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Considerations with Regards to Attunement of Consciousness and Experience of Esoteric Phenomena

Sorry see my edit, as I think it’s at the core of the question.

“Edit: I’m curious what your reason is for making the jump from ‘unmeasurable now’ to ‘equally valid as measurable’ and what you think makes it an valid jump? So what is in between?”
 
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I’m curious what your reason is for making the jump from ‘unmeasurable now’ to ‘equally valid as measurable’ and what you think makes it an valid jump? So what is in between?
I'm juggling hypotheticals (since things are very much conditional to me), so only making that jump symbolically.

The things that were unmeasurable we're likely treated the same way as other unmessurable phenomena at the time: superstition, in a persons head, etc. So from a epistemic stance, it's still a sandy beach.

So I think we should keep certain things in the conversation and not use biases of explanatory power and coherentism as well as the restrictions of science (replicability, repeatability, etc) to make claims that ought not to be made. "That's not real" is very different from "we can't pin anything down about it." Acupunture is a great example. Western science says it's bullshit. I think a better claim is western science can't reliably measure it.

I think that thats one of the inherent points.

The high point of the bell-curve of consensus reality may be very narrow and we focus so much on it because we have that consensus, but that doesn't mean everything within the bounds of that consensus is all that is "objectively" real.

One love

Ps. Again I just woke up 🤣
 
It’s not that science can’t measure acupuncture. It has been measured many times, with reproducible methods, and the results consistently show no effect beyond placebo. That’s different from unmeasurable phenomena: here the evidence exists, and it doesn’t support the claim. And because the underlying theory of meridians and qi never matched biological knowledge, those negative results only weaken it further.

The question, however, is still open. An analogy isn’t a justification. That some things once unmeasurable were later confirmed doesn’t mean all unverified claims deserve the same status. Do you think they do? If so, why?
 
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all unverified claims deserve the same status, or do you think they do, if so why?
Nope, they don't deserve the same status. But verified means it appeals to a certain scope of a certain model. What if the model has a limited scope? If that's the case, there may be "objective" phenomena that will never be considered because it doesn't appeal to the model, and by virtue of that, appeal to our metaphysical assumptions, which in a certain regard, are just ways we'd prefer the world to be.

I think that there are somethings that we write off that further investigation can be done on. With acupuncture, maybe the wrong things are attempted to be measured such as muscle quality and tension release, but that's where it could be more of a somatic benefit and not a physiological one, though to get there one has to tap into the physiological frame.

And don't get me wrong, I understand your stance deeply. Maybe that's why I do what I do. I think that the rigor of science is beautiful in a world of broken interpretations, but it's not exempt from broken interpretations itself.

If we look at the history of science, it's a history of settling in an opinionated and arbitrary way that people latch onto.

I revisit this article.


One love
 
I think Voidmatrix is on one and all this shows is how he needs to put the changa pipe down.
🐙
I won't lie, I do have some ulterior motives, such as working on confidence as well as feeling like I can flow in these dances again.

I do feel I have a point. I don't feel I'm delineating it well 🤣

One love
 
I won't lie, I do have some ulterior motives, such as working on confidence as well as feeling like I can flow in these dances again.

I do feel I have a point. I don't feel I'm delineating it well 🤣

One love
Here is me trying to delineate you in ten posts 😁. I think the real challenge is when we don’t know what we’re testing or what would count as evidence, that moves from empirical work into speculation, only evidence makes theory obtainable and stronger.

Finally science does have limits and it isn’t immune to flawed interpretations, but its strength is continuing correction over time. Until there’s a method that does better at producing reliable knowledge, scientific inquiry remains the best we have.
 
I won't lie, I do have some ulterior motives, such as working on confidence as well as feeling like I can flow in these dances again.

I do feel I have a point. I don't feel I'm delineating it well 🤣

One love
Your stance is a stanceless free fall. You never pick a side, you're always flirting and walking the line, why you out here trying to bring everyone into your chaos and calamity 🤣
 
Here is me trying to delineate you in ten posts 😁. I think the real challenge is when we don’t know what we’re testing or what would count as evidence, that moves from empirical work into speculation, only evidence makes theory obtainable and stronger.

Finally science does have limits and it isn’t immune to flawed interpretations, but its strength is continuing correction over time. Until there’s a method that does better at producing reliable knowledge, scientific inquiry remains the best we have.
Well now! I think there's plenty of times we know what we're testing we just don't know how to test for it! Or we assume we can when we may not be able to.

And I agree, but I'm the type that thinks those limits should ALWAYS be acknowledged. Otherwise, we have faulty or flawed interpretations, such as claims made from science regarding things it can't really play with.

With regard to the placebo and nocebo effects, this connects to the idea posited initially around the idea that what of there are unmeasurable or currently unmeasurable things inherent to consciousness that is a dictating factor to what can be experience from the world. It connects this is a very basic way though, because we have to start there.

One love
 
Say everyone is a radio. Let's say there is a range within all of the receivers for what they can receive. Let's also say that most people have the same spectrum of receivers. This means there is some information they cannot receive. Does this mean, that because it doesn't appeal to the greater population it's unlikely for another receiver to have a broader range of signals it can pick up? No. It also doesn't make what they're able to pick up less external or objective. But that's how we interpret things: if a minority has some kind of experience than the majority, there's something wrong with that minority's interpretation.

However, 1,000,000 people can be wrong in a situation where one person is right.
Ooo i really like what you wrote.

I might add that the radio is not a fixed object. Imagine if you will, the radio does have a defeault set up of instrument to do readings, however... Sometimes the radio gets an upgrade of instrument or downgrade maybe it was decay, maybe the radio evolved or an alien implanted new instruments inside it. Now that 1 radio has the ability to view a different array of data.

The other radios can choose to believe or disbelieve that 1 radio but even if they believe (in the truth). It does not mean that they are genuine Truthfull..
It's a deluded radio that happend to follow a truth sayer.

Enough about radios, I do think that we as humans are more then flesh and have souls that is connected to Truth and that gives us the opportunity to be alive.. Expanding and when need time off, contracting our conciousness.

In this physical world its my task to get real with myself and follow my truth in a way that fits in with the others, so not to disturb others on their quest.
But my personal truth can also be for me to defend myself if i do find myself in contact with someone who i dont agree with and gets hostile about it.
 
@Varallo How do we know accupuncture is not better than placebo? Care to post some links? I am under the impression that accupuncture is quite well established as effective for various things. Thanks!

This is a pretty solid study to read.


The following study is a famous one used by quacks to promote their practice, for non academically trained people it’s very difficult to read this and come to the conclusion that there is no effect or to really understand what the implications are.

 
@Varallo How do we know accupuncture is not better than placebo? Care to post some links? I am under the impression that accupuncture is quite well established as effective for various things. Thanks!
I don't have links, but as an acupuncturist, I can share personal experiences. First and foremost, it's like this:
With acupuncture, maybe the wrong things are attempted to be measured such as muscle quality and tension release.....
The problem with Chinese medicine is that successful treatment relies on a proper Chinese medical diagnosis – not a Western one. If you're in the camp of Western medical consensus reality, and you apply your perceptual and cognitive bias towards the practice of acupuncture, it simply will not work. You won't pick up the correct diagnostic cues of your patients and will choose a set of points that do nothing.

Those who approach their acupuncture schooling like learning a new language always get amazing results. Those who continually try to reframe the ancient Chinese way of assessing the body to fit their "more scientific" perspectives are rotten practitioners who do the profession a disservice.

It's a matter of what reality you consent to. If you approach the Western and Chinese medical paradigms simply as a language rather than an absolute reality, then your ability as a practitioner will be stellar.

It’s not that science can’t measure acupuncture. It has been measured many times, with reproducible methods, and the results consistently show no effect beyond placebo.

"Studies" often like to use "placebo" points. This points to a complete lack of proper schooling. There are -5- channel systems – not just the one represented in multiple diagrams and statues. Two of these channel systems are quite wide and completely envelope the body – they are not distinct lines. Basically anywhere you place a needle activates one of the 5 channels. If you know what you're doing, you know what channel system to activate, what points to needle, and in what order.

"TCM" – a system created in Maoist-era China – further muddies the water. It basically condensed several schools of thought into one tenuous system of practice. Diagnostic approach is based on assessment of the organs (internal, i.e., herbal medicine) rather than the channels (physical medicine). In large part, TCM is responsible for poor clinical outcomes due to diagnostic confusion and use of only one channel system. In other words, unless you get taught by someone who comes from a lineage, you're like a 3 year old walking around Grand Central Station at rush hour.

As far as acupuncture being "placebo" – 狗屁!

You need to take a dump? Three points:
St-25 (regulates the large intestine according to CM)
St-36 (scientific studies have shown this increases peristalsis)
GB-41 (opens up the so-called "Belt Vessel", or 帶脈)

I needle those points, you will poop within 25 minutes.

Bone fracture? No problem. 2-5 treatments, and I'll see you later. Go to your doc, get an X-ray or MRI or whatever. The proof is in the pudding.

9-months pregnant and you're as big as a 1970s land-yacht? Come see me, and in 18 hours you'll pop that bun outta ya' oven.

Want to get pregnant? Why would you ever want to do that? OK – I like your reasons. I'm gonna poke you in places your stud can't and in ways he don't know how to and badda bing, badda BOOM: honey – you pregnant. 2-4 treatments.

Multiple people, multiple times. And the students who listened to me – they had the same results.

If you want point combinations and techniques, PM me. =D

My point is: different cognitive models are necessary when trying to get a desired result. Some work for certain things while others don't. If you're flexible mentally and willing to learn, you'll see places where paradigms overlap, and can use these things to your advantage.....
 
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I'm a full-blown believer in yet unrecognized energetic phenomena related to elevated states of consciousness, but I can really sympathize with the skeptical point of view. I think it's too much to ask them to look away from the current paradigm towards something so fantastic as to sound like it's from a fairy tale. Having lived half of my life unaware of it as well, I can see how ridiculous it sounds.
 
Yeah, we're talking neuroplasticity or openness here.

I also believe making a distinction between gullibility and openness is an important step to take.

You don't have to easily believe everything you are presented with, but you also don't have to easily write them off either.

For me that's the healthy stance.

There is a difference between the scientific method and scientism or science as a human institution.

I personally don't feel like the label "paranormal" does much service to the work of exploring reality. İt precludes certain, numerous, and unrelated phenomena as "residing outside the normal" (it's charged with a judgement).
 
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Which kind of skepticism? That which appeals to a given paradigm, or a deeper skepticism, that suspends judgement?

My position comes from the latter.

One love
I'm referring to skepticism in the colloquial sense, so a kind of strong leaning towards firmly established scientific understanding and institutional faith. I sympathize and even highly respect this type, since it's their rigor that got us where we are.

I understand what you mean when you describe another kind of skepticism, and you could definitely place me in that category as well.
 
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