Bad trips on Ketamine IM?

[zapped17]

This question goes out to all those intrepid psychedelic explorers who have had some experience with IM-administered Ketamine at K-hole (psychedelic-level) dosages:

Is it possible to have a "bad trip" down the K-Hole, in the same sense that one may have a bad trip on LSD, psilocybin, or DMT? Has anyone experienced first-hand such bad trips with Ketamine?

At first past, the answer to this question may seem obvious ("Well, of course it's possible :thumb_dow " ) But there are a few considerations that lead me to think otherwise.

A bad trip on, say, LSD, DMT, or shrooms, is characterized by terrible fright, intensity, and panic/franticness - likely due to the ego's struggle to maintain itself and it's control. However, Ketamine is a substance unlike the aforementioned (tryptamine based) psychedelics - it's a dissociative anesthetic. Furthermore, based on my understanding of others' experiences with ketamine, it seems that the element of fear is completely eradicated from the possible "trips" one may have - by virtue of Ketamine's dissociative properties. Ketamine seems to detach one's consciousness from the ego/ all egoic concerns.

I've heard mixed things about ketamine effects, and anything negative seems to be imparted by those individuals who have done Ketamine at sub-psychedelic doses or in recreational settings (usually insufflated). Those who go intramuscularly for the psychedelic K-hole dose tell a VERY different story...

 

[Guyomech]

I've not gone the IM route but have taken a gram through the nose, and in each case it was an incredible psychedelic experience, comparable to a milligram LSD dose but way quicker, with much more warn fuzziness. I could see how a person could end up in a dark hole- not panicked, like a bad LSD trip, but dark and depressed and abysmal. I've heard of horrible K-hole experiences. Mostly, though, ketamine will stroke and cradle you and whisper warm and reassuring things. It's a completely seductive experience, mostly devoid of those sharp corners, which is what makes it so dangerous. I stopped taking it the moment i realized I was feinding for it. so: be careful. I know of two ketamine warriors who don't have a pot to piss in and don't seem to care. No other psychedelic seems to have such intense habit forming tendencies.

 

[zapped17]

Thanks for weighing in, Guyomech.

It's a completely seductive experience, mostly devoid of those sharp corners, which is what makes it so dangerous. I stopped taking it the moment i realized I was feinding for it. so: be careful. I know of two ketamine warriors who don't have a pot to piss in and don't seem to care. No other psychedelic seems to have such intense habit forming tendencies.

Yes, health/safety should be emphasized especially with K. SWIM is aware of the highly addictive nature of K as well as the deleterious effects it may have on the brain with chronic use. Fortunately, SWIM has very good self-control, and doesn't think addiction will be a problem.

I could see how a person could end up in a dark hole- not panicked, like a bad LSD trip, but dark and depressed and abysmal.

Could you (or anyone else with experience) elaborate on this a little? It's difficult for me to wrap my mind around the phenomenology of a K-Hole experience just based on what I have heard from others.

 

[Guyomech]

Well, as mentioned earlier, I can't personally weigh in on that one. I watched a friend go into a dark K-hole for about 30 min... He appeared to nod off in the couch, and later described it as a sort of dark, depressed paralysis, devoid of any visionary qualities. This was .25g, insufflated. That's the best description I can give you. I'd say it's an unlikely outcome, and less damaging than a bad LSD trip.

 

[olympus mon]

One thing to consider is why Ketamine was stopped being used on the battle field in Vietnam. Its was used as a replacement for morphine which was being abused recreationally to administer to soldiers injured in war. They found that more men were dying from injuries that didn't see so life threatening. The repeated reports of men who survived told that they felt as if they were dying and saw a tunnel with a light at the end. The thought process was that men who weren't actually dying felt they were and just gave up trying to stay alive. Ketamine was removed from the battle field.

I dont have 100% confirmation of these facts but did read about it when I served and have seen my own death with Ketamine more than 1 time. I enjoyed my Ketamine experiences, I wouldn't say they are as knowledge filled as other altered states but I wouldn't say they are useless by any means.

Side note- It drives me F'n crazy when people say Ketamine is a horse tranquilizer! :surprised Because something is used on animals doesn't make it a veterinary anesthetic.

 

[polytrip]

You can definately have a bad trip on NMDA-antagonists like ketamine. As a child i had to make a lot of trips to the hospital for surgery. I have never taken ketamine but i have been send to the N2O-hole quite a few times (i figure it´s more or less the same as a K-hole) and i always felt a terrible fear when it happened. Later i have used it recreationally on a few occasions, wich is ofcourse completely different and much more pleasant because of the set and setting. But i know from experience that you can definately feal fear or panic with these types of anasthetic´s.

 

[corpus callosum]

Some years ago I used pharmaceutical grade ketamine IM at 1.5mg/kg which for me was K-Hole territory and I found it thoroughly refreshing and rather invigorating, especially when compared to oral DXM, the only dissociative I'd used previously.I didnt find it especially seductive or 'fiendo-genic' which is clearly different to alot of people.This may relate to my personality-type or to the unmistakeably extreme nature of the experiences which in and of itself demands caution.

Each experience was positive and ,IMO, solo missions on the long-acting classic psychedelics before these trips served as good preparation.I think the dissociatives are less in need of a 'positive' mindset than the usual suspects and I'd imagine that an unsuitable mindset could produce a cold empty and subjectively futile experience in some ways more akin to death with nothing afterwards rather than an actively Hellish and tormenting experience.Less anxiety-provoking than the classic agents but still potentially damaging towards ones outlook.However, I think it could torment in ways I couldnt imagine if I'd used dissociatives before the classic psychedelics, and this would have to include fear and anxiety of some kind.

Setting for a K hole IM dose will need strict attention- a place to lie down and ideally no external stmulation of any kind to really let oneself delve into the state.The beauty of the IM route is its rapidity of onset (within 1-2 minutes), a baseline state at 45-60 minutes and economy of dosing.Other routes such as oral/insufflated seem simply wasteful and second-best when compared to IM, IME.

 

[polytrip]

Could you (or anyone else with experience) elaborate on this a little? It's difficult for me to wrap my mind around the phenomenology of a K-Hole experience just based on what I have heard from others.

From my experience with these type of dissociatives (ibogaine, N2O and DXM) i can say that there is one thing all these substances have in common: there is the feeling of the counsciousness dissolving, fading-out, and losing contact with the body/the world. There is also a very strong mechanic sort of feeling, as if your counsciousness, while dissolving is being narrowed down to just some very minimal neural mechanisms, like a very modern computer that can play movies that is being slowed down to a 90's computer that can only show very mechanically moving images.

When the experience is positive, it's very warm and pleasant. Like your counsciousness is being brought back to it's very essence and there is just pure energy left instead of any real content (wich can be a euphoric experience in a detached sort of way).

The frightfull experiences i had, when i was knocked out with N20, where realy uncomfortable. I can only describe it as just fading-out and there being the very strong sensation of impending doom.
Ofourse the set and setting of those experiences, a child undergoing surgery, are sort of the worst you would want for a trip, but i still don't realy like NMDA-antagonists for this reason.

That sense of impending doom (oh,oh, what's gonna happen to me?)is always lingering somewhere in the background with these substances, for me. I even have that feeling with ibogaine, to some extent.

 

[zapped17]

When the experience is positive, it's very warm and pleasant. Like your counsciousness is being brought back to it's very essence and there is just pure energy left instead of any real content (wich can be a euphoric experience in a detached sort of way).
.

Yes - I've frequently heard that Ketamine induces experiences of boundless, oceanic consciousness; "atemporality" (all future and past events blurring together and converging on a focal point); information/cyber-space; multiple alternate realities; etc. Intriguing....