Commiserate Chemistry & Helpful Advice

[bassmethod]

I have a fair amount of research into basic chemistry and an understanding
of math and chemical equations, at the basic level, but my two questions are:

1) How strenuous and variant has your experience with researching chemistry
and extractions been in order to have a good performance?

2) Should one have a good understanding in biochemistry as well in
order to perform these things?

My curiosity is geared towards figuring out which fields I should be focusing
on more in this area.

 

[endlessness]

When you cook a meal, you dont need to know biochemistry, right?

You do need to understand the principles of each step though (for example why is salt added? So food can get more salty.. Then if its not salty enough you know you need to add more salt. No need to measure or know exactly what happens with the molecules there. Or why do you heat? If food is too hard, you let it in the oven for a bit longer, etc).

So, same thing with extractions. Read the FAQ, most of the basic info should be there. Read a few teks, as the FAQ extraction overview suggests, to understand in basic terms why each step exists and what is happening. And go for it ! Just remember, dont throw anything away until the final yield is achieved, and nothing will be lost! Good luck!

 

[benzyme]

When you cook a meal, you dont need to know biochemistry, right?

yea you do..
to cook well, anyway.

 

[endlessness]

Ahm, no you dont.. Unless you're implying an illiterate person who has never heard of chemistry knows biochemistry. Because I can guarantee you there are several of these people that cook marvelously

 

[bassmethod]

When you cook a meal, you dont need to know biochemistry, right?

You do need to understand the principles of each step though (for example why is salt added? So food can get more salty.. Then if its not salty enough you know you need to add more salt. No need to measure or know exactly what happens with the molecules there. Or why do you heat? If food is too hard, you let it in the oven for a bit longer, etc).

So, same thing with extractions. Read the FAQ, most of the basic info should be there. Read a few teks, as the FAQ extraction overview suggests, to understand in basic terms why each step exists and what is happening. And go for it ! Just remember, dont throw anything away until the final yield is achieved, and nothing will be lost! Good luck!

Great analogy, endlessness. Thank you. I think my illusion when approaching the
extraction phenomenon is looking clear over the horizon and not seeing the trees.

 

[endlessness]

If there's any step in teks you dont understand the purpose after reading the FAQ and some different teks, feel free to ask

 

[benzyme]

Ahm, no you dont.. Unless you're implying an illiterate person who has never heard of chemistry knows biochemistry. Because I can guarantee you there are several of these people that cook marvelously

not as marvelous as biochemists

http://www.sciencedaily.com/videos/2009/0112-chemistry_of_cooking.htm

A nationally recognized scientist and chef says knowing a little chemistry could help.

Long before she was a cook, Shirley Corriher was a biochemist. She says science is the key to understanding what goes right and wrong in the kitchen.

"Cooking is chemistry," said Corriher. "It's essentially chemical reactions."

 

[endlessness]

Interesting link, though bad argument. The link only gives some examples why chemistry can help some people in some cases in the kitchen, which I never denied (just like im not saying knowing chemistry wont be good for extractions). That is not nearly the same as saying you need to know biochemistry to cook well (or be a biochemistry expert to extract succesfully). I could take you to some places around the world where illiterate people cook the best food you have probably ever eaten, or show you pure extraction results from people with no formal chemistry knowledge.

The whole point to the OP was that he can extract without being an expert, as is the case with many people here. It is natural (and recommended!) that he should try to understand the basic reasoning of the processes behind each step, of course, but its not necessary that he feel daunted if he doesnt know chemistry deeply yet. I know I didnt know squat about chemistry when I first started this all, but I took care to understand basics, and certainly over the years I've learned a lot reading and experimenting. In the same way I think he and everybody else can do it with some basic information, and having many successful extractions since the beginning during that continuous process of learning.

 

[benzyme]

or show you pure extraction results from people with no formal chemistry knowledge.

I'd certainly like to see that. I've seen the claims of "pure" thrown around all too often, yet no mention of any characterization methods used. At the very least, one should conduct a melting point test or TLC to be able to determine whether or not a product is pure.

I was being facetious about the cooking example, but extraction is a different ballgame (ex. solvent selection, purification techniques, etc.)
no, you don't need to be a chemist to do an extraction...but you'd probably end up with a finer product if you were

 

[endlessness]

BLAB extraction results have been tested as single spot in TLC and also tested for purity in UV-Vis spectrophotometry.

A year-old slightly oxidized yellow sample that had been converted from fumarates by water crystallization was at 80% pure. I will be doing a new extraction soon and will test when its freshly extracted and water conversion how pure it is.

Sure I did already learn plenty of chemistry so it wouldnt be the same as someone with no chemistry knowledge at all, but then again I wont be doing anything other than described in the BLAB, which people extracting for first time without formal knowledge (but a bit of good sense/small research of course) are perfectly able to do

But you are absolutely right that someone with more chemistry knowledge might be able to make an even better extraction (also because to get to highest purities, as you're aware, one would need sublimation or column or whatever more advanced technique), but a re-x can be done by just about anybody and yield it quite reasonably pure.

You know what you are talking about benz, but my analogy is perfectly fitting in this case, that good enough extractions can be made by people such as this curious fellow starting the thread, who will read the wiki and forum for some days and will make a successful extraction even if he is not very chem-savvy

 

[benzyme]

agreed

what was the separation method used in conjunction with MS-UV? (it's wasn't TLC. it's typically GC, LC, or CE.)
[the orientation would actually be UV-MS...absorbance detection, then ionization/ion detection.]

 

[endlessness]

Hmmm pardon me it was a UV/Vis spectrophotometry, not a UV-MS.