skinwalker said:
Yeah, looks like you might need to do ALOT more research.
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Is the DMT sensation real or cerebral hypoxia?
- Thread starter skinwalker
- Start date
Yeah, looks like you might need to do ALOT more research.
I believe there are far worse hazard possibilities just floating around our modern environments. Its no longer possible to be " on the Natch"
as Terrence has said. There are toxic chemicals in everything at this point.
There is the possibility that DMT is some kind of overload to our brains in its concentrated form. I wonder if ayahuasca studies are completely relevant only in that the levels of pure DMT in ayahuasca is generally lower than smoked pure dmt.
This is not based in any science whatsoever only personal thoughts.
Everything in moderation when possible. There are much worse substances people do and don't get half as much amazement and wonder from.
The dangers i seem to find are simply our abilities to handle being confronted with overwhelming unexplainable phenomena on a regular basis.
Time will tell as to any negative long term effects on the brain.
as Terrence has said. There are toxic chemicals in everything at this point.
There is the possibility that DMT is some kind of overload to our brains in its concentrated form. I wonder if ayahuasca studies are completely relevant only in that the levels of pure DMT in ayahuasca is generally lower than smoked pure dmt.
This is not based in any science whatsoever only personal thoughts.
Everything in moderation when possible. There are much worse substances people do and don't get half as much amazement and wonder from.
The dangers i seem to find are simply our abilities to handle being confronted with overwhelming unexplainable phenomena on a regular basis.
Time will tell as to any negative long term effects on the brain.
People with schizofrenia have diminished activity within the neocortex and often less brain tissue within this region of the brain as well.
All of the classic hallucinogens cause a temporary decrease in electric activity within and bloodflow to the neo-cortex. Maybe in people with a predisposition for devellopping schizofrenia, the temporary decreased activity and bloodflow, may indeed cause tissue damage.
But if this would be the case in all healthy individuals who use psychedelic's (because LSD, mescaline, psilocybin, etc. also do this) then i guess it would have to be a well known fact that psychedelic's cause problems in long term use, like impaired short-term memory, reaction speed, hand-eye-coördination, etc.
Or you would expect people to have develloped a tolerance for low oxygen levels in the brain, like people who go diving without oxygensupply. Some of these people can hold their breath for over 5 minutes.
I don't think either is the case in people who regularly use psychedelics.
All of the classic hallucinogens cause a temporary decrease in electric activity within and bloodflow to the neo-cortex. Maybe in people with a predisposition for devellopping schizofrenia, the temporary decreased activity and bloodflow, may indeed cause tissue damage.
But if this would be the case in all healthy individuals who use psychedelic's (because LSD, mescaline, psilocybin, etc. also do this) then i guess it would have to be a well known fact that psychedelic's cause problems in long term use, like impaired short-term memory, reaction speed, hand-eye-coördination, etc.
Or you would expect people to have develloped a tolerance for low oxygen levels in the brain, like people who go diving without oxygensupply. Some of these people can hold their breath for over 5 minutes.
I don't think either is the case in people who regularly use psychedelics.
skinwalker
Rising Star
burnt said:
thanks for posting, do you have any links to this data by chance? I'm interested in the results.
skinwalker
Rising Star
Saidin said:
I already posted the link with the scientific articles thread, look back in the thread. Alcohol is obviously more toxic than dmt, any pubmed search will tell you that in a second
Ginkgo
Rising Star
It is obvious that the DMT experience is something you personally find hard to cope with. I can fully understand and respect that. Entheogens are not for everyone. Nevertheless, that does not mean your fear is the case for everyone else.
Yes, abusing entheogens by either taking them too often and/or taking them just for 'fun' might give the user psychological troubles. However, when it comes to use within a good context where one take extra caution to set and setting, there's absolutely no indications that it may result in any form of harm.
Yes, abusing entheogens by either taking them too often and/or taking them just for 'fun' might give the user psychological troubles. However, when it comes to use within a good context where one take extra caution to set and setting, there's absolutely no indications that it may result in any form of harm.
Health is still a mistery for the reason this is something very personnal.
There is evidence that some substances abuses such as alcohol and others may cause liver damages, yet some people seem to drink a lot but get away with it.
The effects a substance has on our own perception is not linked to the physical damages it may causes. This would be my statement here, because, again, you sure will find evidence of diverse practitionners of psychedelia who stay perfectly healthy to their mind and to their own body after a century.
Nonetheless, nobody here will tell you that you don't risk anything if you do this or that.
This is your own right to feel your body and your mind the way you want.
We can assure you we feel perfectly fine SWIM doing this, but at the end of the day, this is poeple choices, and if you sign in this forum, you are a responsible adult.
Just take your responsabilities.
I understand perfectly your concerns about health and safety, and there is a lot of discussion here among these lines.
It is more certain the nature of the experience discuss here may be more hazardous psychologically than physically.
So, stay safe. If you don't feel like doing it, simply don't do it.
Best regards,
r0m
There is evidence that some substances abuses such as alcohol and others may cause liver damages, yet some people seem to drink a lot but get away with it.
The effects a substance has on our own perception is not linked to the physical damages it may causes. This would be my statement here, because, again, you sure will find evidence of diverse practitionners of psychedelia who stay perfectly healthy to their mind and to their own body after a century.
Nonetheless, nobody here will tell you that you don't risk anything if you do this or that.
This is your own right to feel your body and your mind the way you want.
We can assure you we feel perfectly fine SWIM doing this, but at the end of the day, this is poeple choices, and if you sign in this forum, you are a responsible adult.
Just take your responsabilities.
I understand perfectly your concerns about health and safety, and there is a lot of discussion here among these lines.
It is more certain the nature of the experience discuss here may be more hazardous psychologically than physically.
So, stay safe. If you don't feel like doing it, simply don't do it.
Best regards,
r0m
Most drugs including beer or liquor is not bad for you IF USED IN MODERATION. You can abuse anything. Beer isnt a bad thing is used sparringly it flushes out your kidneys and in my experience actually makes you feel better as a result but drinking a 12 pack isnt gonna be beneficial.
I can tell you that I KNOW that what happens with DMT is real. I cant prove it to you, or anyone else. All I can do is sit here after what I went through today with a cup of ayahuasca, the rainforest and a bottle of changa..I watched my best friend completely transformed 100%, i watched him go through shit more real than what he previousily knew as "real". I saw the living forest..I saw the gaian network of life. DMT is not toxic BS..DMT is life, and death, and then life..
Much of the DMT experience is not easily put into words, and I assume the same is true of a cerebral hypoxia-induced experience, so written experience reports will fail to answer the question concerning a connection.skinwalker said:
However, the subjective effects of different psychoactive compounds are themselves different, so it’s reasonable to assume that the subjective experience of cerebral hypoxia is not the same as a DMT experience. Why would it be similar to DMT rather than, say salvia or 2C-B, or …?
You’re confusing cause and effect by conflating cerebral hypoxia and psychoactive drugs. Cerebral hypoxia may cause hallucinations and other changes in subjective experience as do psychoactive drugs. But this does not imply that all psychoactive effects are caused ultimately by a single cause, namely cerebral hypoxia. Similar effects can have multiple causes.
Your conflation of cerebral hypoxia also seems to lead you to the conclusion that DMT may be damaging to the brain, since (obviously) cerebral hypoxia is damaging to the brain. There is no logical reason to conclude that DMT is dangerous because hypoxia is dangerous.
The links you provided are either searches which contain your selected terms or speculation on various forums. I couldn’t find any articles which state that DMT causes cerebral hypoxia.
Spiritual effects and brain effects are not mutually exclusive. In fact, it’s reasonable to say that spiritual experiences are not possible without a corresponding change in brain state. Taking DMT produces both spiritual experiences and (to use your language) self-induced brain disturbances. You won’t find any experienced DMT users on this forum who will claim that DMT does not effect his/her brain in a very profound way.
skinwalker
Rising Star
very very well put gibran2. I really apprecaite the thorough reply.
still in the back of my mind i wonder if i were to create a self induced hypoxic state if it wouldnt be similiar to the dmt experience? (god that almost sounds suicidal!..yikes) .
en.wikipedia.org
by the way i in NO WAY promote anyone EVER try any of the games described in that link. I guess i take DMT to validate an afterlife and my whole life i've traveled the world and read every book possible in search of answers to that question. Having found DMT i'm still skeptical if i'm being fooled by a biological process or if I've finally found "proof" of a multidimensional anomolous universe existing within our own consciousness. Creating a self induced hypoxic state in my opinion would immediately validate if there was a connection between DMT and cell death. the problem here is the process of testing WOULD irrefutably cause subtle to potentially larger brain damage (or possibly no less than we are already generating)
still in the back of my mind i wonder if i were to create a self induced hypoxic state if it wouldnt be similiar to the dmt experience? (god that almost sounds suicidal!..yikes) .
Choking game - Wikipedia
by the way i in NO WAY promote anyone EVER try any of the games described in that link. I guess i take DMT to validate an afterlife and my whole life i've traveled the world and read every book possible in search of answers to that question. Having found DMT i'm still skeptical if i'm being fooled by a biological process or if I've finally found "proof" of a multidimensional anomolous universe existing within our own consciousness. Creating a self induced hypoxic state in my opinion would immediately validate if there was a connection between DMT and cell death. the problem here is the process of testing WOULD irrefutably cause subtle to potentially larger brain damage (or possibly no less than we are already generating)
believe it may have a bit to do with hypoxia.
believe hypoxia as a temporary "overload" of brain.
impulses coming fast, faster, faster to the point where is too much.
experiences some sort of this state after lsd+nitrous oxide.
thats for smoked pure stuff, changa seems bit better, still ayahusasca to try one day...
sensation has fair bit or reality, but distorted by side effects of substance, hypoxia, set and settings.
^..^
believe hypoxia as a temporary "overload" of brain.
impulses coming fast, faster, faster to the point where is too much.
experiences some sort of this state after lsd+nitrous oxide.
thats for smoked pure stuff, changa seems bit better, still ayahusasca to try one day...
sensation has fair bit or reality, but distorted by side effects of substance, hypoxia, set and settings.
^..^
And even if it was (which I seriously doubt), what would that show other than that the two experiences were subjectively "similar"? The mechanisms for the occurrence of each experience would be entirely different. To me this is like saying, "rain is when water falls on me from above, so when I get into the shower it is raining."skinwalker said:
88
Rising Star
I'm not aware of any studies into the physical/neurological effects of smoked dmt - and absence of evidence is not the same as evidence of absence. There are all sorts of issues to consider - what is the effect on the lungs? The brain? Your teeth? No-one has studied this, that I know of (happy to be informed otherwise).
We don't really know what this stuff does to us; but most of us here has taken that into consideration. The tension between the desire to see and the fear of consequence is a big part of this journey.
I thank you for bringing this issue out - because anyone looking for something safe and tested should probably not be messing around with this.
If you're concerned, leave it alone. There are no brownie points, there is no kudos for pushing it -if you are worried this is going to damage your brain, then just don't do it.
Be safe
We don't really know what this stuff does to us; but most of us here has taken that into consideration. The tension between the desire to see and the fear of consequence is a big part of this journey.
I thank you for bringing this issue out - because anyone looking for something safe and tested should probably not be messing around with this.
If you're concerned, leave it alone. There are no brownie points, there is no kudos for pushing it -if you are worried this is going to damage your brain, then just don't do it.
Be safe
Dmt taken orally lasts for hours. There's no way I went through hypoxia for hours and came out ok on the other side. Also, it's easily noted by anyone who's passed out from lack of oxygen, or hyperventilating that actual hypxia and dmt use are not the same at all.
skinwalker
Rising Star
awsome quote 88, love it!
last question has anyone else noticed any bizarre physical or behavioral changes since DMT usage? For me the two noticable are i seem to smell DMT alllllll the time, on people, on myself, and at random places. the other is that my hand seems to twitch sometimes which i noticed myself doing about the 3rd time i smoked. Kinda of a "i dont know whats going on" movement with my hand, notice myself doing this alot involentarily... i wouldnt call it a termor however but it is peculiar.
StrangeLoop
Rising Star
I've never noticed any physical effects but smelling DMT happens sometimes. Often it feels like there's DMT residue in my throat if I smoked within the past couple days and a good solid cough brings out the taste. Other times yea I will just smell it in the air. I blame this on DMT not really having a distinct smell like marijuana though. DMT smells somewhere between freshly blooming flowers, burning plastic, and organic chemistry solvents. I smell it ALL the time in lab at university. There's just an awful lot of things that have the same smell.
jmaxton
Rising Star
As a kid I would lean over so my head was below my heart and breath heavily, then stand up quickly and hold my throat to cut off oxygen to my brain. DEFINITELY not the smartest thing I've doneskinwalker said:still in the back of my mind i wonder if i were to create a self induced hypoxic state if it wouldnt be similiar to the dmt experience? (god that almost sounds suicidal!..yikes) .
Choking game - Wikipedia
, but I guess I've always been searching for an altered state and this did the trick pretty well at the time. I can say without a doubt that the results were qualitatively different than those of the DMT state. The 'hypoxia' felt much more like the effects of huffing a nitrous balloon, with echoes and spotted visions kind of like when you get tunnel vision just before passing out from drinking too much. I also experience 'pseudo-convulsions' with both hypoxia and nitrous. In my mind, I fall into some sort of cycle where I'm repeating motions for some reason, but to external observers they look like convulsions. This does not happen to me with DMT.
The hypoxia is more like a dream state and the DMT state is infinitely more realistic and complex. DMT also has a more conscious and rational feel to it, even though the visions often makes no sense at all. Don't get me wrong, there are definitely similarities between the two. Both produce 'visions' and an altered state of consciousness. I believe they both somehow connect our consciousness to a part of our mind/being that's either normally dormant or operating at a level below our conscious mind's ability to perceive it as separate. I feel as if the 'hypoxia' effects take me to a place where my brain thinks it needs to fight for survival, so nonessential functions are turned off to divert energy into keeping my heart pumping and my lungs sucking oxygen. DMT also takes me somewhere, to another place, but it's just not the same place. It sometimes feels like death as well, but the feeling in my brain isn't such a primal panic. I see it as the difference between ego death and carnal death. Both can be scary, but they're very different feelings.
In my experience these two states aren't similar enough to conclude that they are caused by the same physical mechanism, specifically hypoxia. That's not to say that DMT doesn't trigger some other mechanism(s) as well as a bit of hypoxia. I just don't think it's rational to assume that the effects of DMT are due solely to hypoxia. Of course these are only my personal experiences and as such they're subject to my initial interpretations and reinterpretations over time. No memory is exact, especially one of an altered state! Either way, I firmly believe that the DMT state and a state caused by hypoxia are drastically different things.
I feel it's important for the community to discuss health-related topics such as these at length, so thanks for bringing it up! Also, I hope this post serves to resolve some of the curiosity around the 'hypoxic' (sp?) state without anyone needing to reproduce the naive and self destructive experiments of my youth :roll: .
Regards,
-JM