I think I just gave myself serotonin syndrome

[RhythmSpring]

I licked some ACRB brew the other day, and being reeeeally sensitive, I could tell that the moment it touched my tongue that it was a BAD idea.

I started becoming reeeeally anxious for no apparent reason.

I got a cough. I NEVER get coughs.

My whole body ached like it was on fire.

And yet, it was chilled to the core--I could not keep warm no matter how warm my external environment got.

Going to sleep, I felt like I was on the brink of death.

Today, (this was 2 days ago) I am still chilled. My temperature regulation is obviously wonky.

Diarrhea every time I eat food.

I drank a teeny bit of ayahuasca vine to balance out the ACRB, and it turned my body pain into kind of a warm tingly feeling, kind of pleasant, but now it's gone and I'm back to chills. Maybe I should sip a little bit more of the vine?

Or should I just wait it out and get warm?

My situation is extremely complex (inflammatory arthritis, extreme substance sensitivities, etc.)

FWIW

Thanks.

 

[jamie]

sounds like a flair up and not serotonin syndrom..do you react to gums in acacias? I do.

I wont eat anything but extracted crytals now.

did you see if steroids will end it? I hate prednisone etc..but also very glad it exists.

Feel better.

 

[Spiralout]

Yeah I'm not sure why you think you got serotonin syndrome; did you take anything else?

 

[RhythmSpring]

Because my system is wicked sensitive and very unusual.

I microdosed Iboga rootbark for four months this past Winter/Spring (with two separate days of a break) .

I dosed Ayahuasca vine (Muricata) for about a month on end, two solid doses per day.

I was already sensitive because I've done Salvia like 200 times, and my tolerance to that has been close to nil (reverse tolerance with Salvia) .

You bet I feel fucked up.

Top that off with severe inflammatory arthritis.

And taking hella herbs for it (artemisia annua being one of them) . Been taking a lot of Black Walnut hull, too, which has been helping, but I did stop before I took my recent microdose of ayahuasca (I think) .

I am a complex mess.

 

[dreamer042]

While the temperature regulation thing is reminiscent of serotonin syndrome, there are generally other symptoms involved that you did not mention. The fact you took caapi and found it to help, rather than increase the negative effects, make me think it's unlikely that was the culprit.

taking hella herbs for it

This is where I'd point if I were to hazard a guess as to what caused your issue. These plant medicines are complex, and interactions between them are poorly understood. For all our chemical analysis techniques, we still know very little about the synergistic effects of plant medicines.

Take it easy on the combinations. Explore each medicine well and pursue combinations methodically and with care. Perhaps consider consulting an experienced herbalist or looking into alternative methods of inflammation management (meditation, probiotics, etc)

 

[Sabnock1990]

Yeah it's not Serotonin Syndrome, and the Acacia wouldn't have done anything (especially if you just licked a brew, plus having no MAO-A inhibition to make the Acacia active). I've drank an entire Acacia dose before without MAO-A inhibition, didn't notice anything at all. I'm not questioning your sensitivity to things, but it's definitely not the Acacia and not Serotonin Syndrome lol. I've actually had Serotonin Syndrome from pharmaceuticals back in the day, it's not a pleasant experience, raised body temp, fever/flu-like symptoms, extreme agitation/irritability, couldn't focus or sleep for 2 days, etc.

 

[jamie]

you are wrong that sipping acacia cannot do that. Acacia gum(gum arabic) sensitivites are extremely common with auto immune diseases like RA. Certainly a person could be thrown into episodes like described above and worse.

 

[Sabnock1990]

Acacia gum is not Acacia Confusa....

This is not Serotonin Syndrome, and not from the Acacia.

And it certainly wouldn't last more than a few hours if it were the Acacia.

 

[RhythmSpring]

Acacia gum is not Acacia Confusa....

This is not Serotonin Syndrome, and not from the Acacia.

And it certainly wouldn't last more than a few hours if it were the Acacia.

It is from the acacia because the symptoms started immediately after ingesting it. Just because my symptoms aren't typical doesn't mean that they could not be triggered by something like DMT, which can have very unpredictable effects.

In the past, Ayahuasca would take 3 days to kick in. Like clockwork, at the 72-hour mark. I'm strange. Don't say, "No, you're not!" I know what my experience has been and it's NOT normal.

 

[Hector]

I am not a doctor but your symptoms do not resemble serotonin syndrome in my opinion. And the majority of doctors will not be able to give you an answer.

You said that it takes 72 hours for the ayahuasca to kick in sometimes. That does not sound quite right. I don't think it's possible to metabolize it that far down the line. I can feel the stuff immediately. You mentioned that you micro dosed the acacia and vine. If you consumed a serious dose I think there would be not doubt you were tripping.

You could filter and decant the brew also to remove the gums maybe.

I have pretty bad environmental sensitivities to toxic chemicals that don't seem to bother most people. Not to foods though really. And I am pretty sensitive to harmalas and experienced a bad reaction with chocolate I had ingested days prior. But DMT is not physically toxic.

I agree that you should consider alternative treatments or a specialist for your inflammatory arthritis. Perhaps it was just a coincidence that you experienced a flare up while licking the ACRB. Although ayahuasca is an amazing plant healer and medicine it may not be the right one for your particular condition. There is a reason those curanderos who use it traditionally use it as a diagnostic tool for prescribing other medicinal plants and as a medicine in it's out right. Perhaps some herbal analgesics may be of use to you; kratom, amanita muscaria, or phoenix tears (CBD). I hope you feel better

 

[Sabnock1990]

DMT/Acacia would have absolutely no effect unless you took something to inhibit MAO-A say 10 to 30 minutes to an hour or so beforehand, gut MAO-A by the Harmalas or Moclobemide is very short in duration, and within 2 hours gut MAO-A will be back to normal. And, even if you did take a good dose of Harmalas sometime shortly before licking some Acacia, licking some Acacia tea is by no means going to do anything, especially any noticeable physical or psychological effect.

And yeah it doesn't take Harmalas or DMT 72 hours to kick in, Harmalas are active within 30 minutes (sometimes less) and are fully kicked in by about 2 hours or so, and the DMT is usually active within 15 to 30 minutes if consumed when gut MAO-A is fully inhibited. There are some people who have less CYP2D6 which metabolizes the Harmalas and are thus slow metabolizers of the Harmalas, but even with that i'm fairly certain it wouldn't take 72 hours to kick in.

 

[RhythmSpring]

You said that it takes 72 hours for the ayahuasca to kick in sometimes. That does not sound quite right.

Well, it's true. Believe it or not. It's not like that anymore, but it used to be.

And I am pretty sensitive to harmalas and experienced a bad reaction with chocolate I had ingested days prior.

Yes, chocolate and MAOI can be a bad combination.

But DMT is not physically toxic.

While DMT itself is not physically toxic, if the person taking it is unwell, it may trigger/bring up those imbalances. I would like to believe that one can trust the proesses DMT induces, but I have heard of two accounts (one on the nexus and one in person) of people having a stroke after smoking DMT.

I agree that you should consider alternative treatments or a specialist for your inflammatory arthritis. Perhaps it was just a coincidence that you experienced a flare up while licking the ACRB.

It wasn't a flare up of my arthritis, that's for sure. It was other bad symptoms. And it was not a coincidence, as I felt them right away.

Although ayahuasca is an amazing plant healer and medicine it may not be the right one for your particular condition. There is a reason those curanderos who use it traditionally use it as a diagnostic tool for prescribing other medicinal plants and as a medicine in it's out right. Perhaps some herbal analgesics may be of use to you; kratom, amanita muscaria, or phoenix tears (CBD). I hope you feel better

Now THIS is pure truth. Thank you for the reminder and encouragement.

 

[antares]

Like everyone else said; this is almost certainly not serotonin syndrome. Are you certain that this particular episode is substance induced? Is there a possibility of it being a coincidental viral infection or a flare up of your other illnesses? My suggestion would be to wait and watch.

 

[RhythmSpring]

Is there a possibility of it being a coincidental viral infection or a flare up of your other illnesses? My suggestion would be to wait and watch.

No, because what I experienced

a) happened within seconds of my ingesting it
b) the symptoms were not my typical symptoms

 

[Sabnock1990]

It's obvious this doesn't have anything to do with DMT, DMT would not be orally active unless you had taken a good dose of Harmalas or Moclobemide within an hour and a half before taking the DMT. Gut MAO-A is not inhibited for long (which is one reason why it's pretty much impossible to have dietary interactions), and as such DMT will not be orally active unless it's been consumed within the MAO-A inhibition window. And i highly doubt anything was absorbed sublingually. Have you tried Acacia tea before? How many times? Any negatives from ingesting Acacia whether the DMT was active or not? Do you feel like testing it out and drinking an Acacia tea or doing another sip or so and see if anything flares back up?

Can't make conclusions unless you've tested some things out first. This is not Serotonin Syndrome, and it's not from the DMT (i assure you). There could be something in the Acacia root, perhaps that you're sensitive to, but i doubt it, and there's no way to tell unless you try Acacia a few good times to see if there's any consistency/reproducibility that would then suggest it's more than just a coincidence.

If anything would cause Serotonin Syndrome, it ain't the DMT, it'd be the MAO-A inhibition, but that in itself is usually not enough to induce such a syndrome unless you're just unusually high in Serotonin. Are you on any medications or supplements/plants/oils? Are you taking anything that inhibits CYP2D6 which may explain any potentiation or lengthening of duration of the Harmalas (as you said it used to take 72 hours for things to kick in), just curious. Also keep in mind that certain plants or supplements, while they may not have negative interactions with Harmalas, some can conflict with things the Harmalas or DMT do or can even alter things relatively easily. I've noticed some body aches and such if i drink Coffee earlier on in the day and then take some Rue, though pure Caffeine doesn't seem to cause that. Also Acacia wouldn't cause diarrhea.

Another thing to keep in mind, is if you take Harmalas here and there or regularly, they do have some anti-bacterial and anti-fungal effects, and can possibly alter your gut flora which could possibly contribute to certain bacteria or fungi to overgrow and cause problems. I don't know for a fact if it can do that but i do think i had gotten a bit of Candida when i had been taking Harmalas/Rue regularly, which caused intense body itching here and there which i know is caused by Candida and would even flare up bad if i drank my Acacia teas with some sugar. So that's just something to keep in mind if you have some gastrointestinal issues going on.

I find it highly improbable though that Acacia was in any way responsible for what you've experienced, not saying it's impossible but highly improbable. I know it may seem like more than a coincidence, but you really require further testing/experimentation/observation to know for sure. I know when it comes to one's health one might be cautious about experimenting to see if something is causing something, but it needs to be done so long as it can be done safely, in the name of science and observation, even if it's just for your own sake just to know whats going on vs what you think might be going on.

 

[RhythmSpring]

I'm sorry, I neglected to mention that I took an equally teeny amount of B. muricata earlier that day, and around the time of the ACRB.

I also encourage you to ignore the fact that these were teeny amounts, because I have been literally incredibly sensitive to substances.

 

[Sabnock1990]

I understand that people have sensitivities, and i would't see it as impossible if you had little to no CYP2D6 or little to no MAO-A, or had been taking good doses of Harmalas daily/near daily for weeks or months, but if you do not have a sufficient dosage of Harmalas and do not inhibit MAO-A at least to some extent, DMT would hardly be active. You can't take a teeny microdose of Harmalas and expect much DMT to make it through unscathed as most will be metabolized by uninhibited MAO-A.

Also, as stated, the reversible MAO-A inhibition of Harmalas or Moclobemide is very short, especially for Harmalas in tea form, in capsule form the MAO-A inhibition can last about an hour and a half to two hours in my experience/observation, which can be easily figured out by taking the Harmalas/Caapi/Rue first and sometime later consuming the DMT and if the DMT isn't active or is only partially active then you've passed or near about passed the inhibition window, which is why if you take DMT too early or too late, it won't be active or will only be partially active, as it needs that gut MAO-A inhibition. You can still have MAO-A inhibited in the brain and elsewhere for a bit longer, but in the gut the inhibition is very short which once again also explains why there's not much in the way of dietary reactions (if any at all) and why one wouldn't feel any Tyramine-related issues a day or two later after taking Harmalas (as i've seen a few say they've gotten headaches and blamed it on Tyramine even though their gut MAO-A was no longer inhibited and thus Tyramine should be broken down as usual).

Btw i'm very experienced when it comes to Harmalas (as well as oral DMT), as i've consumed them very regularly since 2012 except in the last couple years as i've been on a break, but i've consumed Harmalas very regularly, even strong dosages daily for 8 months, and while i realize people are different, i know the Harmalas pretty well and unless you have the reverse tolerance built up by taking a good dose daily/near daily for a few weeks, a teeny amount wouldn't do much, and definitely wouldn't be enough to make DMT active just by licking some Acacia brew.

As i said, it's best to test things out first before coming to conclusions. I hope you get it figured out though.

 

[RhythmSpring]

I understand that people have sensitivities, and i would't see it as impossible if you had little to no CYP2D6 or little to no MAO-A, or had been taking good doses of Harmalas daily/near daily for weeks or months, but if you do not have a sufficient dosage of Harmalas and do not inhibit MAO-A at least to some extent, DMT would hardly be active. You can't take a teeny microdose of Harmalas and expect much DMT to make it through unscathed as most will be metabolized by uninhibited MAO-A.

Well, I have dosed harmalas straight (in full amounts) twice daily for weeks. Although that was last Summer, it is my experience with MAO inhibition that the sensitivity it imparts can linger on for a long time. I perceive MAO-inhibition as kind of peeling off an outer layer of the ego. It regrows, but it regrows differently each time.

Also, :!: to "not sufficient dosage" stuff. I know what I have experienced over the years. Like I said, most people are incredulous to the fact that people such as me can be so sensitive to things. On numerous occasions I have drunk ACRB brew, sans any MAOI, and felt something. Sure, it was subtle, but it was physical, behavioral, and certainly perceptual. I'd appreciate it if you listen to my experience and not write it off as "not possible." For example, I know I'm not the only one who has reported effects with just taking chacruna.

Also, as stated, the reversible MAO-A inhibition of Harmalas or Moclobemide is very short, especially for Harmalas in tea form, in capsule form the MAO-A inhibition can last about an hour and a half to two hours in my experience/observation, which can be easily figured out by taking the Harmalas/Caapi/Rue first and sometime later consuming the DMT and if the DMT isn't active or is only partially active then you've passed or near about passed the inhibition window, which is why if you take DMT too early or too late, it won't be active or will only be partially active, as it needs that gut MAO-A inhibition. You can still have MAO-A inhibited in the brain and elsewhere for a bit longer, but in the gut the inhibition is very short which once again also explains why there's not much in the way of dietary reactions (if any at all) and why one wouldn't feel any Tyramine-related issues a day or two later after taking Harmalas (as i've seen a few say they've gotten headaches and blamed it on Tyramine even though their gut MAO-A was no longer inhibited and thus Tyramine should be broken down as usual).

Btw i'm very experienced when it comes to Harmalas (as well as oral DMT), as i've consumed them very regularly since 2012 except in the last couple years as i've been on a break, but i've consumed Harmalas very regularly, even strong dosages daily for 8 months, and while i realize people are different, i know the Harmalas pretty well and unless you have the reverse tolerance built up by taking a good dose daily/near daily for a few weeks, a teeny amount wouldn't do much, and definitely wouldn't be enough to make DMT active just by licking some Acacia brew.

As i said, it's best to test things out first before coming to conclusions. I hope you get it figured out though.

I guess what I want you to understand is that some people's bodies are very out of balance, and that can have a huge impact on the ayahuasca experience. You are speaking of the world of ayahuasca effects, as far as I can tell, in terms of what normally occurs for normal, functional people. I have redonk health imbalances that I'm definitely not going to get into now, but I know that that affects my experience. I hope you'll take that into account.

 

[Sabnock1990]

I'm far from a normal functionable person lol, i have Autism/Aspergers, i have gut issues, constipation, skin issues, some mental stability issues, and i'm sure i have some sensitivities as well. I understand i'm not you and i don't know your body and anything is possible, however as i've said, unless you can test things out and consistently/reliably induce/reproduce something, you can't make a firm conclusion.

I know what you're talking about though with the MAO-A inhibition (or at least the temporary boost in neurotransmitters) lingering around for a bit, that's the brain MAO-A from my understanding, and usually lingers for about a week or so but then starts to fade away ime (though with regular use it could take a few weeks to a few months, perhaps, for your neurotransmitter levels to return to baseline), but the gut's MAO-A inhibition doesn't do that and only sticks around for up to an hour and a half to two hours max, after that gut MAO-A is working as usual.

"On numerous occasions I have drunk ACRB brew, sans any MAOI, and felt something. Sure, it was subtle, but it was physical, behavioral, and certainly perceptual. I'd appreciate it if you listen to my experience and not write it off as "not possible." For example, I know I'm not the only one who has reported effects with just taking chacruna."

It is my understanding that DMT can be orally active without an MAO-A inhibitor, only if enough is consumed to override/tie up the guts MAO-A enzyme so that enough passes through unscathed, and that would most likely be more common/doable in those who have low amounts of MAO-A already. With that said though, don't underestimate the power of placebo, i'm not discrediting your experience, i'm just saying you've really gotta know and listen to your body and seek consistency/reproducibility rather than assuming something happened without actually investigating/exploring it further, that's how you weed out placebo and false positives/assumptions. I'm not being judgemental or anything just so we're clear, i just think people need to be a bit more scientific in their approach and try to figure things out, otherwise we won't know for sure what's going on.

But i can tell you it's definitely not Serotonin Syndrome and this is coming from someone who has actually suffered Serotonin Syndrome from pharmaceutical medications, i assure you (so rest assured, you're alright). As for you being sensitive to something in the Acacia brew, and have used it before without issue, then imo it would be safe to assume that it's not the Acacia if you haven't noticed any issues before (though you can always do future testing to confirm or deny/to know for sure).

 

[RhythmSpring]

Why do you think some people feel the psychotropic effects of some substances within seconds of oral ingestion? How do you think buccal Salvia works? Is the soft palate not a permeable membrane extremely close to the brain? The gut is not the only place in the digestive tract where chemicals are absorbed into the body. Is there MAO in the brain? In the mouth?