psilocybin
Rising Star
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downwardsfromzero
Boundary condition
Firstly, that's a great write-up, sidi.m.
Secondly, would you like it moved to the Acacia section?
What little I know about Acacias is that the narrow phyllode acuminata is said to give better yields.
There have been reports in the literature that chloroform can react with both DMT and mescaline to give a chlorinated derivative of each. I don't think this is the reason for your poor yield but it's perhaps worthy of consideration. The tree most likely doesn't produce much DMT. The effects seem consistent with a predominant NMT content.
Also I think the menthol odour could be linked to the caraway in your grinder.
Secondly, would you like it moved to the Acacia section?
What little I know about Acacias is that the narrow phyllode acuminata is said to give better yields.
There have been reports in the literature that chloroform can react with both DMT and mescaline to give a chlorinated derivative of each. I don't think this is the reason for your poor yield but it's perhaps worthy of consideration. The tree most likely doesn't produce much DMT. The effects seem consistent with a predominant NMT content.
Also I think the menthol odour could be linked to the caraway in your grinder.
neurobloom
Established member
Thank you for sharing!
I used chloroform for my mescaline extraction more times than I can remember without any issues. I don't think any chlorinated byproducts would be in any significant quantities if any especially that the alkaloids are only in the solvent for a short period of time.
I heard about the narrow Phyllodes acuminata being a better choice but wide Phyllodes are the only known to be active species of acacia that I was able to find growing in my country. The first extract I pulled there was no caraway in the material....it was ground at home using a coffee grinder that was cleaned beforehand.
The caraway contamination is in today's material that I have just grinded in the spice shop. I'd say maybe 3% contaminated with Caraway which might leech some caraway essential oils into the extract which might actually give a pleasant scent and taste to it. Have to try and hope for the best.
Interesting what you said about NMT. I have just mixed the finely shredded bark and Phyllodes in a stainless pot with a nice cup of venegar and one cup of dry isopropyl alcohol mixed it all up then added spring water till the water has covered the material .. I placed it then in the fridge for a couple freeze and thaw cycles...
Planning to boil it after that for couple hours ...decant and add fresh water a spoon of venegar and boil again for couple hours... Combine..reduce .. base and pull
I used chloroform for my mescaline extraction more times than I can remember without any issues. I don't think any chlorinated byproducts would be in any significant quantities if any especially that the alkaloids are only in the solvent for a short period of time.
I heard about the narrow Phyllodes acuminata being a better choice but wide Phyllodes are the only known to be active species of acacia that I was able to find growing in my country. The first extract I pulled there was no caraway in the material....it was ground at home using a coffee grinder that was cleaned beforehand.
The caraway contamination is in today's material that I have just grinded in the spice shop. I'd say maybe 3% contaminated with Caraway which might leech some caraway essential oils into the extract which might actually give a pleasant scent and taste to it. Have to try and hope for the best.
Interesting what you said about NMT. I have just mixed the finely shredded bark and Phyllodes in a stainless pot with a nice cup of venegar and one cup of dry isopropyl alcohol mixed it all up then added spring water till the water has covered the material .. I placed it then in the fridge for a couple freeze and thaw cycles...
Planning to boil it after that for couple hours ...decant and add fresh water a spoon of venegar and boil again for couple hours... Combine..reduce .. base and pull
neurobloom
Established member
Yes I would love for it to be moved to the Acacia section of the nexus that would be great thank you.
downwardsfromzero
Boundary condition
I'm thinking maybe this deserves its own thread - if you agree with this, what title would you like?Sidisheikh.mehriz said:
The chlorinated derivatives presumably were typically detected with GC/MS so I ought to check the literature and see what concentrations were found.
Speaking of chromatography, have you tested your extracts with TLC? That would be a first step in understanding what you're dealing with - and we do know that several Acacia species produce NMT, including A. confusa. There are several online guides to making your own tlc plates, and sooner or later I'll get round to making some plates of my own. I'll share the process here once it happens.
Is there any precedent for using the isopropyl alcohol this way? do you think it helps? Doesn't it just make the boils a bit more stinky?
neurobloom
Established member
My reasoning behind the isopropyl is to expose the bark to the acidic solution for more permeability by dissolving gums, lipids, tannins and whatnot. I mean it's a sticky bark when removed fresh...sticks like weak glue that can't be good.
In my oral brew from this bark with rue I added some milk to the bark yea and it instantly formed a thick sediment that dropped to the bottom and the tea became lot clearer and lighter colour think that's all the tannins ...the tea tasted a lot less harsh also by the way... Could the casein in milk replace egg white (albumin) as a protein to catch the tannins? In extraction wood this effect yield? Like alkaloids getting trapped with the protein instead of remaining in solution?
In my oral brew from this bark with rue I added some milk to the bark yea and it instantly formed a thick sediment that dropped to the bottom and the tea became lot clearer and lighter colour think that's all the tannins ...the tea tasted a lot less harsh also by the way... Could the casein in milk replace egg white (albumin) as a protein to catch the tannins? In extraction wood this effect yield? Like alkaloids getting trapped with the protein instead of remaining in solution?
downwardsfromzero
Boundary condition
I see. Is acacia gum really that soluble in alcohol? Are there really sufficient alcohol-soluble compounds for this too be warranted?
Milk could well act like egg white but it risks introducing additional fats and sugars - you might at least be OK with skimmed milk for an extraction. I found milk was OK in oral rue brews but there is the risk that DMT might stick to it if precipitated; you'd perhaps have to consider what the properties of the major casein amino acids are and how that compares with albumin. But of course the tannins themselves might also trap the DMT.
I'd best sleep on this, it's gotten beyond late here.
Milk could well act like egg white but it risks introducing additional fats and sugars - you might at least be OK with skimmed milk for an extraction. I found milk was OK in oral rue brews but there is the risk that DMT might stick to it if precipitated; you'd perhaps have to consider what the properties of the major casein amino acids are and how that compares with albumin. But of course the tannins themselves might also trap the DMT.
I'd best sleep on this, it's gotten beyond late here.
nitrogenaztec
Rising Star
My process failed:
So... I followed a guide designed to give "maximum yields". I followed it mostly to the letter. But I got terrible yield. See the picture. I put a 1p (UK) coin for scale.
I'll explain what I did differently, but I don't think it should be a problem. The guide is meant to give 2% yields.
I started with 50g MHRB in a powdered form. I used the tek "**Cybs' Hybrid ATB 'Salt' Tek"**:
OK... so the materials I used:
* Hexane 99.9% pure
* 50g MHRB
* ordinary vinegar
* lye (NaOH)
* Unprocessed sea salt (non-iodised)
* A glass bottle, and a steel spike, and a turkey baster and another glass cup.
All phases I completed, I heated and stirred as asked, including cooling and warming a few times. I did the acid phase, then the salting phase, then base phase, then the naptha (hexane) phase.
The hexane I did slightly differently at first... I think I did my pulls cold, however, I mixed it very very thoroughly, I actually put it in a sealed bottle and went on a long walk with it (2 hours)... all the bumps helped mix it. I also shook it upside down and back up again for about 10 minutes.
I got some pulls from it. I stored them in a container. I was very careful not to get any lye. Once or twice I did get some lye in my glass container for my pulls, but I was able to reseparate it, using eyedroppers.
After I did 4 pulls, I realised that "oh wait... am I meant to do the pulls hot?" So I tried doing doing a warm pull. Stirred and warmed/cooled a fe times as asked over 1 hour.
I did two warm pulls, by this 6th pull, the pulls were very pale. So I stopped trying. Yes, my final "warm pull" was very pale. So I gave up. I thought I had enough.
the final combined pull had some kind "dark brown gunk" at the bottom. This is really the only part where I departed from the guide. It wasn't water soluble. What I did at this point, is I did a sodium carbonate wash. So I mixed the combined pulls with water, and a tiny amount of sodium carbonate. I shook it in a closed container a lot. then I sucked out the water with a baster. I also sucked out the dark brown gunk.
After this, I had a combined pull of very pure looking yellow liquid.
I was GOING to freeze it, but I realised I had so little liquid (hexane evaps fast) and it wasn't at all cloudy, so I just evapped the whole thing.
And this is what I was left with. A tiny amount.
I don't know what I did wrong.
I heated/cooked/stirred all for the amount of time asked. I used 50g as asked. I salted with the right amount as asked. lye/vinegar too, in the order asked. Everything... the same except the pulls were cold, but my last warm pull was very pale, so... I don't know.
I really felt like I needed someone to help me... just intuitively i felt like "I probably won't get it right unless someone helps me". but I did it alone and this is what happened.
Ideas anyone? Could it be the sodium carbonate wash removed all the DMT or the MHRB is low yield or... was it the pull temp?
I can't work it out.
So... I followed a guide designed to give "maximum yields". I followed it mostly to the letter. But I got terrible yield. See the picture. I put a 1p (UK) coin for scale.
I'll explain what I did differently, but I don't think it should be a problem. The guide is meant to give 2% yields.
I started with 50g MHRB in a powdered form. I used the tek "**Cybs' Hybrid ATB 'Salt' Tek"**:
OK... so the materials I used:
* Hexane 99.9% pure
* 50g MHRB
* ordinary vinegar
* lye (NaOH)
* Unprocessed sea salt (non-iodised)
* A glass bottle, and a steel spike, and a turkey baster and another glass cup.
All phases I completed, I heated and stirred as asked, including cooling and warming a few times. I did the acid phase, then the salting phase, then base phase, then the naptha (hexane) phase.
The hexane I did slightly differently at first... I think I did my pulls cold, however, I mixed it very very thoroughly, I actually put it in a sealed bottle and went on a long walk with it (2 hours)... all the bumps helped mix it. I also shook it upside down and back up again for about 10 minutes.
I got some pulls from it. I stored them in a container. I was very careful not to get any lye. Once or twice I did get some lye in my glass container for my pulls, but I was able to reseparate it, using eyedroppers.
After I did 4 pulls, I realised that "oh wait... am I meant to do the pulls hot?" So I tried doing doing a warm pull. Stirred and warmed/cooled a fe times as asked over 1 hour.
I did two warm pulls, by this 6th pull, the pulls were very pale. So I stopped trying. Yes, my final "warm pull" was very pale. So I gave up. I thought I had enough.
the final combined pull had some kind "dark brown gunk" at the bottom. This is really the only part where I departed from the guide. It wasn't water soluble. What I did at this point, is I did a sodium carbonate wash. So I mixed the combined pulls with water, and a tiny amount of sodium carbonate. I shook it in a closed container a lot. then I sucked out the water with a baster. I also sucked out the dark brown gunk.
After this, I had a combined pull of very pure looking yellow liquid.
I was GOING to freeze it, but I realised I had so little liquid (hexane evaps fast) and it wasn't at all cloudy, so I just evapped the whole thing.
And this is what I was left with. A tiny amount.
I don't know what I did wrong.
I heated/cooked/stirred all for the amount of time asked. I used 50g as asked. I salted with the right amount as asked. lye/vinegar too, in the order asked. Everything... the same except the pulls were cold, but my last warm pull was very pale, so... I don't know.
I really felt like I needed someone to help me... just intuitively i felt like "I probably won't get it right unless someone helps me". but I did it alone and this is what happened.
Ideas anyone? Could it be the sodium carbonate wash removed all the DMT or the MHRB is low yield or... was it the pull temp?
I can't work it out.
Attachments
Hey nitrogenaztec,
I don't really see where you went wrong, either. Which can mean one of three things:
- i'm missing something
- the pulls were too cold
- the bark is weak
I don't think the sodcarb wash could have removed the dmt, unless the water was so low in pH that even with the added carbonate it was still acidic and turned the freebase back into a salt which then dissolved in the water. If you still have that wash water, you could base it with lye and see if an oily layer forms on top - if so, the carbonate wash was the culprit and you found your dmt. Cool everything, collect the freebase layer when it's hard enough, recrystallise to get rid of any lye and/or sodcarb sticking to it.
If you still have the soup, i'd do 2 or 3 more warm pulls. That is, heat the soup to ca. 50°C, then do the pulls. Stir or shake well (but not so hard that you make an emulsion) several times over the course of maybe 15min per pull and collect the hexane while it's still warm. Freeze precip or evap and see if this gives more product. If not, i suspect you do have weak bark.
Even in that case, you should probably do another extraction with the same bark, just to be sure. Keep everything until you're done. Feel free to come to chat first if you want to go through your planned steps with someone. Be aware though that the welcome area is sometimes really slow, you might have to wait a few hours for an answer.
I don't really see where you went wrong, either. Which can mean one of three things:
- i'm missing something
- the pulls were too cold
- the bark is weak
I don't think the sodcarb wash could have removed the dmt, unless the water was so low in pH that even with the added carbonate it was still acidic and turned the freebase back into a salt which then dissolved in the water. If you still have that wash water, you could base it with lye and see if an oily layer forms on top - if so, the carbonate wash was the culprit and you found your dmt. Cool everything, collect the freebase layer when it's hard enough, recrystallise to get rid of any lye and/or sodcarb sticking to it.
If you still have the soup, i'd do 2 or 3 more warm pulls. That is, heat the soup to ca. 50°C, then do the pulls. Stir or shake well (but not so hard that you make an emulsion) several times over the course of maybe 15min per pull and collect the hexane while it's still warm. Freeze precip or evap and see if this gives more product. If not, i suspect you do have weak bark.
Even in that case, you should probably do another extraction with the same bark, just to be sure. Keep everything until you're done. Feel free to come to chat first if you want to go through your planned steps with someone. Be aware though that the welcome area is sometimes really slow, you might have to wait a few hours for an answer.
nitrogenaztec
Rising Star
I'm trynig the lazyman tek and its working much better!
L-dreamer
Esteemed member
nitrogenaztec said:
I still have not seen, how much you got from using cyb's tek? do you have an actual mg scale? Don't get too hung up on the percentages, a lot of barks will not give you 2%. I pull about 700-800 mg from 50 g with cyb's tek, and that is enough in the short term for whatever you want to do. At least you are happier with another method
downwardsfromzero
Boundary condition
I wouldn't say it failed - you certainly got some product. Given that it's quite gooey, if you were to weigh it you might find you've more than than you would have expected. The problem is likely to be both the bark and the hexane, for exactly the reasons you suspect. But, given that Lazyman's is giving you better results (and on that note, it would be great if you could write that up separately) it seems the bark isn't as bad as it could be.nitrogenaztec said:
Hexane is a poor solvent for DMT, and it is volatile enough that it becomes difficult to warm it sufficiently for an efficient extraction without using closed apparatus. Add to that its problems with neurotoxicity and it becomes clear that a higher-boiling petroleum fraction is a far better choice when performing the initial extraction; at best, the hexane can be reserved for recrystallisation purposes.
Many years ago, my first ever extraction from MHRB yielded 2%, pulled using BBQ lighting fluid from W**k**sons and photographic cleaning fluid (being identical to light naphtha) for the re-x. I would like to re-emphasise, you ought to minimise your exposure to n-hexane.
Looking at the details of Lazyman's tek, you might want to give this thread:
Minimum Polymer
a quick (!) read through. Since you are using powdered bark, you can keep the base contact time to a minimum.
And make sure you find a replacement for that hexane
nitrogenaztec
Rising Star
downwardsfromzero said:Hexane is a poor solvent for DMT ... problems with neurotoxicity... make sure you find a replacement for that hexane
I didn't know that its a neuro-toxin... wow.
I was told that hexane was "the ideal" chemical as it extracts more DMT than the others, and that heptane is worse than hexane. So... I don't know really. I was just going by what I read.
Thanks for the (Again) indepth reply from a very experienced background. Its amazingly helpful actually.
Hexane is also kinda pricy and I don't like how fast it evaps... it makes things harder when your solvent disappears during the middle of collection process... leaving crystals in places you didn't want.
downwardsfromzero said:
Advantage of being a chemist I guess
nitrogenaztec
Rising Star
downwardsfromzero said:
Wow interesting, so perhaps my DMT on the first attempt turned into a polymer, lowering the yield? It would explain the gooey product. I'll do some reading on that thread on how to prevent this.
The hexane... I went with information like this:
downwardsfromzero
Boundary condition
It seems some indoles can easily lose an electron or two and join up with their neighbouring molecules into short chains. Fortunately, a quick acid treatment seems to get most of the electrons to go back to their original hangouts, allowing the molecules to separate again and crystals to form instead of goo. Or something like that
The Reddit thread: Well, at least someone mentioned it, "You can use it the same way as naphtha but be warned it is more neurotoxic and you should be wearing an organic solvents respirator."
Bear in mind that Reddit is largely a fog of opinions: lower down in the thread we see,
"Heptane is superior to hexane"
Also, cheap and readily available in one location does not necessarily apply to any other location. That's one of the reasons why I ended up using BBQ lighting fluid.
I'd been more or less away from chemistry for about eight years at that point and that particular extraction may just have gotten me back into it, in terms of it leading inexorably towards the Nexus, at least. And to think, I lost virtually all of that material at a music festival a few weeks later :lol:
The Reddit thread: Well, at least someone mentioned it, "You can use it the same way as naphtha but be warned it is more neurotoxic and you should be wearing an organic solvents respirator."
Bear in mind that Reddit is largely a fog of opinions: lower down in the thread we see,
"Heptane is superior to hexane"
Also, cheap and readily available in one location does not necessarily apply to any other location. That's one of the reasons why I ended up using BBQ lighting fluid.
I think having a friend in the right head shop may have contributed equally as muchAdvantage of being a chemist I guess
I'd been more or less away from chemistry for about eight years at that point and that particular extraction may just have gotten me back into it, in terms of it leading inexorably towards the Nexus, at least. And to think, I lost virtually all of that material at a music festival a few weeks later :lol:noonessake
Rising Star
Hello friends of the inner journey!
I am new here, but not so new to exploring the inner worlds. After some, many, experiences with the usual suspects like mushrooms, LSD, ketamine, salvia etc. I stumbled across my first n,n-dmt a few years ago which I once got as (rather bad because very yellow) MHRB extract as well as a small batch of changa. Since my supply is coming to an end, and I have by no means finished my research, I wanted to try my hand at extracting from MHRB myself. I have selected the Nomans Tek as the method of choice, but have a few questions based on the instructions. I last successfully did the Peganum Harmala tumbleweed extraction. That in itself was not a big deal. However, with the Normas Tek method which is described here in the wiki, some questions arise that I would like to ask here:
What do i have (No Questions):
- Dust mask, safety goggles and rubber gloves
- 100g of MHRB powder
- Mixing jar
- Vinegar 25% acid
- Collection jars – 4 wide mouth 8 oz (250mL) jelly jars with lids
- Separating apparatus - a Lab Dropper 10ml
- Coffee filters
- Rubber spatula
- Very cold freezer – i only have one, so i think i must take what i have, but it freezes water to ice cubes
What do i have (Questions):
- Non-sudsy ammonia – 10% solution, e.g. “janitorial strength” from Ace hardware, is optimal, but 5% “household strength” will do as well.
-> QUESTION: If i get the updates on this TEK right, i dont need ammonia anymore?
- Water
-> QUESTION: Is it better to use distilled water?
- LYE
-> QUESTION: I have pure "sodium hydroxide" granulate i used for the Peganum Harmala extraction. Can i use this?
- Naptha – get VM+P and not lighter fluid
-> QUESTION: Since i'm not from the US, my research led me to this "Cleaning petrol 100/140°". I could only match it via the Temperature. Can someone confirm this is the right "naptha" or tell me what to buy in the EU or what it is called here?
- Eye-dropper
-> Question: For what???
So, if we get the Materials clear, we get into the Process. So here are the Steps and my questions:
Extraction Procedure
1. Pulverize the bark until it’s just fiber and pink/purple dust. It should be snapped into small pieces and run through a coffee grinder or blender at high speed. You may need pruning shears to cut the bark small enough to grind properly. It needs to be completely broken down. The dust created is very fine and astringent to the respiratory tract. Unless you dig big cakey purple boogers, wear a mask.
-> Don’t need to do this since I already have MHRB powder.
2. Mix 15mL water and 1g lye per gram of bark in the mixing jar. For example: 50g bark would require 750mL water and 50g lye. One level tablespoon of lye weighs about 15g, though this can vary considerably, better to use a scale. Note that lye is dangerous. Blind you forever dangerous. Wear eye protection and have a bottle of vinegar handy as a neutralizer and for clean up. Add the lye to the water slowly stirring constantly until completely dissolved.
-> QUESTION: Namely, I understand it like this: I have 100gr MHRB, which makes 1.500ml or 1.5L and 100gr lye granules for my 100gr MHRB. Correct?
3. Add the powdered bark, cap and shake the jar and let the bark soak for awhile. An hour or so.
4. Now add 1mL naptha per gram of bark in the mixing jar and turn the jar end over end. Do not shake or splash or there will be a tendency for the solution to form an emulsion. Simply roll the naptha around in the bark solution. Do this for one minute and then let the jar stand until the naptha has pretty much separated to the top. Repeat agitation three more times.
-> QUESTION: for 100gr of MHRB, I add 100ml of naptha to my mixture. Okay. Then I turn my container of everything upside down. Okay. Now what exactly is meant by "roll" here? I understand it to mean that I just turn the container but don't shake it. Or I put the container on the side wall, so I can really roll it!? And do I fill the naptha in the middle of the container? So that it can distribute itself by rolling to the sides? And after the naptha has separated to the top i do it 3 more times. Can i see it clearly that it has separated (this question is also relevant for next step)?
5. After the final agitation, separate the two layers. The naptha (top layer) goes in one of the collection jars, the rest stays in the mixing jar with the bark.
-> QUESTION: For this I put the vessel mixed with the naptha in the previous step back the right way up, and let it stand for how long? So how long does the mixture need to separate from each other, so that I can then skim the naptha into the collection jar?
6. Put the collection jar in the freezer.
7. Repeat steps 4 to 6 three more times. Leave the last NP extraction in the jar for a day or two, agitating occasionally to pick up any strays.
-> QUESTION: At the end of step 7, which is this one, I have 3 containers of just skimmed naphtha in the freezer. And one container with the MHRB lye mixture AND the naptha not in the freezer. This I leave outside, so at room temperature and stir this occasionally around within the 1-2 days? Or do i put this one also in the freezer?
8. Go to bed. You should have a collection of snow globes waiting for you in the morning.
-> QUESTION: So after I separate the naptha, I wait 24 hours. Okay. But what do I do with the last container where I have not yet separated the naptha? Do I do the same thing with that one, just 1-2 days later? So do I separate the naptha here only after 1-2 days and then leave it in the freezer again for 24 hours?
9. Pour each jar of naptha out through a coffee filter. Save the naptha, which can be reused in the next batch or evaporated down producing a residue which can be further refined (see recrystallization below). A lot of paste will stick to the sides of the jar, so use a small rubber spatula to scrape the sides down onto the filter as well. Spread each filter out to dry. There will still be some residue in the jars, a bit of Salvia or MJ will scrub them out nicely.
-> QUESTION: Basically, I have understood what has to be done here. But where exactly is the n,n-DMT now at the end and in which state or in which purity?
1. in the coffee filter after it has dried - is this where I find the crystals?
2. in the naptha when I let it evaporate after it has gone through the coffee filter?
3. in the residues in the glass which I remove with a rubber spatula?
Which substance is exactly what and how do I proceed with each of the 3?
10. (There used to be another step here in the original Noman's Tek, the infamous 'ammonia wash', but it was removed with the consent of Noman, since it caused many problems of loss of yield and its a very innefective way of cleaning. DO NOT DO THE AMMONIA WASH. If one wants to clean the crystals (specially if some of the lye/bark solution came across accidentally when separating the solvent), what one can do is a sodium carbonate wash. This is done by redissolving the crystals in naphtha. Then separately, make a solution of water with a bit of sodium carbonate (no need to be accurate, just a pinch of sodium carbonate to, say, 50ml water). Then mix the sodium carbonate solution with the solvent containing the dmt, separate, discarding the water, and freeze the solvent. Voilá
-> QUESTION: I understand this step as not absolutely necessary, or only if you want to further refine some substances. I also read here that the ammonia mentioned in the materials list at the beginning is not needed. Why is it then still in the material list?
So, that’s it. All my questions I need to clarify before I want to start. I hope this is the right place for that and i hope that someone can help me with this.
All the best and peace!
EDIT: I just read the Lazyman's tek and found it to be even more easier and less prone to possible errors since you can completely skip the freezer and filtering process. Also it reminds me of the "QWISO" isopropyl concentrate extraction i have done already that is used to remove the cannabinoid-rich trichomes from cannabis flowers. Furthermore the article keeps mentioning how good the yield is supposed to be. Are there any comparisons to the Nomans Tek in terms of yield and difficulty and purity? One thing is also contradictory for me, with Nomans Tek it is said NOT to let the naptha evaporate by using e.g. a fan, because you worsen the result or make it n,n-DMT oxide, with the Lazyman Tek you are supposed to do exactly that? How does this fit together? What do you recommend as a first time extraction (keep in mind that i have 100gr MHRB powdered)?
I am new here, but not so new to exploring the inner worlds. After some, many, experiences with the usual suspects like mushrooms, LSD, ketamine, salvia etc. I stumbled across my first n,n-dmt a few years ago which I once got as (rather bad because very yellow) MHRB extract as well as a small batch of changa. Since my supply is coming to an end, and I have by no means finished my research, I wanted to try my hand at extracting from MHRB myself. I have selected the Nomans Tek as the method of choice, but have a few questions based on the instructions. I last successfully did the Peganum Harmala tumbleweed extraction. That in itself was not a big deal. However, with the Normas Tek method which is described here in the wiki, some questions arise that I would like to ask here:
What do i have (No Questions):
- Dust mask, safety goggles and rubber gloves
- 100g of MHRB powder
- Mixing jar
- Vinegar 25% acid
- Collection jars – 4 wide mouth 8 oz (250mL) jelly jars with lids
- Separating apparatus - a Lab Dropper 10ml
- Coffee filters
- Rubber spatula
- Very cold freezer – i only have one, so i think i must take what i have, but it freezes water to ice cubes
What do i have (Questions):
- Non-sudsy ammonia – 10% solution, e.g. “janitorial strength” from Ace hardware, is optimal, but 5% “household strength” will do as well.
-> QUESTION: If i get the updates on this TEK right, i dont need ammonia anymore?
- Water
-> QUESTION: Is it better to use distilled water?
- LYE
-> QUESTION: I have pure "sodium hydroxide" granulate i used for the Peganum Harmala extraction. Can i use this?
- Naptha – get VM+P and not lighter fluid
-> QUESTION: Since i'm not from the US, my research led me to this "Cleaning petrol 100/140°". I could only match it via the Temperature. Can someone confirm this is the right "naptha" or tell me what to buy in the EU or what it is called here?
- Eye-dropper
-> Question: For what???
So, if we get the Materials clear, we get into the Process. So here are the Steps and my questions:
Extraction Procedure
1. Pulverize the bark until it’s just fiber and pink/purple dust. It should be snapped into small pieces and run through a coffee grinder or blender at high speed. You may need pruning shears to cut the bark small enough to grind properly. It needs to be completely broken down. The dust created is very fine and astringent to the respiratory tract. Unless you dig big cakey purple boogers, wear a mask.
-> Don’t need to do this since I already have MHRB powder.
2. Mix 15mL water and 1g lye per gram of bark in the mixing jar. For example: 50g bark would require 750mL water and 50g lye. One level tablespoon of lye weighs about 15g, though this can vary considerably, better to use a scale. Note that lye is dangerous. Blind you forever dangerous. Wear eye protection and have a bottle of vinegar handy as a neutralizer and for clean up. Add the lye to the water slowly stirring constantly until completely dissolved.
-> QUESTION: Namely, I understand it like this: I have 100gr MHRB, which makes 1.500ml or 1.5L and 100gr lye granules for my 100gr MHRB. Correct?
3. Add the powdered bark, cap and shake the jar and let the bark soak for awhile. An hour or so.
4. Now add 1mL naptha per gram of bark in the mixing jar and turn the jar end over end. Do not shake or splash or there will be a tendency for the solution to form an emulsion. Simply roll the naptha around in the bark solution. Do this for one minute and then let the jar stand until the naptha has pretty much separated to the top. Repeat agitation three more times.
-> QUESTION: for 100gr of MHRB, I add 100ml of naptha to my mixture. Okay. Then I turn my container of everything upside down. Okay. Now what exactly is meant by "roll" here? I understand it to mean that I just turn the container but don't shake it. Or I put the container on the side wall, so I can really roll it!? And do I fill the naptha in the middle of the container? So that it can distribute itself by rolling to the sides? And after the naptha has separated to the top i do it 3 more times. Can i see it clearly that it has separated (this question is also relevant for next step)?
5. After the final agitation, separate the two layers. The naptha (top layer) goes in one of the collection jars, the rest stays in the mixing jar with the bark.
-> QUESTION: For this I put the vessel mixed with the naptha in the previous step back the right way up, and let it stand for how long? So how long does the mixture need to separate from each other, so that I can then skim the naptha into the collection jar?
6. Put the collection jar in the freezer.
7. Repeat steps 4 to 6 three more times. Leave the last NP extraction in the jar for a day or two, agitating occasionally to pick up any strays.
-> QUESTION: At the end of step 7, which is this one, I have 3 containers of just skimmed naphtha in the freezer. And one container with the MHRB lye mixture AND the naptha not in the freezer. This I leave outside, so at room temperature and stir this occasionally around within the 1-2 days? Or do i put this one also in the freezer?
8. Go to bed. You should have a collection of snow globes waiting for you in the morning.
-> QUESTION: So after I separate the naptha, I wait 24 hours. Okay. But what do I do with the last container where I have not yet separated the naptha? Do I do the same thing with that one, just 1-2 days later? So do I separate the naptha here only after 1-2 days and then leave it in the freezer again for 24 hours?
9. Pour each jar of naptha out through a coffee filter. Save the naptha, which can be reused in the next batch or evaporated down producing a residue which can be further refined (see recrystallization below). A lot of paste will stick to the sides of the jar, so use a small rubber spatula to scrape the sides down onto the filter as well. Spread each filter out to dry. There will still be some residue in the jars, a bit of Salvia or MJ will scrub them out nicely.
-> QUESTION: Basically, I have understood what has to be done here. But where exactly is the n,n-DMT now at the end and in which state or in which purity?
1. in the coffee filter after it has dried - is this where I find the crystals?
2. in the naptha when I let it evaporate after it has gone through the coffee filter?
3. in the residues in the glass which I remove with a rubber spatula?
Which substance is exactly what and how do I proceed with each of the 3?
10. (There used to be another step here in the original Noman's Tek, the infamous 'ammonia wash', but it was removed with the consent of Noman, since it caused many problems of loss of yield and its a very innefective way of cleaning. DO NOT DO THE AMMONIA WASH. If one wants to clean the crystals (specially if some of the lye/bark solution came across accidentally when separating the solvent), what one can do is a sodium carbonate wash. This is done by redissolving the crystals in naphtha. Then separately, make a solution of water with a bit of sodium carbonate (no need to be accurate, just a pinch of sodium carbonate to, say, 50ml water). Then mix the sodium carbonate solution with the solvent containing the dmt, separate, discarding the water, and freeze the solvent. Voilá
-> QUESTION: I understand this step as not absolutely necessary, or only if you want to further refine some substances. I also read here that the ammonia mentioned in the materials list at the beginning is not needed. Why is it then still in the material list?
So, that’s it. All my questions I need to clarify before I want to start. I hope this is the right place for that and i hope that someone can help me with this.
All the best and peace!
EDIT: I just read the Lazyman's tek and found it to be even more easier and less prone to possible errors since you can completely skip the freezer and filtering process. Also it reminds me of the "QWISO" isopropyl concentrate extraction i have done already that is used to remove the cannabinoid-rich trichomes from cannabis flowers. Furthermore the article keeps mentioning how good the yield is supposed to be. Are there any comparisons to the Nomans Tek in terms of yield and difficulty and purity? One thing is also contradictory for me, with Nomans Tek it is said NOT to let the naptha evaporate by using e.g. a fan, because you worsen the result or make it n,n-DMT oxide, with the Lazyman Tek you are supposed to do exactly that? How does this fit together? What do you recommend as a first time extraction (keep in mind that i have 100gr MHRB powdered)?
downwardsfromzero
Boundary condition
Hello and welcome, noonessake!
wiki.dmt-nexus.me
"Place a glass container with the DMT and a glass container of the recrystallization solvent together in a pan of hot water. Shot glasses in a saucepan work well for a gram or two. The fumes from whatever solvent you use will be extremely flammable, so don’t use a gas stove or light a bowl or be otherwise stupid. The DMT will already be melting if the water is hot enough. Add the hot solvent little by little (eye-dropper), agitating until all of the DMT is dissolved. Use as little solvent as possible. It should take only about 20–30mL of solvent per gram of powder. The solvent will be a clear yellow."
If you can get one, a Pasteur pipette will also more than suffice.
There are other ways of collecting the crystals from the jars besides using a rubber spatula. Ideally, you would have large crystals which stick to the walls of the jars. In that case, after draining off the naphtha you can replace the lids on the jars and put them back into the freezer upside down so that the naphtha remnants drain off into the lid. [Place your jars on a tray if you don't trust the lids.]
Free-floating DMT crystals would become caught in the coffee filter - but if there are no free-floating crystals then you can do without the filter entirely.
One more thing to bear in mind - yellow DMT is not necessarily bad because one of the crystalline forms of it is in fact yellow.
There is, in truth, no optimal extraction procedure - you choose the one that best suits your personal circumstances and preferences. Also, be sure to read the remarks at the end of the Noman's tek page.
You don't need it, but you could still use it. I'd save it for harmala extraction though.noonessake said:
Only if you live in an area with exceptionally hard water.
Yes, that sounds ideal.
There is a wide range of petroleum distillates that you can use and they have a variety of names depending on your country of residence, and both the derivation and intended usage of the solvent. What you describe sounds OK but the upper boiling range value suggests you'd be best checking that it evaporates cleanly and quickly enough. You might want to find a lighter solvent should you decided to do the recrystallisation.
Noman's tek - DMT-Nexus Wiki
If you can get one, a Pasteur pipette will also more than suffice.
Yes, but you might be better off starting with 50g bark and keep the extraction correspondingly smaller at first. This makes it easier to handle and reduces your potential losses in the case of mishaps. It's also far more likely that you'll have a suitably sized (1L) jug or or other container for a 50g extraction. Finding something suitable in the 2L capacity range is much less commonplace. And at the precipitation stage, a lesser volume will also fit into your freezer more easily.
The rolling is a quality of action. Hold the top and the bottom of the jar and make a rolling action with your hands as though you were gently pedalling a bicycle. The naphtha will "roll" over the base soup - the idea is to get as much surface-to-surface contact as possible between the aqueous phase and the non-polar phase without breaking either of them into smaller droplets.
Let it stand long enough that the naphtha separates as a clear layer atop the base soup and any creamy-looking emulsion between the layers has dispersed. You will have to just wait and see. It may be worth having a torch handy for this stage so that you can visualise the different layers more easily with back- or side-lighting.
The last pull is left in the jar a while longer (if you can be bothered) and then the naphtha is taken off and put into the freezer just like all the others.
If you decide to let the last pull wait - and, most importantly, you have somewhere where it can be left safely and securely until you have time to remove the final pull - then deal with it the following morning or evening, or the day after. Just make sure you do it soon enough as you don't want it sitting around indefinitely!
Take a look through some of the other threads here, where you'll see what DMT crystals tend to look like. If you have followed the procedures correctly (which isn't difficult, IMO) the precipitate should be exclusively DMT. Practically all of the DMT should have precipitated out of the naphtha if your freezer is cold enough (-8°C or lower should suffice - get a fridge/freezer thermometer to check).
There are other ways of collecting the crystals from the jars besides using a rubber spatula. Ideally, you would have large crystals which stick to the walls of the jars. In that case, after draining off the naphtha you can replace the lids on the jars and put them back into the freezer upside down so that the naphtha remnants drain off into the lid. [Place your jars on a tray if you don't trust the lids.]
Free-floating DMT crystals would become caught in the coffee filter - but if there are no free-floating crystals then you can do without the filter entirely.
Historical reasons presumably. That way, if anyone wonders whether they might be able to improve the product by washing with ammonia they'll know alrready not to bother.
One more thing to bear in mind - yellow DMT is not necessarily bad because one of the crystalline forms of it is in fact yellow.
I'm a fan of freeze precipitation. Evaporating the solvent is rather wasteful, and gives a less pure product. DMT-N-oxide is not actually formed when evaporating but it does appear to increase the formation of oligomers/polymers which are a different type of oxidation product.
There is, in truth, no optimal extraction procedure - you choose the one that best suits your personal circumstances and preferences. Also, be sure to read the remarks at the end of the Noman's tek page.
noonessake
Rising Star
downwardsfromzero said:
Hello downwardsfromzero, nice to be here, and thanks for your detailed answer!
Last time i checked it, the ph was about 8.downwardsfromzero said:
Yep, there are way to many out there, and to be honest, this is the hardest struggle i'm dealing with, to get the right naptha. I will check first how it evaporates - clean and quick is what i want. Okay! Maybe someone got a hint for some good naptha.downwardsfromzero said:
Sounds good. I will start with 50gr. I have also read the Remarks and changed the quantities regarding the advices by Entropmancer and the extraction made by swim and considering that i have powdered MHRB which changes the quantities as follows:downwardsfromzero said:
MHRB - 50gr
Water- 750mL
Lye - 75gr
Naptha - 30mL Per naptha round / 6 naptha rounds all together = 180mL
-> I don't know if this amount is enough to get a naptha layer in my vessels that I can skim off without problems since the mixture vessel will be larger (750mL + 50gr MHRB + Lye + Naptha). I will simulate this beforehand in an empty glass and see how "high" 30mL are in the end in the glass and how I can skim it off.
That was helpful, now i have a better understanding about how it can look and why. I think i will get more familiar when i have my own extract ready.downwardsfromzero said:
I think i will start with the Nomans Tek. This is what I have been most concerned with and have worked through mentally, and I know most of the steps from other extractions. Only working with naptha is new.downwardsfromzero said:
I have read it and like i mentioned before, i have changed my receipt a lil bit:downwardsfromzero said:
This seems like a MIXED MASH of the whole method. He uses the original anmount of water but rises the lye and decreases the naptha per round but making more rounds. I now have adapted this quantities for my first try. I think i have enough jars to do at least 6 rounds of naptha agitation.
Again, thank you for clearing things up and if i have a thinking error in my planning - let me know!
noonessake
Rising Star
Hello again,
I did some more research and I think I found the right "naptha", namely petroleum ether 40/60, also known as sore gasoline or light gasoline. Lets hope that this is it ...
Likewise, I have discovered the YT video by Chris Cantelmo (RIP), and find his method also not bad - it reminds me by the boil in vinegar very much to the Harmala extraction. Also, he does not really adhere to exact quantities as far as the "ingredients" are concerned. Does anyone have an opinion, experience with this method?
Video: Click for YT Vid
I would currently proceed as follows:
1. 50gr MHRB in 500mL (or better 750mL?) water & 25mL vinegar (25%) mixture simmer for 3 hrs.
2. After 3 hours transfer the mixture into a 1L glass container.
3. Slowly add about 75gr Lye until the mixture is black.
4. Let the mixture rest for a short time, stirring occasionally.
5. Add 40ml Naptha.
6. Put the vessel with the mixture into a pot with warm water to support the reaction with the Naptha (50° should be optimal i found somewhere), swirl it slightly, let it stand, swirl it again, repeat for about 4 times.
7. Let the vessel rest until the Naptha has settled as a top layer.
8. Skim the Naptha and put it into a glass container (rectangular, flat to make it easier to remove the crystals at the end).
9. Put the container with the skimmed Naptha in the freezer overnight.
10. Repeat steps 5 - 9 four times.
Does this make sense?
Thanks!
Also I hope this okay to post right after my last post, if not please merge my posts - thanks!
I did some more research and I think I found the right "naptha", namely petroleum ether 40/60, also known as sore gasoline or light gasoline. Lets hope that this is it
... Likewise, I have discovered the YT video by Chris Cantelmo (RIP), and find his method also not bad - it reminds me by the boil in vinegar very much to the Harmala extraction. Also, he does not really adhere to exact quantities as far as the "ingredients" are concerned. Does anyone have an opinion, experience with this method?
Video: Click for YT Vid
I would currently proceed as follows:
1. 50gr MHRB in 500mL (or better 750mL?) water & 25mL vinegar (25%) mixture simmer for 3 hrs.
2. After 3 hours transfer the mixture into a 1L glass container.
3. Slowly add about 75gr Lye until the mixture is black.
4. Let the mixture rest for a short time, stirring occasionally.
5. Add 40ml Naptha.
6. Put the vessel with the mixture into a pot with warm water to support the reaction with the Naptha (50° should be optimal i found somewhere), swirl it slightly, let it stand, swirl it again, repeat for about 4 times.
7. Let the vessel rest until the Naptha has settled as a top layer.
8. Skim the Naptha and put it into a glass container (rectangular, flat to make it easier to remove the crystals at the end).
9. Put the container with the skimmed Naptha in the freezer overnight.
10. Repeat steps 5 - 9 four times.
Does this make sense?
Thanks!
Also I hope this okay to post right after my last post, if not please merge my posts - thanks!
downwardsfromzero
Boundary condition
You may (well, you will) find that your Wundbenzin evaporates inconveniently quickly. Waschbenzin is less volatile and evaporates cleanly [but it's still best to check first] even if you're substituting a technical grade solvent for the pharmaceutical grade that you appear to prefer. Having the base liquid at 50°C when adding 40/60 naphtha will cause a large portion of the naphtha to boil immediately and the resulting vapour cloud could be quite dangerous.
You can keep the Wundbenzin for recrystallisations though.
One disadvantage of vinegar is that it makes the house stink so you could use something like citric or ascorbic acid instead. And MHRB is slightly acidic anyhow...
When it comes to skimming or otherwise separating the naphtha it's good practice to use an intermediate vessel such as a borosilicate glass jug just in case you accidentally pick up a few drops of base soup with the naphtha. And don't worry about getting all the naphtha after each pull - the remnants will simply end up in the next pull and practically nothing is lost.
And your posting etiquette is just fine. It's good to see your thoughtful and well-explained approach.
You can keep the Wundbenzin for recrystallisations though.
One disadvantage of vinegar is that it makes the house stink so you could use something like citric or ascorbic acid instead. And MHRB is slightly acidic anyhow...
When it comes to skimming or otherwise separating the naphtha it's good practice to use an intermediate vessel such as a borosilicate glass jug just in case you accidentally pick up a few drops of base soup with the naphtha. And don't worry about getting all the naphtha after each pull - the remnants will simply end up in the next pull and practically nothing is lost.
And your posting etiquette is just fine. It's good to see your thoughtful and well-explained approach.
Bemerty
Rising Star
I'm a bit of a newb here, but I've tried and failed at one extraction before.
I've been looking at the tek found here:
psychonautwiki.org
But I've just read something concerning on these forums.
The recipe says you should boil before PHing, sure, but it also says that you should bring it back close to boiling once fully PHed up, naphtha included (although in a pan of water off the direct heat).
The thing I read elsewhere on the forum says that it's not only dangerous to heat up lye water, but also that you're turning your goodness from a salt, that can stand the heat, to a FB, which can't.
Should I follow this tech, but just keep it cold at the lye stage, or am I following a bad tek?
I've been looking at the tek found here:
DMT extraction using lye (sodium hydroxide) and naphtha
Crystallized DMT can be obtained from its natural plant sources using a number of chemistry extraction techniques. This article documents the procedure for one of the most common DMT methods, known as the acid-base (A/B) extraction.
psychonautwiki.org
But I've just read something concerning on these forums.
The recipe says you should boil before PHing, sure, but it also says that you should bring it back close to boiling once fully PHed up, naphtha included (although in a pan of water off the direct heat).
The thing I read elsewhere on the forum says that it's not only dangerous to heat up lye water, but also that you're turning your goodness from a salt, that can stand the heat, to a FB, which can't.
Should I follow this tech, but just keep it cold at the lye stage, or am I following a bad tek?