i'm stumped - 2 brews and no luck

[thymamai]

for the blood moon I set up with 100 grams of acrb and 100 of cielo caapi vine. I had everything prepared by midnight - 3 x 3 hour boils respectively for 50g vine and 12 of acacia, reducing each to aprx a cups worth, drinking a 3rd of the "strength" 30 minutes before drinking another 3rd and 20 mins before mixing the "light" in with the final third making the last cupful which was drunk right around the hour the moon was settling into it's deepest red. It was at least 3 hours before I gave up meditating and passed out on the blanket.

the second brew was done identically to the first, except that I weighed out 70g of vine with 24g of blended acrb this time, added a teaspoon of vinegar to each freshly filled pot and, skipped the tannin removal steps entirely. I also fasted throughout the day, taking care to eat very light and minimal. Drinking half of the strength aprx 40 minutes before taking the rest mixed with half of the "light" in the next cup. And finally, 20-30 minutes later took the rest of the "light", followed by 3 or so hours huddled against the fire.

treating all as it were a double-shot of vodka - quick and painless. though I really can't say the taste was so bad, whether heated or cold.

results were identical both tries, too. the vine felt like a glass of wine, feeling an ease and soft introspection not present prior to beginning. and absolutely no nausea but a slight heaviness an hour into the second night, which was exciting while it lasted.

nothing, no visuals eye open or closed. and the sleep very ordinary.

It is a very simple thing, not easy to mess up. Must be an extremely weak batch of acrb, hey? Any thoughts?

 

[۩]

I don't know acrb because I have never used it, but I would up the caapi dose to at least 100-120g if all you are getting is that from 70g.

 

[thymamai]

For sure, next time. This was a short period of free time, unfortunately, and I wish I knew to get more caapi than I did.

It sounds like the purge is essential, and I should've focused on getting that right first.

 

[thymamai]

Just brewed and drank the whole batch again + 60g fresh acrb that was left. Reduced it down to 500ml and broke it into fourths over the course of 2 hours. Acacia is a hard taste to get down at this concentration and quantity, and I definitely felt nausea by cup 1.

Still no purge. But almost immediately after downing the last mugful I realize that I wasn't feeling all together. Textures began doing the things they do, music playing took on a strange potency in my head, and I felt some small comfort and confirmation that I was getting somewhere with this afterall. But it didn't escalate from there.

I'm willing to bet another 60g acrb and it would've put me somewhere close to a subpar psychedelic experience. And purging to my hearts content. Alas, next time.

 

[3rdI]

so whats you dosage now?

50g vine 12g ACRB + 60g ACRB?

 

[thymamai]

Technically 114 grams caapi and 114 grams acrb. But, except for 60 of the acrb, it was used already and reused this time around just for any trace alkaloids left. It's been said that acrb might be orally active without maoi, so I thought it was worth a try. In any case however, it wasn't.

I'm a very slight build and can't have that hard of a head. So my best guess is that either caapi dose wasn't high enough for sufficient maoi, or I was given acacia.. bark.

 

[3rdI]

that's a ridiculously high dose, you should be quite pleased that that amount of bark wasn't activated.

I would try extracting your plants to see what the content is.

 

[DreaMTripper]

Yeah lucky escape that couldve been over a gram of alkaloids!

 

[Sabnock]

Dude, don't go over 20 grams of Acacia, 10 grams is more than enough for me. Make sure you have your MAO inhibited before ingesting the Acacia. I use Rue and haven't used Caapi, but it's the same principle, drink enough to inhibit MAO and when you feel the effects of the Caapi (or Rue), then you drink the Acacia, usually it's 30 minutes after ingestion of the Caapi or Rue.

And if you still can't get things workin', then by golly try some Rue because Rue will def. get that MAO inhibited. There shouldn't be anything wrong with your Acacia, usually it's the MAO issue.

 

[thymamai]

I have always been a lucky goy.

I thought for sure I was feeling 'inhibited' before I took the acrb. As I said, it felt like I'd had a glass of wine. But apparently it isn't until I've got it all coming back up again that I'll know I've been successfully inhibited.

Next go I'll be all in on caapi, at least 120g, maybe 150.

 

[edge2054]

I'm fairly sure the first caapi I bought was Alicia Anisopetala. Drank over 100 grams and never felt more than a little drunk.

Here's some related threads.

Alicia anisopetala (Black ayahuasca) & macrodisca and related vines workspace - Collaborative Research Project - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

Black Caapi Extraction Problems... - Harmalas - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

 

[thymamai]

Thanks, edge. This is encouraging info. Still, over a year later quite puzzled and tempted to try it again now that I'm back home.

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

Caapi vines are great, and I use them for special brews, but generally I have found that peganum harmala seeds work much better, sometimes I brew them in with the ACRB, sometimes I brew them separately, sometimes I swallow 3-4g of seeds 15 minutes before drinking an ACRB brew, but that is all that is needed, 3g, well 3 to 4 grams, but the seeds contain the same harmala alkaloids as caapi vine.


3g PHS
15g ACRB (which is high, maybe my ACRB is super-potent or something, but generally 10g is a very intense dose, I guess it depends on your bark)

When I brew I always try to maintain the lowest boil possible, intense heat will caramelize sugars in the brew causing a worse taste and thick texture, it may also destroy alkaloids, I always bring the water to a low boil, very low, and hold it there for 3-4 hours at a time, then continue in the standard fashion...

Though it sounds like insufficient monoamine oxidase inhibition may have been your issue.

-EG

 

[travsha]

I've drank the same exact batch of Ayahuasca multiple nights in a row and had zero effects some nights and super deep ceremonies other nights. Same dosage. Just how the medicine works sometimes. I've taken huge cups that barely fazed me and I have also drank tiny doses that shot me to the moon - sometimes there is more the the medicine then just dosage of the plants.

Some people also have a lot of emotional walls and need larger doses to let go - I know some people who need as much as 200 grams of caapi, while others get along fine with 50 grams. Strength of plants can also vary greatly (some caapi is very weak). Could also be that is wasnt cooked well - I know many people dont boil it hot enough or use enough water, or maybe they filter after reduction (which can ruin a brew), or so many other things that can make inferior brews...

Hope you have better luck in the future!

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

Yeah, it's fairly common in group sessions for at least one person to not breakthrough or feel much effect at all, even though there was nothing wrong with the brew. It happens to everybody at some point.

...but Don't let a few bummers deter you, yage is a journey, both in the experience and the road to it.

--------
I'm very interested in what was said about brews not being hot enough.

The person who taught me how to brew was skilled in Amazonian shamanism, but I understand that science and shamanic tradition sometimes clash, which is why I was interested in the heat during boiling, I was taught that "burned" brews are the tell-tale sign of a novice brewer, but if there is a more effective way I could be doing this I would very much like to learn it.

I understand that With caapi vines a much more vigorous boil may be required, but I'm still always very cautious to not burn the brew.

(Keep in mind I'm also brewing very small batches, 1-3 person brews at a time, which I was also told do not require the fierce boiling of brews big enough for a village. I'm also brewing with PHS and ACRB far more often than B. Caapi vine and psychotoria viridis leaf)

Is "The Herbal Percolator" method best for caapi?


-EG

 

[travsha]

I brew caapi, so it may be different for rue, but caapi is very strong and woody - you want to pulverize it to get all the alkaloids out! Smash and shred it into tiny bits and then cook it at a low boil. Low boil means there are bubbles - not a simmer, but a boil! This wont burn your brew unless you leave it unattended too long - it will just agitate the vine more to get out the most alkaloids. I have heard a couple people had their first successful brew after raising the temp.

That was with caapi of course though - I have no clue if rue is different...

I always boil and so far have not burnt a brew, though once or twice I did come close when I wasnt paying attention....

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

Thank you for your input.


I generally use PHS,

3g peganum harmala seeds contains 60-180mg harmala alkaloids, 9g contains 200-600mgs harmala alkaloids, and 1 "00" gel-cap (0.7g) contains 15-45mgs harmala alkaloids, this is according to shulgin in TIHKAL (page 454), and I have found it to be a fairly accurate gauge on dosage.

When using PHS you are using 3-5g (per person), the seeds easily blend into a powder and do not require as vigorous of a boiling process. The seeds can also be eaten 15 minutes before consuming DMT, which means you don't even need to boil them into a brew unless you want.

Though I learned with Caapi, and my teacher rejected so many of my brews while I was learning that I began to think he would never approve of any decoction I concocted. Eventually I achieved success, and his method of brewing has been seared into my memory as a result, though this can also be a negative, there may be better ways to do things, and if there are I want to learn them.

I have found that freezing and then thawing your plant material multiple times before brewing helps greatly with breaking down the plant cell walls, helping to free the alkaloids to go into the solution, allowing you to use less heat.

I'm interested in "the herbal percolater" method for caapi, anybody have any experience with this method?

-EG

 

[thymamai]

Would also be interested in hearing about a method involving an herbal percolator.

Thank you travsha and EG for your input.

Early September I tried again, and failed. This time I think i definitely could have filtered a little to make it easier to keep down. But also only got 80grams, when for some reason I thought I'd asked for 120.

I did purge though at least.. But too many times to keep much of it down unfortunately. That stuff is outright vile when you skip filtering altogether.

Once again, thanks for the encouragement. Harmala seeds are sounding easier now.. Be damned if I don't try those for maoi next.