aMT: Tryptamine's amphetamine

[Electric.Sight]

I smoked a small amount of aMT about an hour and a half ago just to get a feel for this substance. I probably only smoked around 5-8mg.
I love how it tastes, even better than DMT IMO! A little irritating on the lungs.
I am noticing definate effects at this level, and it is proving quite useful at waking me up and keeping me alert. I feel a little cloudy and dazed, but that could be because I haven't slept yet, or because I've been smoking jwh-018 all night till now haha.
Maybe small doses of aMT could provide pleasant "natural" stimulation and wakefulness to help through the day?

Either way, I'm looking forward to actually taking a real dose of this one day in the near future!

 

[Tangarine_Dreams]

be careful. amt is one of the few toxic tryptamines. i cant remember if its from overdose of regular use but it was used in the psych industry for years until it was found to be toxic. im sure its prolly nothing to worry about tho

 

[shoe]

Can you sight some evidence of this claim of toxicity? aMT is very, very simmelar to DMT in structure, and as such I don't think it should be toxic.

Secondly: electric sight, aMT doesn't have much amphetamine character to it, it is however, a full blown psychedelic, and sent SWIM on a 6 - 8 hour journey. Truly useful if you consider psychedelics to be useful.

 

[soulfood]

be careful. amt is one of the few toxic tryptamines. i cant remember if its from overdose of regular use but it was used in the psych industry for years until it was found to be toxic. im sure its prolly nothing to worry about tho

Are you sure you're not confusing this with 5-meo aMT?

 

[ibeing897]

Electric.Sight- AMT is active at 1mg... it's surprisingly trippy at just 5mg oral, you really have to go lower than that or you're in stimulant territory.

Tangarine_Dreams/shoe- being similar to DMT in structure would not make it non-toxic.. it's the effect caused that is [neuro]toxic, in the case of AMT it is a triple releaser, DA/SE/NE... in theory maybe it is toxic for the same reasons that MDMA is [possibly] neuro-toxic.. excess dopamine being neuro-toxic.. it's not known just how toxic this effect is and whether it's a cause for alarm.

 

[Bancopuma]

^^You must be quite sensitive dude, 20mg for me only produced very mild psychedelic effects, certainly nothing to compare to the other classic psychedelics.

Also I never felt a crash after AMT use, as can happen with MDMA or other stimulants, so while it may be neurotoxic, I feel that this is largely dependant on dosage and frequency of use. 30mg (2 doses spaced apart) was empathic and enjoyable but not that psychedelic...I got the feeling I would need to ramp up the dose more for those effects, and with that the chances of undesirable side effects.

 

[shoe]

Electric.Sight- AMT is active at 1mg... it's surprisingly trippy at just 5mg oral, you really have to go lower than that or you're in stimulant territory.

Tangarine_Dreams/shoe- being similar to DMT in structure would not make it non-toxic.. it's the effect caused that is [neuro]toxic, in the case of AMT it is a triple releaser, DA/SE/NE... in theory maybe it is toxic for the same reasons that MDMA is [possibly] neuro-toxic.. excess dopamine being neuro-toxic.. it's not known just how toxic this effect is and whether it's a cause for alarm.

As soulfood has just indicated, You need to have a deeper think about this. What is a chemical, if not its structure? were you not taught that you can compare members of homologous series, *all across the field of chemistry* to determine their properties??

the pharmacore does determine the toxicity. toxicity is usually caused by irreversible binding to some receptor, or sometimes by the structure of the metabolites.

MDMA and DMT are completely different chemicals. As DMT is almost certainly a part of normal brain functioning, and it is actively transported into neurons in the pineal, and metabolized extremely quickly, I'd say this is good evidence for it's non-toxicity, and although the argument remains open, if DMT is non-toxic, then it is almost a safe bet that aMT is also non toxic, being as they differ by only a methyl branch.

I agree, in some cases, a methyl branch is the difference between toxic and non toxic... the example here is methanol vs. ethanol. But understand, we are talking about a change relative to the size of the whole molecule. Since methanol and ethanol are very small molecules, an additional methyl group makes quite a change. Compared to an indole ring, plus or minus a methyl group is not a great change. Therefor: The evidence seems to point to aMT, like DMT, as fairly non-toxic.

All of this being said, I am aware theres been a deaths involving aMT. I'll assume that's why you're arguing that it is toxic. A death involving aMT and amphetamine. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16105268 SWIM also did feel a dayafter crash after aMT, comparible to an LSD session. But I think this is more to do with having been up all night tripping, disturbed sleep patterns. If mr boot had taken it at first light, he wouldn't have felt it so bad the next day.

My hope is that, like it's cousin DMT, aMT is a clear, clean tryptamine which is easilly metabolised in the brain, has short effects, is very light on the body, is completely safe - like psilocybin and pslicon which have been tested over thousands of years, and has many potential uses for a person who is knowledagable about the best use of psychedelics.

If you don't agree, please, enlighten me!

@Electric.Sight: doses were 25 - 30mg each. that was fine for "mr boot", but friends wanted a deeper experience on a higher dose.

 

[ibeing897]

^^You must be quite sensitive dude, 20mg for me only produced very mild psychedelic effects, certainly nothing to compare to the other classic psychedelics.

Also I never felt a crash after AMT use, as can happen with MDMA or other stimulants, so while it may be neurotoxic, I feel that this is largely dependant on dosage and frequency of use. 30mg (2 doses spaced apart) was empathic and enjoyable but not that psychedelic...I got the feeling I would need to ramp up the dose more for those effects, and with that the chances of undesirable side effects.

Sorry, maybe I'm misunderstanding this but I don't remember saying anything about the dosage resembling any other classic psychedelics... actually I didn't quantify the experience at all so this doesn't resonate with me. In fact it reads like you didn't read it properly. I could make that judgement later but I didn't just then.... the doses for AMT have been known for over 50 years, its well established that AMT is active at 1mg, it's in numerous texts... that does not mean it is a full blown effect (or psycadelic? when I said surpringly trippy I meant relatively, there is no reference point stated), 1mg is barely noticeable, but noticeable none the less (that's what active at 1mg means), 5mg is very very mild, not trippy like tripping, just well off baseline, more like an anti-depressent, but once you go over that, it becomes more and more drug like and less like an anti-depressent. If you're not feeling anything from 5mg, that means you're somewhat tolerant to the effects, but 20mg is of course mild.... also another thing I will point out to you is that AMT degrades quickly, I don't know where you got yours from, but good quality AMT will be stronger at lower doses, if you're not feeling anything from 20mg, then perhaps it's not 20mg anymore, maybe it's more like 10.

In my experience (I have a lot of experience with AMT and I'm as sensitive to it as everyone else), it doesn't "feel" neuro-toxic... it may not be. I haven't crashed either, no suicide tuesday or anything like that...but as I said, I thought I was clear, the drug damage has a theoretical basis... and like with any drug they could be fucking you up in all different ways... plus even the soviet union had toxicity concerns, don't forget AMT has been used as anti-depressant by A LOT of people.

 

[ibeing897]

also, AMT is not a traditional psychedelic, even in larger doses it doesn't become that much more psychedelic for most people it gets more stimulating in equal measure. It can be fairly colorful, you can see things, you get psychedelic thoughts... but I would compare it more to MDMA than mushrooms or LSD, mescaline... it does feel a lot like the low dose mescaline/mushroom combos I've done, very similar indeed, but the same sorta thing happens when you mix those drugs.

 

[ibeing897]

Electric.Sight- AMT is active at 1mg... it's surprisingly trippy at just 5mg oral, you really have to go lower than that or you're in stimulant territory.

Tangarine_Dreams/shoe- being similar to DMT in structure would not make it non-toxic.. it's the effect caused that is [neuro]toxic, in the case of AMT it is a triple releaser, DA/SE/NE... in theory maybe it is toxic for the same reasons that MDMA is [possibly] neuro-toxic.. excess dopamine being neuro-toxic.. it's not known just how toxic this effect is and whether it's a cause for alarm.

As soulfood has just indicated, You need to have a deeper think about this. What is a chemical, if not its structure? were you not taught that you can compare members of homologous series, *all across the field of chemistry* to determine their properties??

the pharmacore does determine the toxicity. toxicity is usually caused by irreversible binding to some receptor, or sometimes by the structure of the metabolites.

MDMA and DMT are completely different chemicals. As DMT is almost certainly a part of normal brain functioning, and it is actively transported into neurons in the pineal, and metabolized extremely quickly, I'd say this is good evidence for it's non-toxicity, and although the argument remains open, if DMT is non-toxic, then it is almost a safe bet that aMT is also non toxic, being as they differ by only a methyl branch.

I agree, in some cases, a methyl branch is the difference between toxic and non toxic... the example here is methanol vs. ethanol. But understand, we are talking about a change relative to the size of the whole molecule. Since methanol and ethanol are very small molecules, an additional methyl group makes quite a change. Compared to an indole ring, plus or minus a methyl group is not a great change. Therefor: The evidence seems to point to aMT, like DMT, as fairly non-toxic.

All of this being said, I am aware theres been a deaths involving aMT. I'll assume that's why you're arguing that it is toxic. A death involving aMT and amphetamine. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16105268 SWIM also did feel a dayafter crash after aMT, comparible to an LSD session. But I think this is more to do with having been up all night tripping, disturbed sleep patterns. If mr boot had taken it at first light, he wouldn't have felt it so bad the next day.

My hope is that, like it's cousin DMT, aMT is a clear, clean tryptamine which is easilly metabolised in the brain, has short effects, is very light on the body, is completely safe - like psilocybin and pslicon which have been tested over thousands of years, and has many potential uses for a person who is knowledagable about the best use of psychedelics.

If you don't agree, please, enlighten me!

@Electric.Sight: doses were 25 - 30mg each. that was fine for "mr boot", but friends wanted a deeper experience on a higher dose.

No, you did the same thing as Bancopuma... I don't need to think deeper about it, you haven't read what I wrote properly and you are making some major assumptions that I do disagree with -sorry...this is a common nexus thing where people read into what is written rather than read what is actually written.. I never said anything about pharmacore... actually I think you need to think deeper about it... and it seems like you've written a bunch of paragraphs mostly agreeing with my point... heres what I said "being similar to DMT in structure would not make it non-toxic", that statement is TRUE (not false)- and you validated it as true with your explanation. You've gone into detail about how a structure may be toxic, and that's good, but you seem to have missed a major aspect of what makes these things toxic or not... drug structure and metabolism are only part of what could be harmful... my main point is about the effect caused... if you take AMT it causes your body to release other chemicals in ratios that are believed to be toxic, that has nothing to do with the relationship in structure to DMT, they obviously have different effects, those effects could be toxic. + I'm not even sure DMT is non toxic... we know the molecule itself doesn't cause toxicity, it doesn't have any toxic metabolites, but you don't know if your body dumping endorphins or massive amounts of andrenaline, you don't know how toxic those combos of by products are.

 

[ibeing897]

As soulfood has just indicated, You need to have a deeper think about this. What is a chemical, if not its structure? were you not taught that you can compare members of homologous series, *all across the field of chemistry* to determine their properties??

the pharmacore does determine the toxicity. toxicity is usually caused by irreversible binding to some receptor, or sometimes by the structure of the metabolites.

This part reads like an overstatement to me, I mean when you say what is a chemical if not it's structure?? that's a fine point (but I've got to point out annoyingly, that I didn't say anything about chemical structure not being important), ---what about all the other chemicals that released/synthed when you take the first chemical? sometimes it's your body's own chemicals that are released by the drug that is the problem.... it's the same with MDMA, the structure of MDMA is probably not implicated, it's the complex interactions of the released chemicals and their structures that are the problem.

 

[ibeing897]

my last comment about this... a good point to bare in mind, I know we all know this. DMT is a trace amine naturally occuring in your body. AMT is not... think about that in relationship to what I've said. Some things are in your body, being used for something, like DMT, you put it in, it serves the same function... cannabis is like this too, but other drugs, like AMT, cocaine, speed, etc... they don't replace something in your body, they metabolize (possibly into something else, or a several things), set off receptor sites and cause your body to release other chemicals. These chemicals in the right numbers/ratios could be harmful..more harmful than scrapping your knee, who knows? but it's just a fact. People should just know from experience that DMT and AMT are nothing alike (ok the molecule structure is similar), but why do people expect them to have the same safety profile?.. we don't know much about either one.

 

[jamie]

I have had a few people with experience tell me at festivals that AMT is more like a psychedelic amphetamine than it is like other tryptamines..

Just becasue AMT is structurally similar to DMT doesnt mean a thing..really thats a dangerous way to judge something..look at the pharmacological differences between LSA and LSH compared to LSD in terms of the dosage curve and LD50...

I have never had AMT, only becasue I asked alot of people with experience before hand and from what I gathered it did sound somewhat more toxic than psilocin, DMT and mescaline etc..doesnt mean its not worthwhile..MDMA was worthwhile for me the 3 times I took it but I still concider it to be somewhat neurotoxic. Just look at some of the erowid reports on AMT, some of them do sound both amphetamine like with at least mild toxicity.

 

[jamie]

actually now that I think about it, from what I read and others told me of AMT it sounded fine at a low empathic sort of dose, but then seemed not an ideal tryptamine for deeper psychedelic experiences. At one point I was very interested in AMT, but the idea of dealing with alot of stimulation and possible toxicity at a higher dose made it unappealing to me.

 

[ibeing897]

Don't get me wrong, I think AMT is fantastic, and it feels safe actually you feel in better health for weeks afterwards. Even though it is a psychedelic MDMA like drug, it still has some of the qualities of the natural tryptamines. I prefer it to MDMA I feel it's more natural feeling, like I said before it is very similar to my mescaline/mushroom combos.. and when I say similar I mean almost indistinguishable. Following on from the previous discussion, this whole question of toxicity is so complex, there are situations when effects can trigger the body's natural repair mechanisms and sometimes these repairs can net you health dividends over toxicity. There are also compounds like ibogaine that seems to trigger massive brain repair, and this is whilst your vomiting your guts out. Something to think about. I think DMT fans will love AMT, Fractal u should try it.

 

[shoe]

if you take AMT it causes your body to release other chemicals in ratios that are believed to be toxic, that has nothing to do with the relationship in structure to DMT, they obviously have different effects, those effects could be toxic. + I'm not even sure DMT is non toxic... we know the molecule itself doesn't cause toxicity, it doesn't have any toxic metabolites, but you don't know if your body dumping endorphins or massive amounts of andrenaline, you don't know how toxic those combos of by products are.

Hopefully this time it'll just click and you'll realise I have a point, and then we can discuss it. whatever chemicals DMT may release when metabolised, AMT will release very simmelar ones. If DMT is non toxic, it's a fair bet to say that AMT should be nontoxic too. I won't restate the case.

And ANYWAY, I've changed my mind now. I think there may be some credibility to this now, after reading more about the deaths. Much as I wouldn't like that to be true, I think we should remain in the know that there is always a risk associated with taking any chemical.

I just don't want to indulge your efforts to know chemistry, and to prove that you know chemistry anymore.

 

[Bancopuma]

I think the risks of neurotoxicity of AMT may be overstated, and come with very high doses, and/or frequency of use.

I don't think a study has been done looking at the neurotoxicity of AMT in particular, but one has looked at high doses of a closely related compound, alpha-Ethyltryptamine (AET):

Huang XM, Johnson MP, Nichols DE (July 1991). "Reduction in brain serotonin markers by alpha-ethyltryptamine (Monase)". European Journal of Pharmacology 200 (1): 187–90.

Now I'm not a chemist, so I can't say if AMT is most similar in structure to DMT or AET, but I'm going to guess the latter.

So I think it's dodgy to extrapolate from other compounds of similar structure when discussing things like toxicity. And then we have 5-MeO-AMT, which is known to be toxic, with a much lower LD50, and has killed a fair few people. It is clear to me there are considerable differences between the effects of AMT and DMT, and while there might be similarities in effect I think they will definitely have their own unique biochemical impacts on the brain.

P.S. Ibeing789 we're all individuals here and react differently to things...you stated that 5mg was "surprisingly trippy" and I was just stating that I didn't find that to be the case at all. A staggered dose of 30mg produced minimal trippy effects, some colour enhancement and subtle patterning, but that was it really, the body buzz was quite powerful however. The doses used by people on Erowid seem to be much higher still, but I'd rather choose something else if I'm trying to achieve powerful psychedelic effects.

 

[ibeing897]

P.S. Ibeing789 we're all individuals here and react differently to things...you stated that 5mg was "surprisingly trippy" and I was just stating that I didn't find that to be the case at all. A staggered dose of 30mg produced minimal trippy effects, some colour enhancement and subtle patterning, but that was it really, the body buzz was quite powerful however. The doses used by people on Erowid seem to be much higher still, but I'd rather choose something else if I'm trying to achieve powerful psychedelic effects.

Yeah we're gonna have different ideas of what "surprisingly trippy" denotes, I mean, I don't know how hardcore you are, it's relative isn't it... your effects sound the same as mine, 30mg does pretty much that...I'll tell you about my experience with 5mg, I once took it to try it out, heard it was a nice pick me up, went to work on it, found it impossible to work, far too distracted and actually anxious/twitchy as well + a low level nausea... thats what I meant by "surprisingly trippy", I should've said "surprisingly active" I was expecting 5mg to do much less much love.

 

[justine]

P.S. Ibeing789 we're all individuals here and react differently to things...you stated that 5mg was "surprisingly trippy" and I was just stating that I didn't find that to be the case at all. A staggered dose of 30mg produced minimal trippy effects, some colour enhancement and subtle patterning, but that was it really, the body buzz was quite powerful however. The doses used by people on Erowid seem to be much higher still, but I'd rather choose something else if I'm trying to achieve powerful psychedelic effects.

Yeah we're gonna have different ideas of what "surprisingly trippy" denotes, I mean, I don't know how hardcore you are, it's relative isn't it... your effects sound the same as mine, 30mg does pretty much that...I'll tell you about my experience with 5mg, I once took it to try it out, heard it was a nice pick me up, went to work on it, found it impossible to work, far too distracted and actually anxious/twitchy as well + a low level nausea... thats what I meant by "surprisingly trippy", I should've said "surprisingly active" I was expecting 5mg to do much less much love.

That's surprising because 5-10mg pills of amt used to be prescribed in the soviet union as an antidepressant.

 

[ibeing897]

Hopefully this time it'll just click and you'll realise I have a point, and then we can discuss it. whatever chemicals DMT may release when metabolised, AMT will release very simmelar ones. If DMT is non toxic, it's a fair bet to say that AMT should be nontoxic too. I won't restate the case.

And ANYWAY, I've changed my mind now. I think there may be some credibility to this now, after reading more about the deaths. Much as I wouldn't like that to be true, I think we should remain in the know that there is always a risk associated with taking any chemical.

I just don't want to indulge your efforts to know chemistry, and to prove that you know chemistry anymore.

We're having a discussion now, it's no longer a debate and we're all making points. I have an issue with the way you write these msgs, I don't know if it's rude or snappy or what, but it's unnecessary, and if you want me to reply to you, you need to ease off. Maybe I'm missing something but I thought you replied to my point and I replied to those points, this post is a little strange I've got to be honest, we've already reached agreement and I'm trying to see your point of view, you've said some accurate and interesting things, but you're gonna have to convince me about this DMT releasing similar chemicals to AMT statement, is that true? I don't think it is. I still dispute this statement "If DMT is non toxic, it's a fair bet to say that AMT should be nontoxic too", we discussed this man .

I'm not actually interesting in knowing chemistry, I just know about AMT from experience I've researched it before, but I believe the bulk of my writing was basically stating that there are so many complex interactions that it's actually very hard to know how toxic something is... you can have the chemistry knowledge, I'm not into it no hard feelings buddy.