kids dying from juvenile degenerative disease, how could you say we are improving life expectancy?

If you believe that we learn by experience, you must also convey that we improve that experience over time obtaining better results with less effort each time..isn't that intelligence?

Life and intelligence is not about figuring out ways to apply the least amount of effort. That's a lazy mentality. It is not intelligent to further domesticate ourselves with these technological crutches. We are just making ourselves more dependent. Learning by experience when applied to a primitive lifestyle is a good thing. But when you apply that to industrial exponential growth, you quickly become the exact definition of addiction and insanity, furthering entire population dependency on the techno-industrial planetary suicide march.

 

[mescaline-man]

*

 

[fairbanks]

Thanks mescaline-man. Ruppert is a good guy.

Here are some other documentaries for those who don't want to trek through the mountains of research & studies.

Surviving Progress: Surviving Progress

Technocalyps: Technocalyps

All Watched Over By Machines of Loving Grace: All Watched Over By Machines of Loving Grace

The Last Mountain: The Last Mountain

Gasland: Gasland

 

[mescaline-man]

*

 

[Doodazzle]

In that same thread about john allegro and the jesus/mushroom theory you posted this same lineage of symbols...So although you didn't mention it here, I brought it up.

Hermes was not the god of writing or language, that would be Momus and the Muses. Hermes was the god of transitions and boundaries...He was a protector and patron of literature and poety but as well as thieves, herdsmen, invention and trade, athletic and sports.

Mercury in roman mythology was the god of trade...there's two origins from the Etruscan diety Turms as well as Hermes. Both origins were taken for their specification in trade not for writing or language.

I understand now you don't mean this as evidence but as just interesting. That seems to be the problem with most conspiracy theory, hasty generalization.

The problem with this whole language theory of mushrooms is that you posit it appeared from nothing and into it's final form. Not to mention it's dismissal of all other hominids on the planet. Let me remind you that the bee-headed mushroom shaman was found during the neolithic period, which by that time humans were starting agriculture, language just sprung up out of nothing by then? Come on. It has much much older origin, as a long continuity from the animal communication of gestural or vocal sounds, to a socialization tool, some scholars mark this as far back as Homo habilis 2 million years ago. A lot of new evidence has been coming up as well to back up Darwin and Rousseau theory that language emerged from music.

The whole idea that language came from a mushroom is romanticism aimed at psychedelic users. Remember TM said himself it was "consciously propaganda."

I think you rush to understand mythology a little bit too quickly. Mythology is murky waters. Hermes, like any mythological character, has multiple correspondences, multiple associations. HERMES GOD OF - Greek Mythology

Do a google search for "Hermes language"

Or try "Hermes Thoth"

Or read Germania, by the Roman senetor Tacitus. he believed that Wotan/Odin (the god who invented/discovered the runes--the god of writing, poetry and magic) was the same guy as Mercury. What he wrote was that the german peoples chief diety is Mercury. The main similarity between the two gods, would seem to be the language/trickster/psychopomp thing. these two gods seem very different, though they both play that role among other roles that each respectively plays.

Look at a calander. Wednsday is of course Wodens day, the day of the god Odin. Now look at a spanish calander--that same day, the fourth day of the week is called....mercules, the day of the god mercury.


Or google Hermes Trismegistus. Hermes is muchly associate with Thoth and with writing. hence my assertion that the cross of Agadez, the Symbol for Mercury and the mushroom language thing. Your bit about the date the bee-shaman was painted seems to have some flaws. Cave paintings were frequently painted over and over and over. When was the bee-shaman first painted, can we say for sure? More importantly is the fact that language, I believe, was very likely a well developed this long before the supposed age of the cave painting. Language being let's guess 80 thousand years old and that cave painting maybe like 10 thousand years old. Language is way older than one painting of a mushroom shaman. That does not prove anything at all. Mushrooms could still possibly have catylized language. perhaps. I doubt that painting was made by the first person who ever tripped off of mushrooms. Also, the rudiments of language were probably there before the mushrooms came in and helped (if such a thing happened) the mushrooms could have played their role at any point during the development of language. The catalyzation could have occurred 10-12 thousand years ago, when that painting was being made.....or it could have happened 100 thousand years before that. Either way, the agadez seems associated with the cave painting AND with the symbol for Mercury and maybe Thoth, like santa odin and jesus and a host of other gods, was a mushroom. Sais I. maybe. They inspire me to poetry everytime I eats 'em, so for me, Thoth is a mushroom, for the human species, who knows?




About the pacific island of trash....I've read that the photo of the guy kayaking through rubbish is a hoax. IDK, just something I read. The thing is that plastic does dissolve, some plastics do anyway. they crumble in the sun. I've also read that the pacific trash island thing is actually in all the oceans, towards the center of each ocean there's a huge area where the top foot or so of the water is a nasty soup of dissolved plastic. I claim no knowledge, haven't been that far out at sea.

 

[fairbanks]

I think you rush to understand mythology a little bit too quickly. Mythology is murky waters. Hermes, like any mythological character, has multiple correspondences, multiple associations. HERMES GOD OF - Greek Mythology

Listen man, you made the blanket statement that Hermes was the god of language. That was one of his many attributes that I listed as multiple correspondences remember: fairbanks wrote:protector and patron of literature and poety but as well as thieves, herdsmen, invention and trade, athletic and sports. So if anyone was rushing their mythology, it was you my friend, putting the blanket of language over Hermes. In fact in the Homeric Hymns he is depicted as a trickster with words where the Muses chastise him as a baby for trying to talk his way out of predicament. "We know how to speak much that is false but seems like the truth, and, if we like, we also know how to speak the things that are true." - Muses. Which is ironic since you're trying to piece this who language puzzle together. So if anything he'd be the god of FALSE language. But we know this is not true, b/c he is depicted as the god of boundaries jumping between the mortal and divine realms constantly. Language was one of his many attributes, like most mythological gods.

Again, like I said in my first post to you, Mercury was god of trade. Mercury: Latin word merx ("merchandise"; compare merchant, commerce, etc.),mercari (to trade), and merces (wages). When Hermes was re-written with Mercury they were using Herme’s trait of trade. Stop putting this blanket of language over everything to connect your dots. It sounds like you’ve got some serious selection bias if you’re only pulling that out of this mythology to present your case.

And remember what Terrence said, "Culture is the effort to hold back the mystery, and replace it with a mythology" ~~~ "This is something, culture is not your friend. Culture is for other people's convenience and the convenience of various institutions, churches, companies, tax collection schemes, what have you. It is not your friend. It insults you. It disempowers you. It uses and abuses you. None of us are well treated by culture." -Terence McKenna

In regards to the bee-headed shaman rock art, you are completely off. First off, the Tassili n’Ajjer (plateau) is no older than 10,000 years as dated by optically stimulated luminescence on the plateau’s sediment. That means that the oldest rock art in there dates only as far back as the Neolithic era and as early as the beginning of the Christian Era. Almost every source you’ll find about the bee-headed shaman dates it around 6,000-9,000 BC meaning anywhere in the Neolithic era.

Also, Terrence wasn’t the first to give his interpretation of this rock art. Back in the 30s when Henri Lhote was in Tassili n'Ajjer he used the term "martian faces". Then later in the 60s Erich Von Daniken dubbed this alien notion a "serious possibility." It went as far as Jean-Loic Le Quellec interpreting it as martians! & Ethnobotanist Giorgio Samorini said the fungoid features of the shaman where rather morning glories instead of mushrooms. So you see there were a lot of different 'far out' theories of this rock art over the past century, it's not like TM just hopped on a discovery, more like just continued the radical lineage. In fact it was more like a manufactured discovery, as he only used his wife's dramatized re-drawing in his book Food of the Gods.

Original:

Kat Harrison-McKenna's Drawing:

As you can see she decided to add in a lot and spice everything up. The original rock art is nowhere near as dramatic as she portrayed. Even a lot of the patterns and lining were change, not to mention how many more mushrooms she added after the original 4 that were in the original.

Anyways. Please tell me how the cross of agadez

is related to this rock art. I would love to know. You seem to just bob and weave between mythology with selection bias to prove your standpoint.

Not trying to take anything away from your subjective exp with mushrooms, they're definitely a catalyst for creativity. But to apply all this objective occult theory to it is a bit annoying.

 

[fairbanks]

Also, in regards to your shpeel about the plastic. A) dude is not in a kayak but in a canoe lol. B) industrial nonylphenols DO not dissolve in sea water C) even the plastic that does break down makes it worse with smaller pieces and plastic particles in the water. You think that the plastic disappears if it starts to dissolve? No, it makes shit even worse!

In regards to the plastic that can't dissolve into tiny pieces/particles, the debris in the gyres reach concentrations of 20,000 pieces per square kilometer...that’s just shy of two pieces every 1000 sq feet. Imagine walking down a sidewalk (about 4ft wide). You’d encounter a piece of plastic debris every 100-150ft.

You are right that there is plastic patches in every ocean. The plastic patch in the atlantic is just as bad despite less press than that of the pacific.

 

[Doodazzle]

Hm. You seem the type to love scholarly debate. Prove yourself right! Prove the other guy wrong! A lot of your posts in this thread seem....a little raging. You even "lol" at me for mistaking a canoe for a kayak? Oh I get it, hahahaha, this guys mistook a canoe for, get this--a kayak! What a maroon! What are we competing over anyway? Fine, get out as kleenex cause you are going to cream your pants right now--I admit it, I was wrong and you are smarter than me.

Just kidding. But maybe I am mistaken.

Blanket statements that I made about a given mythological figures attributes....hermes had more role than one. Really, arguing about mythology is silly. you get nowhere with it. Well, you get a lot of wars when people take it literally...but you got your knickers all in a bunch over me stating that hermes was a god of language. Is this semantics? Did i say he was THE god of language? Thoth taught writing to the egyptians. hemers and Thoth were amagated into hermes tresmigistus (which i mispelled). hermes was the messenger of the gods, a trickster....kind of a psychopomp type of figure. Read the mythologies of the world, check out some Joseph Cambell--the trickster/psychopomp/messenger archetype pops up in many mythologies--often being associated with language, writing and magick.


Anyway, I'm seriously done with it. Lighten up dude.


The cave painting you just posted very much changes things. I'd seen that one before--for some reason, I thought it was a different bee headed guy. Now it turns out kat harrison "restored" the original? Maybe the original had a whole lot less mushroom iconography to it?

Perhaps the agadez cross is much less like unto the cave painting than we thought. Go ahead and bust a nut over that last sentence

then again....The "restored" version also has hand prints. Did she add those too? Or did she faithfully restore the thing, just bring out faded bits, reverse the image black and white and let us see what was there?

Also, in the original it almost looks like this bee-headed guy is wearing a loin cloth that hangs low, whereas in the resored version it appears to be his dong hanging there.

I don't know...and personally, I shant bang my head against the wall trying to prove the unprovable.

Peace.

 

[fairbanks]

no hard feelings man. don't take it personal. can't really understand a person's emotions or feeling over the internet...it's a forum though, a place to debate...I'm not the type of person to debate but when I'm on a forum I'm balls to the wall. There's a lot of disinformation out there, it's good to give counter points etc...sorry if you think I'm heated, it's just my writing style.

very true that we don't need to bang our heads against the wall trying to prove the unprovable. like TM said, all this mythology stuff is just a cover up of culture for the fact that it's all really a mystery. no need to connect the dots and do some selection bias to show how this came from that from this. it's a worm hole homie.

 

[MindRider]

Yep. Would love to talk about it over a beer or two. No Hard feelings at all, love a good discussion ( I'm Italian) but writing has its limits.

 

[cyb]

can't really understand a person's emotions or feeling over the internet...

One word...Emoticons...

They may be silly smiley faces but they can really convey meaning/feeling and emotion when used in context.. and help dispel misunderstanding :thumb_up:

 

[MindRider]

I could say that the US military is the dominant group amongst humans, and the entire planet..but it would be stupid to stretch that point as support for them also being the most intelligent group on the planet.

It is a fallacy.

Does evolution even have peaks in that way? Evolution is not a linear process.

Hilarious... the military. I lost you guys. I have to prove to you that we are the dominant specie on the planet? WTF are you talking about?

 

[jamie]

uhh what are YOU talking about? I never argued against us being the most dominant..I stated that this is true, but that this is NOT proof that we are the most intelligenmt. Please read my posts before responding.

 

[fairbanks]

can't really understand a person's emotions or feeling over the internet...

One word...Emoticons...

They may be silly smiley faces but they can really convey meaning/feeling and emotion when used in context.. and help dispel misunderstanding :thumb_up:

hahah :lol: so true. but not really what I meant in that context. he was coming at me as being some crazed debating nut job know it all. but this is an internet forum, the perfect place to debate!! I don't debate people in the real world, cuz that's just some pompous shit. the powerful personality always wins. the forum is the proper place to bounce opinions, facts, etc, to come to conclusion. if you put crazy comments out there, expect someone to counter the shit and be ready to back it up... I just didn't appreciate the ad hominem, when he doesn't know me from adam. IMO this isn't really a place to bring in all the emotions and personal stuff, leave it at the door (front page).

 

[fairbanks]

To provide some closure for this thread, I'd like to post this tribute to Terence McKenna's life called "Deep Dive into the Mind of McKenna". It sheds some light on who he was behind the scenes of his public persona and cult like status and struggles with the very medicine he preached. It's a reminder that tripping isn't just some magic carpet ride to an evolved cyborg state, rather reflection of the deepest self.

[YOUTUBE]

 

[MindRider]

uhh what are YOU talking about? I never argued against us being the most dominant..I stated that this is true, but that this is NOT proof that we are the most intelligenmt. Please read my posts before responding.

So the dominant specie is not the most intelligent one. Interesting. I need to ask an opinion to my bottleneck dolphin friend. Oh wait, he can't write yet. I'll wait a couple of thousand years then.

All this started because I said I liked McKenna's theory of the stoned ape...

whatever it's snowing in Tahoe.