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I dislike the "DMT is responsible for your dreams" theory
- Thread starter obliguhl
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..i thought it was a deep, cryptic neuro-pharmalogical hint...
I find that both dreams as well as the state in between sleeping and being awake, can be simmilar in some ways to DMT.
Maybe there could be other explanations for this, that do not include endogenous tryptamines.
For instance, what if the state between being awake and asleep is characterised by a certain type of brainwave activity. Let´s say that both the intensity and the profile of brainwave frequency´s are typical for that state....We could say then that in terms of it´s electric activity this is a natural state for the brain to be into.
Maybe a substance like DMT works partly by blocking acces to other of these states, making it impossible for the brain to function in it´s normal day-time state as well as it´s normal sleep-mode.
The brain could respond to that maybe, by looking for 'familiar ground' and finding a natural mode that is still accesable.
Maybe you could even compare it to the orbit of electrons in a way: there are only a few states available for an atom to be in. An atom can be put in an excitated mode by adding energy to it. When this energy leaves the atom again, it falls back into it´s groundstate. There are only a few 'orbit-paths' available, corresponding with these energy states.
If the brain has a few of these natural states to be in, maybe you could push it back to 'lower or higher energy/activity states' simply by 'adding energy' through the stimulation of a few receptors, or blocking the availability of energy.
Maybe there could be other explanations for this, that do not include endogenous tryptamines.
For instance, what if the state between being awake and asleep is characterised by a certain type of brainwave activity. Let´s say that both the intensity and the profile of brainwave frequency´s are typical for that state....We could say then that in terms of it´s electric activity this is a natural state for the brain to be into.
Maybe a substance like DMT works partly by blocking acces to other of these states, making it impossible for the brain to function in it´s normal day-time state as well as it´s normal sleep-mode.
The brain could respond to that maybe, by looking for 'familiar ground' and finding a natural mode that is still accesable.
Maybe you could even compare it to the orbit of electrons in a way: there are only a few states available for an atom to be in. An atom can be put in an excitated mode by adding energy to it. When this energy leaves the atom again, it falls back into it´s groundstate. There are only a few 'orbit-paths' available, corresponding with these energy states.
If the brain has a few of these natural states to be in, maybe you could push it back to 'lower or higher energy/activity states' simply by 'adding energy' through the stimulation of a few receptors, or blocking the availability of energy.
bingonen888 said:
ACh is a primary neurotransmitter involved in REM sleep, it's well documented.
DMT? not likely. it's a mysterious novel compound of waking consciousness, perhaps a theta-wave
ligand. I don't know about you guys, but I've never had fractal dreams; my dreams were mostly
indexed memories, a clear indicator that ACh is at work. I can recall past drug experiences, in a seemingly different setting. the sensation of flying is an odd phenomena, one which I have no explanation for
Dreamwalker
Rising Star
Okay, makes a lot of sense. So what is it about DMT that seems to increase the intensity of so many peoples dreams for some time afterward? Placebo effect or does DMT somehow affect the ACh neurotransmitter?
that would be my guess.
DMT binds an array of ligand-gated ion channels (5HT subtypes, Sigma-1, etc), G-coupled receptors...so it exerts a cascading signal effect, which influences signaling at other receptors downstream, Glu and ACh included
DMT binds an array of ligand-gated ion channels (5HT subtypes, Sigma-1, etc), G-coupled receptors...so it exerts a cascading signal effect, which influences signaling at other receptors downstream, Glu and ACh included
I had had lots of fractal dreams..tons of them that are just like DMT..though they are not the norm at all. Most of my dreams are more like harmala dreams than even close to DMT..
I´ve had a few of these moments where i was in between the wake and asleep state, that where a bit like an ibogaine experience.fractal enchantment said:
Bancopuma told me that while on ibogaine, the brain shows the same brainwave pattern as when in REM-state.
I also remember having read that LSD causes a shift from left to right brain activity (i think fractal enchantment said this somewhere in a hyperspace-tavern thread).
In the end neurotransmitters are only chemicals. It´s what they do to the brain, the activity they trigger, that is the real psychedelic effect. There are a lot of other potential ways (like direct electric stimulation or via tools like the 'god-helmet') that could induce the same electric activity.
I think this sub-sleep state is just a natural psychedelic state of the brain. Normally counsciousness sort of slips-away in this state.
But people who meditate often can also get their brain to produce more theta-waves as when in sleep-mode, while still fully awake.
Maybe, DMT entrains the brain to be able to do this, just like intense meditation.
blue_velvet
Rising Star
Anyone have thoughts on NREM?
Dream2Awaken
Rising Star
"because i think that it is unfounded speculation, driven by people who believe in the illusion, that dreaming could be anything like the dmt experience."
Isn't this just speculation as well? Dreaming can be very much like a DMT experience.
Tons of things happen when you're asleep. Most the human mind never remembers.
I have lucid dreams every night, and now having done DMT. I have begun to see the similarities in dreaming, and "dreaming"
I don't think we can fully compare the two though. When you're dreaming your mind and body are at rest. When you do a DMT session you are still awake and bringing all the factors of being awake into the equation.
The way I like to think of it is that when we sleep. Our conscious mind is sleeping as well, and our subconscious takes over, but when you smoke DMT. It brings the subconscious out and now you're using them both.
This of course is just my personal opinion on the matter. I don't know that DMT is what causes your dreams, but I do believe it.
Isn't this just speculation as well? Dreaming can be very much like a DMT experience.
Tons of things happen when you're asleep. Most the human mind never remembers.
I have lucid dreams every night, and now having done DMT. I have begun to see the similarities in dreaming, and "dreaming"
I don't think we can fully compare the two though. When you're dreaming your mind and body are at rest. When you do a DMT session you are still awake and bringing all the factors of being awake into the equation.
The way I like to think of it is that when we sleep. Our conscious mind is sleeping as well, and our subconscious takes over, but when you smoke DMT. It brings the subconscious out and now you're using them both.
This of course is just my personal opinion on the matter. I don't know that DMT is what causes your dreams, but I do believe it.
AluminumFoilRobots
gufyg
I have very vivid and colorful CEV's (if you can call them that) at most all points. It ratchets up and down in terms of intensity/togetherness, but it never goes away. As a child, I stumbled upon the ability to cause and orange frame around my closed-eye colors(?) by saying the word "orange" in my head and feeling a certain feeling, and later by feeling the feeling... I've come to call that feeling "orange". This makes me think that perhaps I am a synesthete, because I have no other explaination for this phenomenon that has occurred since my childhood.
Also, since my first taking of Ayahuasca, I have had in the center of my closed-eye visual frame, a distinct (sometimes more indistinct) wavy area that could be likened to a pool of water...
Also, since my first taking of Ayahuasca, I have had in the center of my closed-eye visual frame, a distinct (sometimes more indistinct) wavy area that could be likened to a pool of water...
While one may have dreams somehow affected after having taken psychedelics/dmt, this is not an evidence that dreams are caused by DMT. Neither is having fractal dreams once in a while, anymore than having dreams of being horny mean sex causes your dreams. Any mental content and experience that one has in waking life, specially very strong ones, will naturally become a part of one's dream world at some point or other.
DMT very consistently will bring a very peculiar kind of effects. The fact that this isnt easily reproducible in every dream of every person just like it is in every (or overal majority) of (real) dmt experiences of every person that consumes it, indicates pretty strongly it isnt simply created by dmt, or at all.
Then benz has mentioned already that its been documented that serotonin activity is actually off/reduced during REM, and acetylcholine being the most significant neurotransmitter involved.
Now, of course dreams and different natural states of consciousness are very complex and its hard to pinpoint one or another factor as the sole responsible. There is no absolute evidence that DMT isnt in any shape or fashion involved in dream, but all the evidence so far seems to show that there are other factors that are more important at work. At least one thing is pretty clear I think: DMT isnt the only or single main responsible for our dreams, so the "DMT is responsible for your dreams" theory is indeed a myth or at the very least a huge simplification and misunderstanding of neurochemistry.
DMT very consistently will bring a very peculiar kind of effects. The fact that this isnt easily reproducible in every dream of every person just like it is in every (or overal majority) of (real) dmt experiences of every person that consumes it, indicates pretty strongly it isnt simply created by dmt, or at all.
Then benz has mentioned already that its been documented that serotonin activity is actually off/reduced during REM, and acetylcholine being the most significant neurotransmitter involved.
Now, of course dreams and different natural states of consciousness are very complex and its hard to pinpoint one or another factor as the sole responsible. There is no absolute evidence that DMT isnt in any shape or fashion involved in dream, but all the evidence so far seems to show that there are other factors that are more important at work. At least one thing is pretty clear I think: DMT isnt the only or single main responsible for our dreams, so the "DMT is responsible for your dreams" theory is indeed a myth or at the very least a huge simplification and misunderstanding of neurochemistry.
I don't think sheer endogenous DMT releases are responsible for dreams. DMT is way too energetic, too vibrant, too adrenalinergic. It would awaken you.
The nature of DMT visions seems very different alltogether from the general nature of my nocturnal Dreams. Dreams are visions of the familiar, of the "human world" 99% of the times, while DMT visions allways seem of a very inhuman nature. Beyond human.
Allthough I've pondered the possibility that similair endogenous compounds may be responsible for Dreams. Appearantly the human body also knows how to make 5-MeO-DMT and 5-HO-DMT.
I remember reading this in a scientific journal on endogenous tryptamines once, on Erowid.org I believe. If I remember correctly it was called "An Anxiolitic Role for Endogenous NN,DMT"
It could very well be possible that an endogenous release of several Psychoactive compounds initiate our nocturnal dream-sequences.
A significant dose of NN might be too energetic and adrenalinergic to allow sleep, but small doses of NN, 5-MeO-DMT, 5HO-DMT, possibly sustained in effect
by an endogenous MAO-Inhibitor, together with an endogenous Hypnotic compound that induces sleep, drowsyness, amnesia & delirium, this mix could possibly
subdue the exciting effects of DMT and/or DMT-like compounds, while prolonging the visionairy effects.
I suppose it would be interresting to learn more about the brainchemistry involved with dreaming and sleep.
What is known about human brain chemistry during dreaming sleep? How did scientists find out that Melatonin,
NN,DMT, 5-HO-DMT and 5-MeO-DMT were present in the human brain in the first place? Chemically analysing disected
human brain-tissue from someone who donated their brains to scientific research?
What is known from such chemical analysises?
The nature of DMT visions seems very different alltogether from the general nature of my nocturnal Dreams. Dreams are visions of the familiar, of the "human world" 99% of the times, while DMT visions allways seem of a very inhuman nature. Beyond human.
Allthough I've pondered the possibility that similair endogenous compounds may be responsible for Dreams. Appearantly the human body also knows how to make 5-MeO-DMT and 5-HO-DMT.
I remember reading this in a scientific journal on endogenous tryptamines once, on Erowid.org I believe. If I remember correctly it was called "An Anxiolitic Role for Endogenous NN,DMT"
It could very well be possible that an endogenous release of several Psychoactive compounds initiate our nocturnal dream-sequences.
A significant dose of NN might be too energetic and adrenalinergic to allow sleep, but small doses of NN, 5-MeO-DMT, 5HO-DMT, possibly sustained in effect
by an endogenous MAO-Inhibitor, together with an endogenous Hypnotic compound that induces sleep, drowsyness, amnesia & delirium, this mix could possibly
subdue the exciting effects of DMT and/or DMT-like compounds, while prolonging the visionairy effects.
I suppose it would be interresting to learn more about the brainchemistry involved with dreaming and sleep.
What is known about human brain chemistry during dreaming sleep? How did scientists find out that Melatonin,
NN,DMT, 5-HO-DMT and 5-MeO-DMT were present in the human brain in the first place? Chemically analysing disected
human brain-tissue from someone who donated their brains to scientific research?
What is known from such chemical analysises?
