Gay Marriage

[Entropymancer]

Ohayoco, that was an excellent dissection of the fallacious idea that being gay is a choice.



On another note, I'm disturbed that HappyCamper got a mere week suspension for his behavior.

What if someone came on posting that African-descended people are inherently immoral and shouldn't be allowed to adopt because they'd be likely to rape their own children. And suppose someone of African descent responded in a rational fashion, only to be told that they are being especially nigger-ish today? Would that sort of hate-speech likewise recieve only a week suspension? (If not, how is this any different from HappyCamper's behavior in this thread?)

If I bite into an apple and find that it's rotted to the core, I throw it away.

 

[Dwhitty76]

hey boys (just assuming).I Just noticed how silly this thread is getting but i did want to say that as may deprived children that live in substandard conditions in this world, for them to be adopted by two gay men or women for that matter would be a rightious act. It fills the needs of both parties (the couple that cant bear children and the children that need a home).
Peace and Love.....so long as you agree with me. :lol:

 

[Aegle]

[quote='Coatl]

Coatl
The only thing I'm saying is your not born gay.

Of course people can born gay, do you think that we can choose our preference of course not. It has a lot to do with genetics and up bringing.

Please Read

Genetics


Much Peace

 

[polytrip]

How could you ask of any person who believes in the value of human lives, to respect it if you don't respect other humans?
Happycamper says: "if you want to respect everybody, then you'l have to respect it if i don't accept other human beings".

Everything about that is wrong. If we fall for this, then we'l end up having to respect all kinds of ethnic cleansing, having to respect it if al-quaida want's to blow up our cities, having to respect the criminals that want to rape and murder us, having to respect it that hate would destroy everything in our world.

Hatefullness is an inferior quality that occupies the soulless peaces of flesh wandering around in their destructive collisioncourse with eventually everything in this world. It is for the simple people, and if they'l ever meet any respect for their simpleness it's only because thei're not held responsible for their own thoughts or actions and to spare them for criticism wich they won't be able to fully comprehend anyway, due to their total lack of powers of reflexion or introspection. A lacking wich in all cases, they consider to be a strength and virtue.

 

[ohayoco]

Peace and Love.....so long as you agree with me. :lol:

Hahaha, I get it. I don't mind if people do disagree, once they've been shown the scientific opinion, because at least then it's an informed decision.

Aegle, that's a perfect introductory article. Note that the 'environmental factors' they talk about occur predominantly in the womb.

 

[Aegle]

Aegle, that's a perfect introductory article. Note that the 'environmental factors' they talk about occur predominantly in the womb.

I know thank you Ohayoco, I personally feel that a childs up bringing has a lot to do with it to not only genetics and enviromental factors in the womb. Some mothers give birth to boys when they want girls and they tend to push certain behaviours on their child. So i think it is a combination of causes.

I posted that specific article to show people who believe being gay is only a personal choice that it clearly is not


Much Peace

 

['Coatl]

Coatl, you believe that people are not born gay.
If you are right, being gay is a choice.
You believe that being gay is a choice.
People who can choose between straight or gay behaviour are 'bisexual'.
Therefore, if you are right that being gay is a choice then...
EVERYONE would be born bisexual.
But they would choose whether to act gay or straight.

EXACTLY!

The only reason I am straight (probably) is because I was brought up believe I was supposed to be straight.

I still don't believe you are born gay (and I'm sure there are plenty of scientist who would agree with me)

 

[Entropymancer]

[quote='Coatl]I still don't believe you are born gay (and I'm sure there are plenty of scientist who would agree with me)[/quote]

I'm pretty sure you're dead wrong about that. The only scientists you're apt to find holding that opinion are fundies who let their religion cloud their impartiality.

 

[rellik]

Here’s a test to see if you are bisexual, straight, or gay.

Look at a nude picture of the opposite sex that is meant to be sexually stimulating to the opposite sex. If it turns you on, you’re either straight or bisexual. If it makes you feel very uncomfortable, you’re gay. If you’re not made uncomfortable by looking at it, but not turned on, then you’re probably bisexual and don’t know it.

Now look at a nude picture of the name sex as you are that is meant to be sexually stimulating for the opposite sex. If it turns you on you’re either gay or bisexual. If you feel very uncomfortable looking at it, you’re straight. If you’re not made uncomfortable by looking at it, but not turned on, then you’re probably bisexual and don’t know it.

iunno how well this test works. mapplethorpe's works never have made me feel nauseated when looking at same sex images. Up til this point in my life my sexual and emotional attraction has always been towards the opposite sex. Who knows, maybe im bisexual but i highly doubt it. Ill always keep an open mind because maybe some day there will be some dude that i may be attracted to. Setting hard lines in stone is never something good, keeping an open mind is always important.

whatever it is, sexuality is not a choice and legislation restricting that is in my mind worse than the drug laws where we have a "choice" to partake in tasty entheogens or not. though, entheogens are very good at helping people figure out themselves and their own unique sexuality.

the real importance is that one should have sexuality in whatever form it manifests itself in, anhedonia should be avoided like the worst of plagues. never let oneself get stuck into that rut..

 

[SWIMfriend]

[quote='Coatl]...I still don't believe you are born gay (and I'm sure there are plenty of scientist who would agree with me)...[/quote]

I'm a scientist, and I don't agree. I've listed a few simple observations that suggest an "inborn" (which generally means "genetic") cause for homosexual behavior; you've not responded to them.

It seems you simply don't want to confront the case for an inborn tendency toward homosexuality. Many are like you in that regard, and that puzzles me: Why do people have an (apparently) emotional need to assign some causes and not others to homosexual behavior? I never really got that one...

 

[The Traveler]

On another note, I'm disturbed that HappyCamper got a mere week suspension for his behavior.

What if someone came on posting that African-descended people are inherently immoral and shouldn't be allowed to adopt because they'd be likely to rape their own children. And suppose someone of African descent responded in a rational fashion, only to be told that they are being especially nigger-ish today? Would that sort of hate-speech likewise recieve only a week suspension? (If not, how is this any different from HappyCamper's behavior in this thread?)

If I bite into an apple and find that it's rotted to the core, I throw it away.

Only a week must sound short but I always think someone deserves a chance to change. I also like the idea that only few are rotten to the core, sometimes it's just the outer layer that's dirty and once cleaned it can show real taste.

After a week, if HappyCamper returns we will see if he has learned something. If he did and makes a good apology to all and starts behaving in a acceptable manner then he can stay. If not then I can always take the appropriate measures.

Once, a wise person told me that everybody should have the opportunity to make a mistake and show that they have learned something out of it. By showing what has been learned from mistakes other people can forgive and put things to rest, something that's better for all. Although HappyCampers mistake was a big one, I still like to give him the opportunity to show what he has learned from it.

 

[deedle-doo]

[quote='Coatl]

I still don't believe you are born gay (and I'm sure there are plenty of scientist who would agree with me)
[/quote]

You gotta be careful 'Coatl or you could become misinformed and this might tarnish the richness of your ride. It seems closed-minded to make up your mind about something and then seek out only opinions from authorities you agree with.

Scientists are human beings carrying biases just like anyone else. Sometimes we are aware of these biases and sometimes we are not. Science depends critically on peer review and constant external criticism and revision. This is the only way to begin to overcome human bias.

The clear consensus from research into homosexuality is that there is a strong genetic component. Research in this field has moved beyond this debate to understand the genetic mechanisms involved. There are even mutant fruit flies who are clearly born gay so genetic mechanisms of homosexuality may be hundreds of million years old.
Perhaps it is a (perfectly natural and productive) response to population density as has been speculated above.

 

['Coatl]

Why is there such a need for y'all to convince me that homosexuality is inborn? Does it make it more "right"?

I am not arguing the morality of homosexuality here, I have never made a statement concerning the moral correctness either way concerning homosexuality, but many of you seem to think I am anti-homosexual because I do not believe it is inborn.... why is that?

If you want to know my true feelings on homosexuality, I can voice them (and I will do so in the most appropriate manner possible, but you must accept my OPINIONS for what they are).

 

[deedle-doo]

[quote='Coatl]Why is there such a need for y'all to convince me that homosexuality is inborn? Does it make it more "right"?

[/quote]

Because it is true.

Many people have high esteem for truth and will try to offer it up when they detect falseness. A lot of things we talk about here at the nexus cannot be known to be true or false. The biology of homosexuality is different because we have research tools to address it in ways that transcend human bias.

 

[Infundibulum]

[quote='Coatl]Why is there such a need for y'all to convince me that homosexuality is inborn? Does it make it more "right"?

I am not arguing the morality of homosexuality here, I have never made a statement concerning the moral correctness either way concerning homosexuality, but many of you seem to think I am anti-homosexual because I do not believe it is inborn.... why is that?

If you want to know my true feelings on homosexuality, I can voice them (and I will do so in the most appropriate manner possible, but you must accept my OPINIONS for what they are).
[/quote]
I would like to think that this site works very well with rational discourse where members like to argue about their opinions, presenting arguments and counter-arguments. This is what discourse is supposed to be.

"Beliefs" on the other hand are not subjects of a discussion. If you would like to throw an opinion, then argue well enough to back it up - or just not call it an opinion.

As for the issue of discussion, why exactly do you think that it is not inborn? Sexual orientation and appetites are to a great extent outcomes of body biochemistry (hormones in this case). As a reproductive biologist by profession I can bring you quite a few examples of clinical cases of syndromes that change hormonal levels to either men or women that in turn results in homosexuality.

And let us not forget that many higher animals can have homosexual behaviour.

 

['Coatl]

I do not disagree that homosexuality MAY have something to do with genetics, but I strongly disagree that is has EVERYTHING to do with genetics.

 

[Infundibulum]

[quote='Coatl]I do not disagree that homosexuality MAY have something to do with genetics, but I strongly disagree that is has EVERYTHING to do with genetics.
[/quote]
Who said that it has to do everything with genetics? And as a matter of fact it does have to do with genetics (as opposed to the "may" you used) to an extent. As to what extent we cannot really know. But you cannot deny the fact that someone can be born programmed to be homosexual.

 

['Coatl]

Who said that it has to do everything with genetics?

69ron.

But you cannot deny the fact that someone can be born programmed to be homosexual.

Sure I can. I do NOT think people are "programmed from birth" to be homosexual.

 

[SWIMfriend]

[quote='Coatl]Why is there such a need for y'all to convince me that homosexuality is inborn? Does it make it more "right"?

I am not arguing the morality of homosexuality here, I have never made a statement concerning the moral correctness either way concerning homosexuality, but many of you seem to think I am anti-homosexual because I do not believe it is inborn.... why is that?

If you want to know my true feelings on homosexuality, I can voice them (and I will do so in the most appropriate manner possible, but you must accept my OPINIONS for what they are).


[/quote]

The MORALITY of homosexual behavior is an area ripe for opinion making.

The CAUSE of homosexual behavior is more an area for objective argument, facts, data, and analysis. "Opinions" about the causes aren't very relevant or meaningful.

 

[bacchus]

long time lurker, first time poster. don't mean to be rude or anything, but isn't this coatl girl like 18 or something? why are all of you chemists and biologists and legitimate science people engaging her in debate and expecting anything logical or intelligent from her end? just kind of seems like you're encouraging her. i see her post like 30 times everyday and say a whole lot of nothing.