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~Phalaris = The Way Of The Future~

Migrated topic.
..live Phalaris aquatica AQ1 was purchased 2 months ago from a supplier by a friend, and has gone from one 4cm tub to five 15cm pots in that time..having grown a few varieties of aquatica, i can attest that AQ1 is one of the more vigorous strains, given a little attention..it would be easy to grow up a kilo of grass clippings ( = 10 grams DMT) in a few months starting with one small root division..my friend will be test extracting it in a couple of months..
be good to work out endlessness' mystery caffine finding..i don't understand where the contamination could have come from..

a couple of other Phalaris species from the mediterranean and north africa i thought worth mentioning are:

Phalaris canariensis - i read somewhere (J. Appleseed perhaps) that the seeds were high in tryptamines..there was an E.R. reference to "psychedelic birdseed" mentioning it..Festi & Samorini (1994) found in the plant DMT as the major alkaloid, with 5meoDMT and trace bufotenine..
Phalaris coerulensis - while Festi and Samorini found DMT as the major alkaloid with trace bufotenine, others found 2-methyl-THBC, 2-methyl-pinoline, DMT, coerulescine (a new oxindole) and horsfiline (an oxindole seen in Horsfieldia spp. ) [see S. Voogelbreinder 2009; Anderton et al 1986]

i thought it would be good to take these other (very interesting) alkaloids into account when doing GCMS or TLC on unknown strains..
.

P. canariensis seed is commonly sold as birdseed, and P. cooerulensis is known as Blue Canary Grass..
 

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More interesting news:

Limonene pulls and vinegar saltings are very selective to DMT and do NOT pull hordenine nor gramine (they do pull gramine but only in trace amounts)

The Yugo red phalaris, which previously with pure methanol soak showed to have a ratio of 2.1: 90.3: 65.2 of DMT:Hordenine:Gramine, when done an acqueous basic solution with sodium carb, pulled with limonene, salted with vinegar and made paste of acetates with sodium carb (and pulled with alcohol to analyze), showed to instead, have a ratio of 67:0(undetected):1 of DMT:Hordenine:Gramine.

Here's the comparison of both TIC:

Yugoredlimovsmethanol.jpg


When doing the same kind of limo extract from Big Medicine, which had a significant amount of hordenine (though no gramine), again it only showed with mostly DMT but no hordenine at all, so hordenine is even less soluble in limo.

In any case early next year I should be getting some gramine and hordenine standards to check with pure substances for solubility.


By the way, I re-ran the yugo red sample to check for that supposed caffeine contamination, and it still showed the same substance (though in different ratios than before, quite smaller amount! So it was not contamination from my part at least, either there is caffeine in phalaris, which would be absurd, or it has some substance of similar structure, or dreamer was brewing coffee together with his phalaris growth and it contaminated the plant samples before he sent me or something)
 
Endlessness,

That looks like good news: Easy separation of DMT without the gramine or hordenine by simply using limonene. It looks like you are on your way to helping me make use of my back yard full of weeds (some is phalaris) for something good.

Rivea
 
Thanks, glad to help :)

Dozuki, the problem with the big medicine is that I only had a small amount of it left, it ended up being too diluted so the resolution on the GC-MS is very poor, I cant really see if the 2MTHBC is there (I guess thats the one you mean right?)

The issue is that I am wondering if this 2MTHBC might be an artefact from analyzing DMT in general because it's showed up at least in trace amounts in basically all the DMT samples i've analyzed so far.... Would be good to have a DMT standard, and a 2MTHBC standard, but this will not be happening so soon, got other priorities (and 2MTHBC is very expensive to buy, only available from few suppliers that do not have it in stock, have to synth after you order).

Anyways Ill keep posting any further developments of this, once I get the gramine/hordenine standards or if other phalaris extracts are tested. By the way in case you wondered, the other peaks in the limo extract are fatty acids.

Oh and one correction, at first it was not sodium carb paste and then limo pull, it was an acqueous extraction with limonene, using sodium carb as a base. I didnt measure the pH but I used a lot of sodium carb, I would guess near saturating the solution.

InMotion, I agree, a simple recrystallization or re-a/b would most likely significantly diminish that peak from small amount (around 1%) to insignificant.
 
endlessness said:
an acqueous basic solution with sodium carb, pulled with limonene, salted with vinegar and made paste of acetates with sodium carb (and pulled with alcohol to analyze), showed to instead, have a ratio of 67:0(undetected):1 of DMT:Hordenine:Gramine.
Click to expand...

WOW
my guess too is you probably did it
you found the solution (=limo solution)
well done in advance
:)
 
Personally I already consider the gramine peak to be "in the grass" and negligible.

As far as I'm concerned if this is repeated it's a done deal and we have a aorking extraction tek for
phalaris.

Good job to everyone that spend time working on this!
 
endlessness said:
I cant really see if the 2MTHBC is there (I guess thats the one you mean right?)
Click to expand...

Yup, that is the one. I will be interested to see if they come through on future extractions (beta-carbolines) as they are definitely a component of P. arundinecea. I've been looking around and found some interesting stuff regarding:

"The Pictet-Spengler reaction has been established as a general and reliable method for the conversion of tryptamines to 1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-beta-carbolines."

If this reaction does indeed work on DMT and 5-MeO (scant information tends to lean that way) it might be a less expensive route to 2-Me-THBC and 6-MeO-THBC as standards if needed. Seems that one of the methods of this reaction uses formaldehyde with an acid catalyst to accomplish the ring closure.

Also can you give a quick rundown on the extraction process that you used from the top? Curious if the material was dry, defats, etc.

Thanks,

-D.
 
Dozuki said:
"The Pictet-Spengler reaction has been established as a general and reliable method for the conversion of tryptamines to 1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-beta-carbolines."

If this reaction does indeed work on DMT and 5-MeO (scant information tends to lean that way) it might be a less expensive route to 2-Me-THBC and 6-MeO-THBC as standards if needed. Seems that one of the methods of this reaction uses formaldehyde with an acid catalyst to accomplish the ring closure.
Click to expand...


Picket-Spengler ring closure is more likely on a primary amine like tryptamine, it will not occur with a tertiary amine like dmt or 5-MeO. With tertiary amines the nitrogen atom is already saturated with two methyl groups, so there is no position for the formaldhyde to condense with the amine and thus an imine is not formed. It is the imine which actually undergoes cyclization. There is a paper on the subject, I'll try and dig it up and post it.

VERY EXCITING WORKS GUYS!!! Yahoo - you should be very proud.
 
Thanks for the info Dr_Sister, would love to see that paper.

From the info that I've gathered these seems to be the pathways:

Tryptamine -> THBC
MMT -> 2MeTHBC
DMT -> DMT Oxide -> MMT -> 2MeTHBC

The 6MeOBC's follow similar pathways starting with the 5MeO tryptamines, with the MeO group in the same place, different numbering schemes for the BCs and the tryptamines.
 

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I have a bag of brachystachys seeds.. got a couple years ago, dont know of they are still viable, but will be sowing them soon and may be able to test out an extraction later this year.

Thanks for all the research people! Great stuff.
 
..look forward to the report jamie..my friend's AQ1 ready for first pruning..they will collect a few re-growth clippings and combine..

..i thought the following paper (if you can get the full text) might be helpful for your work endlessness
Phytochemistry Volume 16, Issue 6, 1977, Pages 749–752
"Further characterization and quantitative determination of 5-methoxy-N-methyltryptamine in Phalaris arundinacea"
Walter Majaka, Robert J. Boseb

Abstract
The 100 MHz PMR spectrum of 5-methoxy-N-methyltryptamine (5MMT) isolated from Phalaris arundinacea is elucidated, acid-induced fluorescence characteristics of 5-methoxy- and 5-hydroxytryptamine alkaloids on Avicel and silica gel TLC are described, and the concentration of 5MMT in P. arundinacea is determined by fluorometric TLC scanning.
Click to expand...
 
..endlessness wrote [#144]:
Limonene pulls and vinegar saltings are very selective to DMT and do NOT pull hordenine nor gramine (they do pull gramine but only in trace amounts)
Click to expand...
..i'm wondering if you could write up the details of the method here, or as a tech?
this seems to be the most solid Phalaris DMT-tek we have so far..thanks endlessness..here's your GCMS again..
 

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