OK, maybe more hopeful than smart!
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Freedom & Modern Systems of Control
- Thread starter northape
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Honestly, you are a hard one to get. I feel your vibe more than I understand it.
It feels that you're coming from a good-hearted standpoint, but your reasoning about aggression is difficult to comprehend.
Somehow, you created a system inside where there is some resolve and balance, but I need your life experience to get it, most likely.
I appreciate that sentiment. I am a deeply compassionate and loving human. My late teens and early 20s was an unrelenting bombardment of feeling the pain of the world. It's hard to explain that feeling unless it has been mutual.
I also learned the hard way that decption, greed and outright sadism are fairly common. To develop means to gaurd my excessively sensitive self from society took effort.
In this kind of discussion, I refuse to mince words or try to make it sound poetic. What I describe is a brutally honest rendition of my own perspective on reality.
There are no hidden messages or clever word plays. What I say is what I mean. What I do not say has no implication at all.
If we are talking about pizza, my opinions have nothing to do with roast chicken.
The man wants you to argue and turn against each other. They create turmoil and confusion so you don't organize and don't know what is going on.
If you would like to know how they control people, just look at history, look at what they have done in the past and nothing has really changed. It's Machiavellianism.
If you are in a place of power, you must know the game. You have to learn this otherwise you will be manipulated. Even a good king must protect his kingdom by playing the game. Even a good king must control his subjects otherwise they may rise up in revolution. Kings and politicians are the same thing in a different package. They manipulate in so many ways enable to exert their power. They even do it in the name of freedom. You can't really blame them, the good king has to play the same game as the bad king. This feels like it's on wobbly legs.
If you don't want to be controlled, organize. Come together on common goals. Then you have to watch that you do not become the very thing you once sought to escape from. Animal Farm by George Orwell comes to mind.
I posted a quote about love and compassion as the way out of the control. I stick with that. It is a sign post that should be read, a direction towards unity. We can strive for higher ideals and to escape from control systems, it just takes a few dedicated good people to push for a new way. Those people must know the game enable to play.
Unfortunately, history repeats itself over and over. We are stuck in some loop.
Now that I am talking about it this way, it truly is Samsara. We are trapped by our own manipulations and imaginings and illusions.
This is one heavy topic, feels heavy. How do you lighten the load of it? My love and compassion view seems like a pipe dream. Rose colored glasses. I wish it did not feel that way. Often feels hopeless that we will ever find a way out of the vicious cycle.
If you would like to know how they control people, just look at history, look at what they have done in the past and nothing has really changed. It's Machiavellianism.
If you are in a place of power, you must know the game. You have to learn this otherwise you will be manipulated. Even a good king must protect his kingdom by playing the game. Even a good king must control his subjects otherwise they may rise up in revolution. Kings and politicians are the same thing in a different package. They manipulate in so many ways enable to exert their power. They even do it in the name of freedom. You can't really blame them, the good king has to play the same game as the bad king. This feels like it's on wobbly legs.
If you don't want to be controlled, organize. Come together on common goals. Then you have to watch that you do not become the very thing you once sought to escape from. Animal Farm by George Orwell comes to mind.
I posted a quote about love and compassion as the way out of the control. I stick with that. It is a sign post that should be read, a direction towards unity. We can strive for higher ideals and to escape from control systems, it just takes a few dedicated good people to push for a new way. Those people must know the game enable to play.
Unfortunately, history repeats itself over and over. We are stuck in some loop.
Now that I am talking about it this way, it truly is Samsara. We are trapped by our own manipulations and imaginings and illusions.
This is one heavy topic, feels heavy. How do you lighten the load of it? My love and compassion view seems like a pipe dream. Rose colored glasses. I wish it did not feel that way. Often feels hopeless that we will ever find a way out of the vicious cycle.
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I appreciate you for who you are and for your honesty. We don't necessarily need to get everyone. Personal views very much depend on our lives.
It's better to disagree in a civilized fashion and learn from each other. Human interaction goes beyond simple intellectual understanding anyway.
Your sober, alert approach to the world without getting into pure negativity is actually refreshing. It felt like healthful advice from an uncle who saw some shit.
rkba
Titanium Teammate
We think we are, but we're not. We're not even chained down. We just have to leave the "Allegory of the Cave" and create new imaginings and illusions.
Terrence McKenna would say; "Build your own damn cave". He's not wrong.
Okay, but please explain what you mean if you see that someone else seems to be misunderstanding it. Something like "I think you're misunderstanding what I said: sounds like you believe I meant X but I actually mean Y" would have gone a long way in this case. That won't make it less honest, only more clear.
I keep thinking of the movie V for Vendetta. I think I will watch it tonight.
“Artists use lies to tell the truth. Yes, I created a lie. But because you believed it, you found something true about yourself.” – V
“Since mankind’s dawn, a handful of oppressors have accepted the responsibility over our lives that we should have accepted for ourselves. By doing so, they took our power. By doing nothing, we gave it away.” -V
“Love your rage, not your cage.” - V
There are so many gem quotes in that movie, you all must know by now I am a quote fiend. My apologies I cannot help myself.
“Artists use lies to tell the truth. Yes, I created a lie. But because you believed it, you found something true about yourself.” – V
“Since mankind’s dawn, a handful of oppressors have accepted the responsibility over our lives that we should have accepted for ourselves. By doing so, they took our power. By doing nothing, we gave it away.” -V
“Love your rage, not your cage.” - V
There are so many gem quotes in that movie, you all must know by now I am a quote fiend. My apologies I cannot help myself.
We could say that every act is pure altruism since in nature every behavior is not directed to survival but to giving birth to new life, which is a pretty altruistic thing.
Anyway i kind of understand fink when i stay a long time in a big city, or after i had been in a dangerous situation involving other people. But there are many examples of people helping each other. And i mean if there was no law i think that 99% of the people i know wouldn't kill other people. And even in places with no comfort and life hardships.
I think that the "domesticated" life you talk about, besides growing up in a violent environment, brings out the worst in people. When people are in their natural balanced state they don't act violently even if they don't live in comfort and you can see it in poor rural communities for example.
Empathy is also biological, we have mirror neurons and other neural mechanisms behind it. Often when people act against others they have to intentionally shut off empathy to avoid feeling bad and it has nothing to do with laws. For the same reason people who grow up in violent settings sometimes appear to lack empathy because they learnt to shut it off from a young age to avoid suffering
Anyway i kind of understand fink when i stay a long time in a big city, or after i had been in a dangerous situation involving other people. But there are many examples of people helping each other. And i mean if there was no law i think that 99% of the people i know wouldn't kill other people. And even in places with no comfort and life hardships.
I think that the "domesticated" life you talk about, besides growing up in a violent environment, brings out the worst in people. When people are in their natural balanced state they don't act violently even if they don't live in comfort and you can see it in poor rural communities for example.
Empathy is also biological, we have mirror neurons and other neural mechanisms behind it. Often when people act against others they have to intentionally shut off empathy to avoid feeling bad and it has nothing to do with laws. For the same reason people who grow up in violent settings sometimes appear to lack empathy because they learnt to shut it off from a young age to avoid suffering
Noted, thank you for the advice. I'll study any advice I'm given with gratitude.
I think the most powerful people behave the way they do because they are permanently terrified of other humans.
There is plenty of room for good behaviour alongside an ability, or even a simple willingness, to unleash brutal violence on your environment when survival is at stake.
We are top of the food chain because of our intelligence, our ability to organise and co-operate and quite certainly because of our ability to unleash cold hearted violence to defend our desire for peace.
Imagine trying to work on your spiritual development whilst being hunted by an apex predator that is going to eat you from the bowels upwards.
Our ability to destroy any and all threats allows us to choose peace. How lucky that the previous generations did all the hard work for us.
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Hey, same on my side. It's clear I failed to communicate what I wanted to communicate too. So if you could tell me how I could do it better, it would be good for me. You can PM me if you prefer.
"What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet."
from Romeo and Juliet
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One afternoon a devoted monk walked along a bubbling brook deep in the forest. He gathered water there every day. When he knelt to dip his bucket in the water, he heard the bushes rustle behind him. He turned and saw a huge tiger staring at him and licking his hungry lips.
The monk jumped up, dropped his bucket and fled. The tiger leapt after him. The monk ran deeper into the forest than he had ever gone before. He kept running. The tiger kept chasing.
The thick foliage ended at a steep cliff. The monk stopped short and looked over the edge. He saw sharp rocks hundreds of feet below. If he jumped, he would die.
The tiger began to pounce. The monk thought dying on the rocks below was better than being eaten alive. He jumped. He grabbed desperately at vines and roots on the cliff wall to slow his fall. He caught hold of a thick vine, gripped hard and stopped his fall. He looked up at the growling tiger above. He looked down at the rocks below.
At that moment, the monk saw a plump red strawberry hanging on the vine. He forgot the tiger and the rocks. He plucked the strawberry and popped it into his mouth. He bit down slowly and savored the delicious sweetness.
“This is the most delicious strawberry I have ever eaten,” the monk thought
P.S. I am audi5000.
Not to appear contrarian, but I just wanted to express some contrasting views that I actually hold.
Lions and tigers were actually native to the land that I live and were driven to extinction centuries and decades ago, respectively. I don't feel thankful for that, I feel deeply sad.
I believe in Paul Shepard's hypothesis from his book "Coming home to the Pleistocene" that each animal in existence serves to symbolize and awaken certain archetypal energies in our subconscious, and that living in a world where less and less species exist or are encountered, impoverishes and stunts our psychospiritual development.
Lions are not the biggest problem of tribes living in their vicinities in Africa.
And about living closer to death than we are today: in my opinion it would actually support spiritual development rather than be a hindrance. Spiritual advancement is not found in comfort and predictability. And death is in fact the greatest teacher.
What I've been getting from @fink's posts honestly feels like dystopian Hollywood movies. Despite all the lurking dangers around, life in nature is grounded and anxiety is not the main feeling at all, unlike the urban/Hollywood vibes.
Just being honest, fink. Thanks for your honesty also
I like what you say there dithy. Every opinion can fractally spread out and grow.
Perhaps you are right. Prolonged moments of comfort and predictable events have always ended in depression for me.
This dystopian landscape I paint is Hollywood in a way. I'm describing the majority of humanity who apparently love hollywood. Worship celebrities. Desire to be there themselves.
Does anyone here want to claim that they would sit back and accept an attack on their child, or their dog even?
Would anyone choose peace over defending themself even if it meant death?
If anyone has that level of acceptance to life's events, I would love to hear about it.
Perhaps you are right. Prolonged moments of comfort and predictable events have always ended in depression for me.
This dystopian landscape I paint is Hollywood in a way. I'm describing the majority of humanity who apparently love hollywood. Worship celebrities. Desire to be there themselves.
Does anyone here want to claim that they would sit back and accept an attack on their child, or their dog even?
Would anyone choose peace over defending themself even if it meant death?
If anyone has that level of acceptance to life's events, I would love to hear about it.
There is a reason we say "mother nature." Despite all the dangers and death, being immersed in nature is practically the original anxiolytic and antidepressant. All over the world, many psychologists and branches of psychology recognize this and recommend regular immersion in nature and see it as a basic need for mental health. Ecopsychology was decently well known in recent decades. Bill Plotkin and Chellis Glendinning are among the author's I have read, the former boasting a very deep and transformative framework for psychospiritual development.
And cities are like the antithesis. Being held in the web of life vs a dog eat dog separation based universe. Some could argue with me claiming that it is nature that is the wild and dangerous place. Well, for a person in the separation/disconnection energy, cities are indeed safer, provided they have enough money. The energetic state of connection is where all the healing and empowerment is, according to my worldview. Nature supports it, nature requires it.
And cities are like the antithesis. Being held in the web of life vs a dog eat dog separation based universe. Some could argue with me claiming that it is nature that is the wild and dangerous place. Well, for a person in the separation/disconnection energy, cities are indeed safer, provided they have enough money. The energetic state of connection is where all the healing and empowerment is, according to my worldview. Nature supports it, nature requires it.
I prefer to do my ruehuasca sessions in the wild forest whenever possible (only very cold and rainy weather prevents it because I live in a rural area). There are a lot of wild boars around, and those guys can be pretty deadly. I don't care. I've been drinking a lot in the last weeks and they have been approaching me a lot. I am not scared. I am fine :-)
I had a similar experience with a wild sow and her piglet in the mountains of Granada. I had walked 40km and simply could not escape if she wanted to go for me. But she was kind and I wasn't scared.
A pack of hungry hyenas might have been different.
Never the less, I have a lot of work to still do in this life. I'm not going down without a fight.
A pack of hungry hyenas might have been different.
Never the less, I have a lot of work to still do in this life. I'm not going down without a fight.
Neither am I
For me, the fight is in every moment. The fight for love, truth, health, well being. I am a warrior :-)
For me, the fight is in every moment. The fight for love, truth, health, well being. I am a warrior :-)
In Spain they tend to be very tame. As long as you don't pursue the piglet or something like that, they won't attack. The only people that (very rarely) get killed by wild boars here are hunters. Well, and drivers that run them over, that's actually relatively common.
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