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dissociatives comparision thread

Migrated topic.
I just wan´t to go out with a general warning for anyone who does any experiments with these kinds of drugs.

I have been using mxe for a little more than one year but the last months ive been feeling it poisoning my mind, ive generally had less motivation than usual and also i havent been taking care of myself like usual.

Anyway i made the decision to hide my stash of mxe, ketamin, 3meopcp,etizolam and opoium outide a good hour from my house.

the reason being that i feel that i have somewhat lost my way from the natural sources of teacher plants that this forum is dedicated too.

I have not smoalked in over a month and haven´t had a strong brew in a year. shrooms i haven´t touched since oktober either.


I suspect that the reason being that somehow i know that ive become far to fond of these dissios and their easy way of tripping.


But tripping should not be easy and therefor i won´t touch them or anything that has a "fleing" effect untill i´m back in the hands of the tryptamines that i love.


I hope i´m not the only one getting these vibes and that noone get´s to deep into this dissio mess.
 
SHroomtroll said:
I just wan´t to go out with a general warning for anyone who does any experiments with these kinds of drugs.

I have been using mxe for a little more than one year but the last months ive been feeling it poisoning my mind, ive generally had less motivation than usual and also i havent been taking care of myself like usual.

Anyway i made the decision to hide my stash of mxe, ketamin, 3meopcp,etizolam and opoium outide a good hour from my house.

the reason being that i feel that i have somewhat lost my way from the natural sources of teacher plants that this forum is dedicated too.

I have not smoalked in over a month and haven´t had a strong brew in a year. shrooms i haven´t touched since oktober either.


I suspect that the reason being that somehow i know that ive become far to fond of these dissios and their easy way of tripping.


But tripping should not be easy and therefor i won´t touch them or anything that has a "fleing" effect untill i´m back in the hands of the tryptamines that i love.


I hope i´m not the only one getting these vibes and that noone get´s to deep into this dissio mess.
Click to expand...
It sounds like you went a bit too far with the dissos based on your post and the list of dissos in your stash box. I think using these things more than twice a month is probably not a good idea. Once a week is probably okay for a little while, but if you are dosing up on back to back days... you are definitely overdoing it.

As you said, it is way too easy. Too comfortable and pain-free. There is no mindfuck, and while there is ego death at high levels... it is pretty well painless. The classic entheogens all require a commitment and a fair amount of courage. To get out into the cosmic realms, you have to face your demons... and often come to terms with a frank assessment of how you are dealing with your life. Your physical state, emotional state, spiritual state... how you treat yourself and others are all front and center. (as they should be if you want to grow)

Dissos, on the other hand, can be rather escapist. They tend to help you overlook the kind of stuff other psychs force you to see. Even when they heighten your sensitivity and give you perspective (which they can certainly do), they tend to let you focus on the positive while ignoring the negative. MXE especially can be extremely therapeutic and clear (for a disso) so that you can think of it like a supplement. People get tempted to use it as an anti-depressant or a kind or ADHD treatment. This is probably a mistake.

I think that MXE must be dealt with very strictly. It stays with you for a long time, and is extremely dehydrating... as is DXM. This can come back to bite you in the ass if you are not really conscious about hydrating (taking a bath helps). Also, it can make you feel somewhat spread thin after a while of regular use. Even once or twice a week for a couple months can detach you from your life, and unlike DXM or K... it is too easy to function this way, so one can be tempted to go with it.

All of that said, I think dissos in general, and MXE specifically, are still rather incredible tools for exploration and can be amazingly therapeutic. Done infrequently, they can be very valuable. Especially for people who wouldn't be able to handle a large dose of the traditional psychs. There are people who would surely lose it on a moderate dose of aya or even a hit or two of LSD... who respond very positively to MXE. The boundaries and walls it dissolves are generally better dissolved, and having them drop away can be very liberating. Not to mention that the higher (3rd plateau type) doses can be the easiest entry into extreme transpersonal and entheogenic states with immersive out of body experiences and entity encounters very easy to achieve in a darkened room.

Definitely be careful people. Especially with any RC, as we have no quality control and the various samples floating around are rather different in appearance and effects. But I would not necessarily advise against experimenting with these substances. They can be really incredible and worthwhile IMHO.

HF
 
Tbh i have not really done dissios that much. No more then 1-2 per month in general.
But still after this time i just dont get that feeling of saturation or fulfillment that a psychedelic experience should have.

For instance if i eat some shrooms or drop some cid i rarely would like to do it again the next day unless iam at a festival or similar,

but with these dissios i tend to want to do it again just a few days after if not sooner. So far ive kept these urges under control, but still i feel an addiction

slowly building up.


So really im taking control of this situation before it becomes a problem and doesnt ruin these awesome compounds fo.me



slowl
 
I know that this is an old thread, but if its ok I'd like to add a few thing (however I only have my fone for Internet so it'll be a little truncated)

Neurotoxicity: I believe it to be a stretch to extrapolate "olney's lesions" in humans from the findings with rodents, as others have already stated; in fact I think these sorts of animal testings to be much less useful than warrants the mass sacrifice of various and at least somewhat intelligent beings. I have two rabbits and one is an albino similar to the ones they like to do tests on and she is such a noble beast. I'd like to talk more about that but it isn't within the scope of this thread clearly. But there is something to be said that these animals develop profound brain damage at extremely high doses of NMDA antagonists for extended periods of time, that is do not use these substances at high doses for extended periods of time. As has been stated their are apparent cognitive impairments present in frequent users of some of these drugs. In my younger days I discovered DXM (to early) and began using it compulsively, at points I would use 3-4 days out of the weeks. This obviously began to cause me problems, at first mostly emotional disturbances such as irritability, depression, impulsivity bouts of irrational anger, and general malaise towards life. This was probably both my natural teenage boy moodiness being accentuated by the frequent dxm use. Eventually I began developing some moderate delusions, lots of fantastical ideation that I half believed to be true, an ascendence with DXM as the trigger for exponential evolutionary growth (clearly getting bad). At around this time I stopped using the stuff for about 2 years, at which point with just that much more maturity I tried it again, and never have I developed a compulsive use pattern. I believe it was just a combination of factors, my impulsive youth being a big one.

I would like to note that Amanita muscaria and the crew may be just as if not more likely to be neurotoxic as the NMDA-antagonists. Ibotenic acid, which is a primary component of the mushroom, acts as a prodrug for muscimol but likely contributes little or no psychoactivity itself. It is known to be highly neurotoxic to rodents, and is actually used as a reliable lesioning agent! Ibotenic acid ! . I read a report in Dale Pendell's book about a researcher who bio assayed an amount of ibotenic acid and experienced the first migraine headache of his life which lasted several days. Only 10-20% of ingested ibotenic acid is converted to muscimol. I believe drying or heating converts it as well, so eating fresh Amanita probably isn't a good idea (I've read reports to the contrary). For me, Amanita just felt intoxicating until I fell asleep, at which time I had a non-visual vision that I WAS a patch of Amanita muscaria growing in symbiosis with a pine tree on a cold, wet day. I felt myself form fruiting bodies and everything, but saw nothing. I had the sight that only the fungi posess. So it seems almost analogous to reports of visionary use of tobacco, it is used until passing out and only once one falls unconscious do the visions come along.
I think at least as much caution should go to ingesting psychoactive amanitas as with the NMDA antagonists.

I'll have more but that's way more than I want to type on a fone
 
I've always been interested in reading a bioassay report on dizocilpine, butthe stuff seems if anything to be one of the more dangerous dissociatives... This is the particular substance used to produce the infamous "Olney's lesions", as well as being used in animal models of schizophrenia as it reliably produces both the positive and negative symptoms of (some types) of that disorder-complex...

Am I mistaken in thinking this substance more dangerous than some of the other NMDA-antagonists? It seems to be superseded by ketamine in the clinical setting due to the much lower half life and potency - so perhaps it isn't intrinsic to Dizocilpine but rather the Antagonism elicited is greater or more prolonged than with something like ketamine:.. Apparently outlasts even PCP and it is active in the microgram range.
From this one report over on erowid the MK-801 seems like a terrible dissociative... Creepy even.
 
IIRC, the olney-lesion hypothesis has been around mk-801. PCP was the classic NMDA-antagonist probe.

olney lesions were of particular interest to me (I binged on pcp in my late teens), but studies on it haven't been conclusive, and MRI scans of my own melon showed no such lesions.
the brain is amazingly elastic, as long as you don't wreck it with prolonged exposure to excitotoxic substances, and free-radical compounds like MPP+.
 
I have a gram of s-isomer ketamine, i have only done racemic before and iam wondering about the difference in effect with the two.

Anyone have any experience with both kinds and can tell me about it?
 
I also think sally is a disso. The 2 I haven't tried are ketamine, and ???. I enjoy MXE the most. Dxm never did anything for me. But good clean PCP is king even though it is extint wher I live.

The mxe is unpredictable. I do 100 mg IM (Godshot). Sometimes/most times it is a super phenominal experience. And other times (same dose), just kinda makes me tired for a few hrs.
 
AluminumFoilRobots said:
I would like to note that Amanita muscaria and the crew may be just as if not more likely to be neurotoxic as the NMDA-antagonists. Ibotenic acid, which is a primary component of the mushroom, acts as a prodrug for muscimol but likely contributes little or no psychoactivity itself. It is known to be highly neurotoxic to rodents, and is actually used as a reliable lesioning agent! Ibotenic acid ! . I read a report in Dale Pendell's book about a researcher who bio assayed an amount of ibotenic acid and experienced the first migraine headache of his life which lasted several days. Only 10-20% of ingested ibotenic acid is converted to muscimol. I believe drying or heating converts it as well, so eating fresh Amanita probably isn't a good idea (I've read reports to the contrary). For me, Amanita just felt intoxicating until I fell asleep, at which time I had a non-visual vision that I WAS a patch of Amanita muscaria growing in symbiosis with a pine tree on a cold, wet day. I felt myself form fruiting bodies and everything, but saw nothing. I had the sight that only the fungi posess. So it seems almost analogous to reports of visionary use of tobacco, it is used until passing out and only once one falls unconscious do the visions come along.
I think at least as much caution should go to ingesting psychoactive amanitas as with the NMDA antagonists.
Click to expand...

Caution is always a good idea.

As far as Amanitas go... you definitely need to dry those things bone dry. Seriously crispy is best. It is not enough to let the dry slowly in a typical room. They should be left on a radiator ideally. There is a reason that shamans hung them in stockings by the fire... the precursor to the Xmas tradition.

I find that even letting previously bone dry Amanitas take on humidity from a typical room will reduce their potency. Some of my colleagues disagree with me on this though. Amanitas are difficult to adequately determine their amount of active ingredient without using lab equipment... and even then, as many of the tests you could do would involve wetting or moistening the material.

Anyway.

Despite the significant spiritual wisdom that can be found in out ever lovely and ancient Fly Agarics, I do find that the disso effects it engenders are easier to achieve and much more reliably with more modern chems.

My 2c.
 
I don't see any mention of 3-meo-pcp in this thread. Perhaps i skimmed over it?

Compound : 1-{1-(3-Methoxiphenyl)-cyclohexyl}-piperidin.HCl , >99% (HPLC)

29wqsrl.jpg


Description : Psychedelic Dissociative
Dosage : 4-12mg+
Administration : Intranasal, sublingual, IM/IV
Duration : ~4.5h +/-1h depending on dosage; after-effects not included
Typical course : First effects at 30', strong onset at 1h, peak at 2h, sudden drop at 3h


This compound is pretty rare and there is not a whole lot of information on it yet but it is supposedly equipotent to actual PCP as an NMDA antagonist while also having a strong affinity to the U-Opiod receptor. I have personally tried it a few times in the 8-15mg range and find it far superior to MXE. I find it more sedating and far less stimulating than MXE. I have also experienced very complex, dreamlike CEV's while under the influence. Duration seems similar to MXE IME.

I tend to get overstimulated on MXE and really do not enjoy that aspect of it. The effects of MXE are all over the place for me. Periods of dissociative effects, hallucinogenic effects, and stimulating effects. Microdosing the MXE was nice for a daily moodlift but I found this to be extremely addictive behavior and have not purchased any more because of it.
 
I have to bump this to see if anyone else has anything to say about the 3-MEO-PCP that i mentioned. I am extremely fond of this compound. Again, i find it completely superior to MXE!

Microdosing has extreme anti-depressant effects and active dosages are nothing short of absolute magic.

i find that 15 MG is my "magic" dose. It's actually scary how incredible it is.

Anything over 15MGs is a waste of this compound and there is a very steep dosage curve so please please please exercise extreme caution with such potent chemicals. I can't stress this enough. I read one report from an article called "Interview with a Ketamine Chemist" where 50 mgs was IM'd and produced a near catatonic state. The guy ended up being fine but my point is that anything above 15mgs of this substance is getting into unknown territory and i cannot comment on that any further. Milligram scales are a MUST for 3-MEO-PCP and I don't see any point in exceeding 15mgs for any reason without extensive prior experience and a sober sitter.

I would also suggest a small dose to make sure you have no allergies prior to ingesting an active dose. Probably best to do your allergy test a day or two before you take your first active dose. Once you have confirmed that you have no allergies to the compound and decide to move forward with your research I would suggest starting at about 8mg and working up to find the best dose for you. For me it seems to be between 12-15 mgs. It takes 30 mings to an hour to peak and the peak lasts 1-2 hours with mild after effects lasting up to a few hours.

To those of you who are interested in Arylcyclohexylamine and analogues, I have to recommend that you get a sample of this from your trusted supplier before it ends up being unavailable. It is very expensive but with the active dosage being so small you can easily get 35 doses out of 500 Mg's for around $2-4 per dose(depending on the quantity you purchase). I requested/received/experimented with two 50 mg samples before finally purchasing 500mgs for myself. I have done plenty of experimentation with this compound over the last couple months and I'm pretty sure its my new favorite.

For those of you who may have tried 4-meo-pcp... not even comparable... So if you tried 4-meo and weren't impressed I would highly recommend you give the 3 meo version a chance. Please excersize extreme caution! I simply can't point that out enough!
 
3-meo-PCP is a very interesting one.

It is incredibly potent, with an extremely long half life.

Personally, i did not care for it. The half-life of this compound is just too long. Iirc, some of it gets reabsorbed from the fat into the bloodstream. I have heard numbers as long as 7 days, but I have no idea the reliability of these numbers..

I think the polarity of the ketone group in the molecules like ketamine and mxe, decreases the half-life by allowing it to be excreted easier. (its more hydrophyllic, especially ketamine)

I prefer these ketone dissociatives, also, I might add the 'hole' effect achieved with the ketone dissociatives is far greater, or so it seems to me. (I could not remember the 3-meo-PCP hole if i tried:lol: )

MomentOfTruth, this compound certainly has a VERY steep dosage curve....
In the midst of my dissociation, I once made a mistake and took a bit too large of a dose... the half-life of this compound is what kills you when you dose too high.

I lost a full 50 hours.. friday 4pm, come back to my senses sunday afternoon..

Other then that, it is still quite an extraordinary compound. But it was not the kind of dissociative I was looking for. Too functional, not as mystical... but it DOES certainly have it's mysteries don't get me wrong..
:p

Anyone who likes to microdose or otherwise do low doses of dissociatives (like mxe) would definitely love this compound. Its an incredibly 'functional' dissociative

---
3-Meo-PCE, on the otherhand, seemed to be snug in between these two different types.
a bit of both worlds, I liked it very much.

PCE, however, is something different altogether. Its a powerful kingpin, almost too overwhelming.
 
I totally agree with you as far as the PCP being far more functional than other dissociatives. I kind of found it hard to put it in the same class as MXE and Ketamine because i don't think you can really "Hole" on it like the others. I found it to have a strong bodily euphoria more along the lines of an opiate than a dissociative. I personally found the effects of MXE to last longer than 3-MEO-PCP, with the MXE being kind of a wild ride that comes in waves similiar to mushrooms. But each wave has different effects. I never did 100mgs of MXE in one sitting because every time i'd get above 50-60mgs there would be a long phase over over stimulation that was accompanied by a racing heart and sometimes a drunken spinning sensation. The spinning on MXE was not nauseating like alcohol but still it was uncomfortable to me.

3-MEO-PCP for me is like the perfect mix of sedation/euphoria/pleasurable body load with some closed eye visuals at larger doses. The CEV's were very dreamlike with the PCP vs. being more abstract with the MXE. I do like MXE in smaller doses but for me the effects just stuck around too long and gave me insomnia. Plus like I mentioned, i did not like the phase of overstimulation that i'd get almost everytime I did a moderate dose of MXE as it made me extremely uncomfortable. I have not run into the same problem with the 3-meo-PCP.

Thanks for adding some insight about this compound from another viewpoit, Mindillusion. I appreciate the response!
 
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