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~Phalaris = The Way Of The Future~

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nen888 said:
Parshvik Chintan said:
wait, so what causes the ammonia overload in sheep?
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..an unknown compound which is not an alkaloid which is only in some Phalaris which is thought to come from a parasitic micro-organism or fungus living on the grass..the ammonia is ingested via diet (kilos of pasture a day!), the unknown compound causes it to build up over time..it's a long term/large amount feeding problem..
remember, there are more deaths per year from animals being poisoned by infested Rye grass than Phalaris..but i don't here many entheogen heads warning us not to eat Rye!..:)
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so would this mean it would be safe to use as a mushroom substrate?
 
I wonder if it is easy to find seeds of strains like phalaris big medecine or phalaris aq1,nen888 intersting supposition about the kikeon...
 
basilic said:
I wonder if it is easy to find seeds of strains like phalaris big medecine or phalaris aq1
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actually yes, but the alkaloid profile would be so vastly different that it would hardly make difference.

either get a clone of one of those strains, or just get seeds from anywhere.
 
i cant believe this thread has been innactive for over 2 months?!?!!

just some quick questions that i have after reading the whole thread, to sum up some things that were widely talked about.

which phalaris would be best, brachystachys, AQ1 or big medecine for extraction of dmt.
since we are less worried about gramine and hordenine, maybe the best way to answere that is with info on which has the highest % of dmt, and the lowest of 5meo-dmt. if they cannot be easily seperated.

and why do people say not to order seeds of a strain, but rather a clone?

and finaly, has anybody on the nexus succesfuly extracted any of the phalaris strains and produced a product on par with a mimosa extraction.
 
closet-chemist1010 said:
i cant believe this thread has been innactive for over 2 months?!?!!
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..i haven't been able to put any time into growing up my AQ1s..so busy..better prioritise..if i put a little attention in they'll be LOTS in a few months..unless someone has more detailed analysis info of other strains, AFAIK AQ1, at 1% mainly DMT, is a very good strain..
and why do people say not to order seeds of a strain, but rather a clone?
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..because from seed they can throw out various genotypes..each species of Phalaris has around 12 or more chemotypes..some with more DMT, others with other alkaloids..by cloning (root division) one can be sure that the same chemical profile is maintained..
and finaly, has anybody on the nexus succesfuly extracted any of the phalaris strains and produced a product on par with a mimosa extraction.
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..the pioneering fourthripley posted the image attached below and a pdf on getting crystals from brachyastachys in this thread..
below fourthripley's phalaris crystal..
 

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thanks nen, so do we have a source for clones of a geno type which is a known good dmt producer?

i know nothing of root division and will have to research. I think this thread really needs to take off as i have tried searching for MRHB for the last week and found nothing in canada that doesnt seem really sketch online :( if i didnt live in an apartment atm i would be growing Aq1 right now!!
 
"..because from seed they can throw out various genotypes..each species of Phalaris has around 12 or more chemotypes..some with more DMT, others with other alkaloids..by cloning (root division) one can be sure that the same chemical profile is maintained.."

I thought aquatica var aus could be grown out from seed though and it would still retain the genetics? Everyone seems to just sell the seed for the aus var and that is what I was planning on getting from herbalistics..should I not do that?
 
..i think Phalaris aquatica is a generally less variable plant than arundinacea or brachyastachys..but there's still a little variation..in experience var. australia is generally a fairly clean 0.3-0.6% dmt content, often a yellow oil..whereas the cuttings of AQ1 (harder to find) were clones of the actual plants in Italy tested by Giorgio Samorini..

..so, somewhere in Italy is where this particularly good strain and it's discoverer are..

var. australia is perfectly good..i'd generally recommend P. aquatica as a good starting point for phalaris experimentation..
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hey nexus!

so i read over the succesful tek, looks like his yeilds are in the 0.1% area
while i think the tek is great, having that much grass around the house, the long extraction process, and the product being tainted with 5meo, not to mention yields that are 1/10 of mhrb, im not sure if this is worth it for me :(

i really hope i can find some real Aq1 and also really hope its content is actually near the 1% area, as this would make this procedure 10 times more valuable, literally.

can anybody comment on how many sq.ft would be necessary to harvest about a kilo? with supplemental t5's or Compact flourescents for lighting, and a light/cheap nutrient regime?

this way my grass could be ornamental or decorative, and do maybe one extract per year :p
 
"so i read over the succesful tek, looks like his yeilds are in the 0.1% area"

If you are referring to the tek fourthripley uses I am going to give my opinion..it is not a good tek for getting full yields. Just from my experience with phalaris and from what other have said who worked with it in the past..there is alkaloids that get sort of caught up in the fats..

..so that layer of stuff on the surface of the water that he is skimming off...I am just going to guess there is tryptamines also being thrown away there. The yields claimed in that tek also dont line up with any of the old data, which makes me feel even stronger that tryptamines are being thrown away in that extraction. .1% is much lower than what all the old sources say.

You can simply boil the grass into a tea, filter out the grass and then evaporate the tea to a resin..then mix in a bunch of base and let that dry..then pull that with a np solvent and I bet yields will be higher. There are also ways to clean the solvent of extra oils and stuff before you salt it or freeze precip if you are worried about that.

I am also not convinced that simply juicing the grass is going to get it all out in the first place..which is what a lot of old teks are based on.
 
..a clone of true AQ1, or big medicine, should be high yielding..

..Phalaris is, in modern usage terms, like Cannabis was prior to the 60s-70s..variable and not widely selected into specific high-potency strains..the more people selected and interbred different kinds of cannabis, the more consistently high thc strains became available..

also, even if yields are lower, Phalaris is much faster to grow than say Mimosas or Acacias..and, because of easy root division, once one has one plant with a little focused growing can end up with many..not so easy with most other kinds of dmt plant (p. viridis is leaf-cutting reproducible, but needs warmer conditions and is 0.3%)
..Phalaris calls out for intelligent attention..
.
 
jamie said:
"so i read over the succesful tek, looks like his yeilds are in the 0.1% area"

If you are referring to the tek fourthripley uses I am going to give my opinion..it is not a good tek for getting full yields. Just from my experience with phalaris and from what other have said who worked with it in the past..there is alkaloids that get sort of caught up in the fats..

..so that layer of stuff on the surface of the water that he is skimming off...I am just going to guess there is tryptamines also being thrown away there.
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Hmm, well that was what I thought of when starting out with it. However, A/B on the sludge yielded very little, what I would expect as a 'mechanical' loss. Unless alkaloids are some how caught in there by some, as yet unknown, mechanism. The 10 minutes of boiling and high ph shouldn't hurt alkaloids; indeed I tried the tek at ph 10 with DCM just to establish that yields weren't being hurt by ph.
Standard A/B's from homogenised juice- with defats- yield less than this tek with my plant material and A/B on the spent plant pulp( lest there be alks. left there) again yielded nothing of note.
 
Of course it could just be that the strain I'm working with isn't one of the very high yielding ones. As per the thread in the garden, I have two rather different strains reliably identified as Brachystacys, the large seed variety apparently very low in alkaloids. I wonder how many sub-strains exist?
 
..of P. brachyastachys i do not have the data on how many strains exist..P. aquatica i've seen listings of 16 different cultivars..
but i'm fairly certain neither of these species is anything like as variable as P. arundinacea which is one of the most genetically varying plants on the planet..
Brodersen, Lavergne & Molofsky (2007) put the number of identified P. arundinacea genotypes at 210 ! Department of Plant Biology
Simons and Marten (1971) found for arundinacea
Either gramine or 5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine (5-MeO-DMT) + N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT) were the primary alkaloids in all genotypes.

Alkaloid concentrations in the 18 clones ranged frown 0.18% to 1.21% of the dry matter and were similar between years
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..there seems to be a higher chance of finding DMT as the main alkaloid in P. aquatica out of phalaris species..
..a note on Alkaloid levels, though..
Ball and Hoveland (1988 Agronomy Journal) found, for P. aquatica:
The order of alkaloid concentration in aerial portions of individual plants of two genotypes was: upper one-half of leaves and leaf sheaths and stems.
Drought stress caused greater alkaloid increases both in field and environmental chamber studies than did any other factor.
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..a reminder, though, that phalaris toxicity in animals is no longer associated with alkaloids..
 
I´ve just red the wikipedia page about gramine that says that it´s insoluble in water, while dmt-n-oxide is. What´s about decomposing the contained n,n-dmt to -n-oxide, washing that out with water, make it basic and add zink to get n,n-dmt again? Other freebase alks are often also less solouble in water, so someone could use less and less water to get the dmt out the crude extract?
 
I'm going to step in and as a pretty basic question, as I've read through the thread and a lot of the higher-level chemistry stuff is somewhat beyond me. I want to see if I'm understanding all of this correctly.

If you absolutely had to get rid of gramine and could only use Phalaris:

Take the Phalaris grass, do an A/B Tek, and then dissolve the resulting crystals in naptha. Run the naptha through a filter (like a coffee filter?). The leftover solids will be gramine, the naptha will contain pure DMT (also 5-Meo-DMT?), which you can freeze-precipitate out like normal.

For those of us who like to keep it food-safe in our kitchens, are there any other nonpolars that gramine is insoluble in that DMT and 5-Meo-DMT ARE soluble in?
Or the opposite. That would also work.

Cheers
~ND
 
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