• Members of the previous forum can retrieve their temporary password here, (login and check your PM).

Better ROI for Kratom?

Migrated topic.
Hank Scorpio

Hank Scorpio

Rising Star
I've been experimenting with Kratom a bit lately, and I've been having trouble finding a good way of ingesting the stuff without wanting to vomit a bit.

I've got a bag of powder, not capsules or anything. The taste really makes me gag, and as many of you guys would know, the powder is very hydrophobic, which makes it really difficult to mix with things.

I've tried making a Tea, but it seemed to lose a lot of potency that way. The best method I've found is actually to mix it with honey. The honey at least absorbs/dissolves the powder, and partially covers the taste, but it's still far from ideal.

Do any of the Nexians have a secret trick for ingesting this stuff? Or should I just find a different supplier that sells capsules?
 
Hi mate,

Havn't used Kratom for a few years but all I did was brought some empty gelatine capsules from ebay and filled them myself. cheap as well. see link.

hope this helps

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Empty-Gelatin-Capsules-size-00-x-100-Hard-gel-caps-Halal-Avg-Fill-weight-750mg/203041884062?epid=502639419&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item2f463d479e:g:t~MAAOSwHcdfQVTO&amdata=enc%3AAQAFAAACgBaobrjLl8XobRIiIML1V4Imu%252Fn%252BzU5L90Z278x5ickkrmmq8hWevtuKE7%252F%252BLfVXtq15CdfD6hbWf%252F2y%252Fq8clTHPmW9wj9yajSLhw7LxTiPX8GKP2tdBthd6sO%252BiJxuzcxMvvWyhAkJeaP33IOkZJOZPj4VTcbAmCtiSIHhB5XOAoNxGZB1%252FcZaviqScUSb0ToEWQwsemArT2nQ23x66GoMkPggkZmTXQswrZA5y%252Fwj6%252Brcki7k%252BkAwGl9A9Xkzo%252BEZLzTAW18GAmsm%252FE89pYrgR%252By4xWEltKT9iZykLfmnjCaXktrBXkESc0nD2asjk%252BNNNLPAfJOPLJ1Q3hoyV5NUTW%252BP%252F9ea%252B6aE%252FhTJF5s7nkyswqnI8ILcDg%252FvKhVNbwUS1B%252BY0Hz3mfXsUmh9neMu2Ep3k67QEnXhTg6%252BlW51xJI22htOE%252BSmleiJmnGQa%252FvHJZd%252B4DS7jRYtOt5%252B8oL8JCQZlYxuvxRU%252Fz0S7RxMzgAw6RNat8zhJz0qxDRDEMXtf8k4w%252BnL2fvARGzQ1L%252Bs8aeC1I8AkqfE1bh%252FVnVyjWWMPHAAQzSVrwrcft%252F7xLJa9%252FEbCZQeTjB8nP9MM5ZCmfdZK4niKnnfOtB6hXD3SJmVWMs9jz0Mo3ntgedX9WaelflQ6Yj8E8bWhZbKJZlxJuECeHPmVu08bqE6vbbyTU5QCH5x4ubJMNmKz8JpEwRbNBh6Y5KOo945iSy4tbp0gay9iNz3BTlhpeoU6K5iKAX2KmpVde45TUa%252BeBx5U%252Fv%252F7tjiMAdO3tyox5yF4ZU4C1Zx2A5t0Bw3Ei5nyY84zuML5Z7WsZ%252Br2Oado4kT2suaH23ZBetiiithgvdrZjcs%253D%7Ccksum%3A203041884062fd0773388f134eb6930e22b9eea0b979%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A2334524
 
making a tincture is a very effective way to create a potent extract. It tastes way worse but the volume is less, and its liquid.

But remember as potency increases, so does addiction liability. Careful with this one. Very useful and even innocuous if used sparingly but don't get into daily use if you don't need to (like for pain or cycling off of pharmaceutical opioids); as I'm sure pretty much everybody knows by now.
 
There are two easy solutions that come to my mind. Things which I already have access to and would do if I were in your position.

1) Capsules. I find that the taste, smell, and aftertaste of something which makes me nauseous will make me more nauseous if I can taste it while nauseous. Putting the kratom in capsules is really easy and cheap. Yamma1 posted a link below for an ebay listing of capsules.

2) Datura. Now I am not talking about eating large amounts or chasing delirium, or taking enough to even feel anything (including a dry mouth). A single seed or two from any datura species has a really effective (and clean) ability to stop nausea completely. I will note that I am talking about *microdoses* only. Also taking datura with kratom will potentiate the kratom slightly. Certain species of datura will potentiate more of the stimulant aspect of kratom (Species high in hyoscyamine are stimulating). Whereas other species of datura will potentiate the sedative aspects of kratom (Species high in scopolamine are sedating).

I am soon to order some kratom, I have no experience with it however I am prone to nausea from other opioids, so I too would like to know how to combat nausea.
 
@ lemon flip -- re: caps. Many people do find capsules to be a very effective way to use this plant, however IME the caps get stuck in the throat and add to the stomach load honestly.
and Re: microdosed datura for nausea; this is a very good tip, I forgot to mention it. I utilize datura seeds as a first line treatment for all sorts of nausea or motion sickness, scopolamine being the antiemetic par excellance that all the synthetic antiemetics wish they were. I use 3-7 seeds for anything that causes nausea (usually 5), and based on some old threads around here (and their ubiquity) the D. Strammonium is supposed to be the most consistent in alkaloid content. Works best as a pre-treatment, but also works if taken when you start feeling nausea.

As far as potentiation, can't say I noticed any improvement, but I was always somewhat "noseblind" to the subtle effects of the kratom because I abused it and took massive doses pretty much daily. Consistently measuring doses (and keeping a consistent measurement) will do something to slow down any habituation, but still don't use this stuff more than 1 or 2 times a week max. If tolerance is going up, dependence isgoing up, and W/D's are right around the corner.

On a slightly unrelated note, I HAVE noticed distinct potentiation with ayahuasca analogues -- the inner visions seemed to become more clear and crisp (which is kind of ironic, because the effects of a full dose of the seeds would be anything BUT clear.

Anyway, good luck.
 
Ayahausca and Kratom are contraindicated because of the MAOI... please be careful.

I've been able to hide the taste of kratom in a chocolate smoothie - something thick like avocado or banana, with some cacao and lots of sweetener (maple syrup/honey/agave). Ymmv.
 
Back when I took kratom the 2-3g i'd do for a dose was thrown into a 1/3 cup warm water, a shake of cinnamon from a shaker, and about a teaspoon of ginger.

Funnily enough the kratom alone taken diffuse in water and drank tastes terrible, though when adding a good amount of ground powdered ginger and a shake of cinnamon almost completely masked the taste and came out to be a whole new taste. Not too bad tbh. But idk, I had gotten used to the taste over time anyhow, so.

Also, the anti-inflammatory effects of a good dose of ginger for me can be felt pretty strongly a few minutes after ingesting 1 tsp+ ground powdered ginger and lasts for a good few hours though with the most prevalent anti-inflammatory effects within the first hour or so. That mixed with the effects of the kratom always had a very nice adjunct-feel to it, so I guess it potentiated it in some sense. Good ol' gingerol baby
 
I just want to add another big addiction warning disclaimer. I personally developed tolerance to the point I was taking 15 grams to get the same effects that 3 used to give me. When I stopped the withdrawals were the worst I ever had. Opiate withdrawals accompanied by 'full restless body syndrome'. I was wiggling around like I had done a massive dose of bad methamphetamine on top of the sickness, fever, etc... Be very careful with Kratom.
 
Dirty T said:
I just want to add another big addiction warning disclaimer. I personally developed tolerance to the point I was taking 15 grams to get the same effects that 3 used to give me. When I stopped the withdrawals were the worst I ever had. Opiate withdrawals accompanied by 'full restless body syndrome'. I was wiggling around like I had done a massive dose of bad methamphetamine on top of the sickness, fever, etc... Be very careful with Kratom.
Click to expand...



This is very interesting. I never noticed any withdrawal symptoms, and I have been up to taking quite the large dose. I have been taking Kratom regularly since I got off of Suboxone. It has actually helped me stay clean from pills and worse for longer than I have ever been able to before. I also do not get high of of it in the same sense that, say more popular opiates would get me. I started taking 3-5 grams, and I take it until I get up to the point of taking 13-17 grams to achieve the same effect. This takes roughly 4-6 months for me to build this level of tolerance. Once I get to this level, I just simply stop for a week. The most I have experienced was a bit of a lump in the throat and a night or two of minor sleep difficulties. I have heard from other friends that the withdrawals can be similar to more common opiates, but I have not had the same experiences, which leads me to believe it has much more to do with your own body; as we are all different.


In regards to taking it without puking, lol, I use an old gatorade bottle and swirl it around until it is as dissolved as it will get, pinch my nose, and relax my throat and take it down like I'm chugging a beer (this is a talent that not everyone has; I can chug a whole beer in a matter of 1 or 2 seconds). While this may not work for everyone, it does for me. There are also methods of extraction that can be found here at the nexus 😁

Hope this helps!
 
I've always used the toss and wash, which after a little bit of practice is generally pretty painless and requires no tools or prep. Citrus really cuts down the bitterness and improves flavor. If you're okay with swallowing larger amounts my friend always breaks up a dose into several smaller parachutes and swallows those, which he claim's is leagues better and has less room to mess up, although I haven't tried it so I can't confirm.
 
I’ve been taking a few grams of kratom twice a day for a few years now, and haven’t noticed much in the way of tolerance or withdrawal symptoms, but will keep an eye out after reading this thread.

I found it easiest for me to take loose kratom by counterbalancing the bitter with sour. I would add a gram or two of ascorbic acid to some citrus juice or powdered Gatorade and water. It almost made it bearable.

But the vendor I use, offers capsules for about 10% more cost than loose leaf powder. I don’t think I could go back to choking it down, at this point.
 
I used to toss and wash too, but it made me choke from time to time before I really figured out how to do it properly.

I want to second Dirty T's input though. I have had very uncomfortable withdrawal symptoms from Kratom when I stopped using it about a decade ago. I only started using it because all sources about it back then stated that it is not addictive. It took me around 2 weeks to get over the withdrawal symptoms. Some people seem to have no issues stopping to use it. I am sure there are benefits to it, but I would use it with caution. I loved it so much.
 
Best ROA: Put your dose into a cup capable of proper mixing (something roundish bottomed like some whiskey/wine glasses etc) . Add a minimal amount of HOT water and mix it up. The heat negates the hydrophobic-ness. Then add a bit of cooler water to get it cool enough to be able to drink. Again, use minimal amounts of water, because the less you have to chug the better: if you can get the water quantities correct so that you can do it in a single gulp, then this is ideal. Chase the vile sludge with some more water.

You could play around with other things but I've tried most of em. Capsules get to be to tedious; you need to take too many of them and/or spend to much time filling them up and/or cost is higher. Toss and wash just doesn't work for me and has choking hazards. Parachuting is also incredibly dangerous. I've almost died doing this. I've had a whole ball of kratom wrapped in tissues paper get stuck, and open up in, the back of my throat. I managed to hack it out and powder went flying everywhere across the room and i was left in a coughing fit.

RE:addiction:

This stuff is obviously addictive. Anyone who says otherwise is an idiot. "It's a natural drug". ....kay'.

That being said, anything you do in life should be done on the premises of cost to benefits ratios and margins of safety. There are pro's and cons.

One of the major cons that is apparent to me is the intestinal problems this sh** causes. Not only do you get the constipating effects of opiod agonism, but you're also eating extremely fine particulates of leaf fiber. If you have a habit then you're doing this on a regular basis and in larger quantities. This stuff has wrecked havoc on my intestines compared to other opiates (methadone being potentially just as bad or worse, but it's hard for me to gauge that given the lack of controls, # of variables, and my unwillingness to repeat the experiments).

The one time I stopped taking kratom was about 6 or so years ago. I was taking about 40ish-60ish grams a day iirc. I don't have a clue what the 'quality" was. When I stopped taking it I was also stopping etizolam. I didn't particularly notice much opiate-specific w/d effects, although there was some.

I'm about to stop taking this stuff again sometime over the next month or so. I'm on about 20grams a day at the moment after tapering off and switching over from suboxone. I'm expecting to not get much more than mental depression/cravings, some restlessness and maybe minor, general w/d's . I don't expect it to be too bad. But we'll see. It seems like peoples reactions to this stuff is very varied..
 
Spiralout said:
RE:addiction:

This stuff is obviously addictive. Anyone who says otherwise is an idiot. "It's a natural drug". ....kay'...
Click to expand...

I think this may be a very important point that people should be more aware of. There are numerous recent studies linking opiate addiction to a genetic predisposition. It appears some who have noted withdrawal symptoms, in this thread, also noted previous opiate addiction.

I have a brother who’s had the same opiate prescription for 30+ years and has never needed an increase in dosage, and another who has a strong aversion to opiates (nausea, paranoia, etc.). I took about five grams twice daily of lucky 7 for about two years and recently switched red vein meng da, which I only need about three grams of for the same affect. I can still feel this amount and the high from it is strong enough that I’m nearly constantly aware of it, and occasions where I curtailed my use for various reasons never lead to withdrawal for me.

I’m assuming I may be an outlier here and the danger of Kratom addiction should be more common knowledge than it is. I’ll no longer be recommending it for pain management unless the individual has a history indicative of a lack of a predisposition to opiate addiction.
 
roninsina said:
Spiralout said:
RE:addiction:

This stuff is obviously addictive. Anyone who says otherwise is an idiot. "It's a natural drug". ....kay'...
Click to expand...

I think this may be a very important point that people should be more aware of. There are numerous recent studies linking opiate addiction to a genetic predisposition. It appears some who have noted withdrawal symptoms, in this thread, also noted previous opiate addiction.

I have a brother who’s had the same opiate prescription for 30+ years and has never needed an increase in dosage, and another who has a strong aversion to opiates (nausea, paranoia, etc.). I took about five grams twice daily of lucky 7 for about two years and recently switched red vein meng da, which I only need about three grams of for the same affect. I can still feel this amount and the high from it is strong enough that I’m nearly constantly aware of it, and occasions where I curtailed my use for various reasons never lead to withdrawal for me.

I’m assuming I may be an outlier here and the danger of Kratom addiction should be more common knowledge than it is. I’ll no longer be recommending it for pain management unless the individual has a history indicative of a lack of a predisposition to opiate addiction.
Click to expand...
Speaking as someone versed in low bottom addiction i experienced kratom as a double edged sword. I used it recently to deal with knee pain that was excruciating. It helped. But as the pain subsided i just wanted to take it to get high. I have known addicts to relapse after starting kratom after some time clean. I have know addicts who weened off opiates with it, mostly just moving to kratom as a substitute. I stopped because i had a couple incidents of erectile dysfunction that really ruined imtimacy moments with my wife. Quitting also gave me restless legs, digestive issues and general grumpiness. Just my experience. No judgements.
 
skoobysnax said:
Speaking as someone versed in low bottom addiction i experienced kratom as a double edged sword. I used it recently to deal with knee pain that was excruciating. It helped. But as the pain subsided i just wanted to take it to get high. I have known addicts to relapse after starting kratom after some time clean. I have know addicts who weened off opiates with it, mostly just moving to kratom as a substitute. I stopped because i had a couple incidents of erectile dysfunction that really ruined imtimacy moments with my wife. Quitting also gave me restless legs, digestive issues and general grumpiness. Just my experience. No judgements.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your dauntless candor, skoobysnax. I have found dosing my kratom/ibuprofen/curcumin pain management regimen requires quite a bit of patience on my wife’s part, as well, on our stay-up nights. I have, as a rule, been skipping my dosing, a few nights a week, in order to avoid this. This twenty four hours between doses a few times a week, may be partly responsible for a lack of increased tolerance for me.
 
Here's something I came across recently...and after just finishing a cup seems fairly accurate.

Basically, if anyone is brewing Kratom tea using leaves, although powder would be an interesting experiment, that due to the poor solubility of the principal alkaloids in water, an extended steep length and/or lowering of the PH (adding an acid like citrus) can drastically increase efficiency.

molecules-20-04915-g002-550.jpg

Note: SIF pH=6.8, SGF pH=1.2

The paper:
www.mdpi.com

Understanding the Physicochemical Properties of Mitragynine, a Principal Alkaloid of Mitragyna speciosa, for Preclinical Evaluation

Varied pharmacological responses have been reported for mitragynine in the literature, but no supportive scientific explanations have been given for this. These studies have been undertaken without a sufficient understanding of the physicochemical properties of mitragynine. In this work a UV...
www.mdpi.com www.mdpi.com
 
Just updating with regards to my experience of the addiction side of this discussion. I have had a period of a few months over the winter where I wasn’t observing my dedicated skipping of a few doses per week and found a somewhat reduced analgesic effect, though I managed to maintain my same dose of 3grams of red vein meng da twice a day.

I felt it was time to give rue a chance again, as I somewhat recently learned that the ph of my local tap water can range above 10 and I’m virtually the only person on the entire forum who didn’t bother acidifying their rue brews in order to facilitate harmala solubility. I remedied that with a gram of ascorbic acid and 5 grams of rue per half liter of water (ph5) for those interested.

In the interim, I did suffer a few days of withdrawal which involved a significant increase in pain that was primarily in the joints, some strong fatigue accompanied by restlessness, chills with fever, nervousness, and loose bowels.

Here we are, five days later and the symptoms suddenly passed this morning. The rue is sufficing as a substitute for a supplemental analgesic for the time being, as well.
 
Back
Top Bottom