~Phalaris = The Way Of The Future~

[Iglepiggle666]

Hey Sidisheikh, what is the TLC protocol you are using? Specifically, how many grams of what (grass blade or tips? regrowth?) are you using for TLC? And are you doing a mini extraction first or just soaking the blades in methanol after a freeze/thaw cycle or blender?

I ask because I have many of my own Phalaris Aquatica currently growing and am now looking to perform TLC on them. Will be doing TLC on 2nd regrowth of transplanted wild aquatica that has been sitting in my garage for 1 week devoid of water and sunlight.

A grain of sand worth of product from first pull on 280g dry aquatica blades gathered during anthesis (peak summer here atm) and then subjected to TLC gave no results. Previous TLC analysis on acacia longifolia gave reproducible spots adjacent to the known caffeine spot, no spots where DMT would be (.64) caffeine ratio, so at least I am doing TLC right. I know that Endlessness recommends ~5mg of product for testing, but how many grams of grass blades would you recommend for DMT to show up on TLC following either a methanol soak or mini A/B. Currently have no DMT baseline but am getting some (only 50mg) soon (should I dissolve, say, 5mg of this in ~1ml methanol for TLC?).

 

[neurobloom]

Hey Sidisheikh, what is the TLC protocol you are using? Specifically, how many grams of what (grass blade or tips? regrowth?) are you using for TLC? And are you doing a mini extraction first or just soaking the blades in methanol after a freeze/thaw cycle or blender?

I ask because I have many of my own Phalaris Aquatica currently growing and am now looking to perform TLC on them. Will be doing TLC on 2nd regrowth of transplanted wild aquatica that has been sitting in my garage for 1 week devoid of water and sunlight.

A grain of sand worth of product from first pull on 280g dry aquatica blades gathered during anthesis (peak summer here atm) and then subjected to TLC gave no results. Previous TLC analysis on acacia longifolia gave results that could be interpreted as gramine, no spots of DMT, so at least I am doing TLC right. I know that Endlessness recommends ~5mg of product for testing, but how many grams of grass blades would you recommend for DMT to show up on TLC following either a methanol soak or mini A/B. Currently have no DMT baseline but am getting some (only 50mg) soon (should I dissolve, say, 5mg of this in ~1ml methanol for TLC?).

Hello there
We started with 10mg and 5mg dry leaves. They were boiled in 1% acetic acid. The resulting tea was based with sodium carbonate and pulled with DCM. The DCM fraction evaporated and washed with methanol with ammonia. I forgot the exact measurements but I think I wrote them in previous posts in this thread

 

[Iglepiggle666]

10mg and 5mg dry... thanks for that info. And you will be quantifying using TLC I presume? And selecting plants and breeding from there.

10mg isn't much, I could take samples from patches of wild phalaris for quantification. Do you know (roughly) the concentration of dmt/5meo you used as your reference spot?

 

[neurobloom]

I'm not the guy who is performing the TLC but a German friend of mine who is not a member on the Nexus.

He uses miniscule amount of DMT and 5-MEO-DMT for standards just enough to have a visible spot on the TLC.

TLC as a method is only semi-quantitative as it cannot tell you exactly how much product you have like LC-MS does. however the size and darkness of the spots can help give you a vague idea about how much of an alkaloid there is on the plate.

Luckily I have an active and good yielding strain that we will use was standard to compare with the other strains to pick out the most interesting ones for breeding.


I have sent you a pm.

 

[Iglepiggle666]

Page won't let me reply to your PM because I am a new member. That breeding program sounds fun and interesting. I'm keen to get involved.

Your active and good yielding strain – how many plants did you have to go through to find it?

 

[neurobloom]

The active aquatica i have is a local cultivar reported to be 98% true to seed.. genetically pretty stable in my experience both quality and yield wise. Most of my bioassay reports are on the thread (phalaris project) I have tried both clones and seedlings of this cultivar to both have delivered the same yield and alakloid profile.


I have over 50 clones covering 3m Square area. Keep posting and sharing and I'm sure your membership will be upgraded soon. Looking forward to collaborate with you.

 

[neurobloom]

Here's a summary of all seedlings TLC analysis so far. Please feel free to share your interpretations.


Personally I think the sardinian seedling (last spot on the first tlc plate) is the most interesting as it has the cleanest alkaloids profile (no tyranines whatsoever) seems like it only contains either DMT or 5-meo-dmt plus gramine at lower proportion.


Uruguay seedling (last spot on third TLC plate) is also very promising as it's also substantially clean profile and has a deep big sspot for DMT.

Blue fluorescence was observed on tlc plates with nndmt but not with 5meodmt when using 275nm led but this fluorescence vanishes as the eluent (meoh + nh3) evaporates.

 

[Iglepiggle666]

Italian strains 1, 2 and 3 look interesting as their alkaloid profiles are similar (dominant/stable chemotype) and clean. Are they the same due to high genetic stability or just selection based on lots of trial and error? Do we have any idea how common/rare a high yielding (say 0.5%) wild type Phalaris Aquatica is?
If wild high yielding strains were common, people would only need to sample a few local Phalaris plants, run quantitative TLC, then transplant and clone it at home. This way, people could have a consistent DMT source in about as little as 2 months.

Judging from the Phalaris project thread, it seems to be a good ayahuasca analogue so long as you find a clean strain, though the effects are most likely due to the activity of 5-meo. From what I have seen, extractions of random wild grasses seem to be hit and miss. Selection of a high yielding strain first seems necessary.

Regarding selection for a high yielding strain, take a look at the graph attached for an idea on how DMT concentration may change under selective breeding. Of course only a guide.

 

[neurobloom]

All seedlings sampled by tlc above are wild accessions brought from the internet. No breeding attempts have been made yet but is expected to start around February.

There are as many active high yielding wild strains as there are inactive/law yielding ones.. all kinds phenotypes exist and seem widely and randomly distributed throughout the native range of this species.

Selective breeding for higher tryptamine is so much easier than selecting for low tryptamine since it's the innate specie behaviour to produce these alakloids for defence. We found some variability within wild accessions not just amongst accessions. Cloning the strains of favourable traits and breeding them amongst each other will narrow down the generic pool in the direction we want..further selective breeding cycles will narrow it down even further so that less and less proportion of low alkaloid seedlings will emerge from a seed batch.

The larger number of wild accessions used in the breeding program the larger the starting genetic pool which will prove useful for future long term selective breeding. For other traits like vigorous growth.

Once a satisfactory yield And alkaloid ratio has been reached the next step would be to stabilize this hybrid to become a cultivar which can be achieved through back crossing this hybrid with an already established commercial cultivar like CV australis.

Even a single favourable mutation in a single seedling from a large field of a phenotype such as seed retention can be incorporated through breeding to become a dominant trait such is the case for the UNETA cultivar a line of CV australis.

I have already reached the 0.5% yield from my local commercial cultivar.. ans I didn't perform any breeding on it which I will do soon enough.

The literature on aquatica breeding is very plenty coursing through decades of documentation provided by CSIRO.

The most notable paper to read after AQ1 would be (the first century of phalaris aquatica breeding) by oram.

 

[neurobloom]

We're currently building an improvised HPLC and a UV spectrometer system to replace TLC. So far we've built and operated a crude prototype to get more acquainted with the principles of a chromatography column and UV detection. It kind of works but the signal quality still leaves much to be desired.

Quartz tubing has been ordered for the spectrometer flow cell and a high pressure pump is likely to be purchased as well to build higher resolution cappilary column.

Any suggestions where I can open such thread? Perhaps in advanced chemistry? Below I added some resources.

DIY Liquid Chromatography

Hi, my name is Dmitri and this blog is about my Arduino project.

waveandsignal.blogspot.com

Miniature Liquid Chromatography System - LabSmith

Trajan Scientific and Medical has announced the development of a miniature liquid chromatography system mainly aimed at online reaction monitoring.

labsmith.com

How to Make a Simple Capillary HPLC

Learn how to convert any HPLC into a capillary HPLC

www.ionsource.com

 

[Iglepiggle666]

Tlc on basic A/B extraction of 32g of 2nd regrowth of light and water stressed (2 weeks) wild type phalaris aquatica (notice the leaves beginning to turn yellow). 3x30min boils, combined, based, naptha added and heated, then left to sit overnight. Yielded approx 1-4mg from this first pull (.003-.01%). Even assuming I pulled as little as 50% from what is in there, it still would be as little as .025%.

The phalaris in my area are just coming out of anthesis, will just have to continue doing this on wild strains until I find a good one I guess.

KEY:
C=caffeine
P=phalaris grass
A=longifolia extraction
B=Acetic Acid

You can see a faint spot on P column for where DMT should be which is a good sign.

 

[neurobloom]

Hi there

Good effort. I don't think you need to make three 30 minutes boils that's a lot of work. I stopped even bothering with a second boil i just work with the first cooking for 1h. I just squeeze the leaves to get out the last remaining tea. I also use tap water boiled for 15 mins before adding leaves to break down the low concentration of bleach.

Sowe large enough plot (~400g per harvest) so you can worry less about extraction efficiency. 4 established clones or seedlings will produce that amount. A good strain should give you enough extract from 400g fresh for a bioassay and few TLC runs.

Good thing that the spot is close to the caffeine suggesting DMT or 5-meo-dmt. It seems strange though that there's no other major spots for the grass? I only see two very faint ones.

That leads us to the eluent. Which eluent have you used and in what proportions? We used ammonia (25%) in methanol.


I have some more promising TLC tests to post. Brachystachys has shown as good spots as aquatica.

 

[John.Doe]

Does anyone know of a supplier within the EU selling Phalaris aquatica/brachystachys (or any other active species) seeds or live plants? As far as I can tell it's illegal to ship seeds or live tissue of any grass into the EU, and I wouldn't want to have an order seized or worse have my plants ripped up by the govt.

 

[Transform]

Does anyone know of a supplier within the EU selling Phalaris aquatica/brachystachys (or any other active species) seeds or live plants? As far as I can tell it's illegal to ship seeds or live tissue of any grass into the EU, and I wouldn't want to have an order seized or worse have my plants ripped up by the govt.

Have you tried looking on STS?

Share The Seeds - Index

Share The Seeds - Index

sharetheseeds.me

 

[Anarchos]

hi folks

I looked into this a long time ago. i am surprised there are still people talking about smoking the dried grass juice.... A reminder that the alkaloids are not likely flowing in the plant fluids and you 'd need to freeze and thaw , and then freebase to get anything remotely smokeable....and the impurities will most likely prevent a real breakthrough experince.

Apologies if i'm preaching to the converted. My research into tryptamine biosynthesis in these plants led me to conclude that because of the genetics of grasses, there will never be seeds for a grass "strain" that produces only the alkaloid that you want. The only potentially worthwhile avenue is cloning individual plants. Since other, tried and tested plants are available that do not contain things like gramine, I abandoned the phalaris research, especially since i have no use for 5MeO.

It would be amazing if someone actually made available a dmt-only clone but seems like a pipe dream. The problem with phalaris is compounded by the difficulty of simple extraction (fun with emulsions) compared to tree barks, and the apparent need to use the grass while fresh to get worthwhile results...

 

[Transform]

hi folks

I looked into this a long time ago. i am surprised there are still people talking about smoking the dried grass juice.... A reminder that the alkaloids are not likely flowing in the plant fluids and you 'd need to freeze and thaw , and then freebase to get anything remotely smokeable....and the impurities will most likely prevent a real breakthrough experince.

Apologies if i'm preaching to the converted. My research into tryptamine biosynthesis in these plants led me to conclude that because of the genetics of grasses, there will never be seeds for a grass "strain" that produces only the alkaloid that you want. The only potentially worthwhile avenue is cloning individual plants. Since other, tried and tested plants are available that do not contain things like gramine, I abandoned the phalaris research, especially since i have no use for 5MeO.

It would be amazing if someone actually made available a dmt-only clone but seems like a pipe dream. The problem with phalaris is compounded by the difficulty of simple extraction (fun with emulsions) compared to tree barks, and the apparent need to use the grass while fresh to get worthwhile results...

It's a big thread we have here so I don't know how much of it you've read through, but several dedicated individuals have been reporting their results here in recent years, with some currently active research under way including TLC analysis.

Have a read through some of the posts on this page and maybe you'll be inspired to have another try - or do you have some other plants already keeping you busy enough?

 

[Anarchos]

I wouldn't try because the work is at least this involved, no matter how good your seeds are supposed to be:

1-germinate a bunch of seeds, each in a separate pot.

2-take clones of each plant, all kept separate and numbered.

3-grow all the clones on until you have enough biomass for an extraction for each phenotype.

4-get lucky and get pure alkaloid, then keep the specific clone and make more clones of it.

this is a lot of work and it would be awesome if someone pulled it through ...finally..

 

[neurobloom]

I wouldn't try because the work is at least this involved, no matter how good your seeds are supposed to be:

1-germinate a bunch of seeds, each in a separate pot.

2-take clones of each plant, all kept separate and numbered.

3-grow all the clones on until you have enough biomass for an extraction for each phenotype.

4-get lucky and get pure alkaloid, then keep the specific clone and make more clones of it.

this is a lot of work and it would be awesome if someone pulled it through ...finally..

Here's some food for thought. All local phalaris species Ive tried; brachystachys, truncate, aquatica, turned active except for canariensis....after giving canariensis a second try it yeilded some DMT smelling extract but amount was tiny to be worth smoking (from one single plant).

I haven't yet done any selective breeding and already found one strain of aquatics for 5-meo-dmt and one brachystachys strain for DMT from which I got crystals of nn with a decent yield. Then I harvested annother strain of brachys from a different location more recently and also got crystals which smelled of DMT.

Few days ago went on a trip north of the country looking for wild aquatica...collected 50g fresh material from which I got around 7mg extract which proved active and felt like 5m from perceived effects. I didn't have to go through many srains or locations...the very first strain proved active ...few years before that I acquired a commercial local cultivar of aquatica that I mainly work with nowadays and was quiet active and potent, also 5meo dominant.

I can't be that lucky am I?

 

[neurobloom]

I was on a bit of a hurry writing the last post but there's a lot more to digest.

So here are the main headlines for this season:

- The alkaloid profile has remained the same through the third year now consecutively for the local aquatica cultivar I'm working with. It still feels exactly like pure 5-meo-dmt. Over 20 people have tried it so far besides myself and the effects doesn't seem any different from smoked toad venom. This actually might prove the way forward to spare those poor toads until synthetic 5-meo-dmt becomes more accessible.

- The alkaloid profile of this cultivar is the exact same from seeds as It is from clones. Shade Vs full sunlight didn't make any difference on yield. Fertilization didn't seem to effect yield either. The older and the larger the plants got however the more dramatically yield has decreased so keep in mind to harvest your grass on schedule and don't leave it to grow large otherwise you will loose on yield and will have to spend extra time cooking and exciting effort. Neither you should apply perfect and complete fertilization regimen to slow down growth to prevent biomass dilution of the alkaloids. Yield increased back gradually once I started harvesting more often till it got back to the normal average I am used to.

Mixing DMT dominant phalaris brachystachys extract at ~20% proportion with aquatica extract substantially altered the perceived effects rendering the extract more visual and geometrical. It doesn't make any sense since the amount of DMT in one hit at 20% ratio with 5-meo-dmt shouldn't be enough to bring threshold effects but somehow it works...synergy might be the cause. Smoking aquatica extract alone using aluminum foil gave different new effects than when smoked in a joint as enhanced leaf. Vaporisation on aluminum foil gave superior qualities.

This aq cultivar was grown in a plot on highly saline soil and in semi arid environment watering it only at the seedlings stage. It proved to be salt and drought tolerant. So for those living in places like California and Texas or NSW Australia, you can still practically grow this cultivar successfully and sustainably with more extract than you need for your own personal use from 3m square.

I've previously talked a lot on the qualities of the smoked extract on the phalaris project thread but very little about after effects such as mental health benefits, what I perceived during these experiences and the take away lessons that left an impact on my daily life. After trying countless more hits from all ranges of dose spectrum I've come to understand and observe things I previously wasn't aware I experienced or rather wasn't yet able to digest in the past (experience navigation skills). Connection to nature, to God and to myself. Revelations about my path in life where am at and where I'm heading in life.

More recently on break through doses I discovered a new psychedelic state where my ego is fully gone and so far out there in the spiritual world yet still fully present in the moment physically seemingly sober even moving with better coordination than when am sober. It felt like I was present in the moment as a spirit. Felt invincible, extremely powerful yet in absolute conscious intelligent control of such power and with a deep sense of right and wrong and with noble intentions. Felt like I've finally met myself and it was so nice to finally meet me. If life and existence had a source code It was within my hands reach and I knew exactly what I need to do to succeed in my daily life like I was revealed a precise to do list. On the come down I felt so energetic in a very good sense I actually wanted to out that energy to test so i performed some push ups and done 55. Up to that point I didn't workout like at all for over one year and a half so that came as a surprise. When I reached the point of muscle failure and my arms are trembling, somehow I was still able to do more like I had high voltage running through my neurons firing up my muscles. I could have easily done more but on the come down I worried if the effort overload might have consequences on my heart so I stopped just in case. Definitely could have gone over to 60 reps hahaha and it felt so good. I had a determination and focus like no other...a power of will like I could achieve anything I wanted...almost like I as dreaming of being powerful but it was real.

I came to understand that these crude full spectrum extracts are the best medicine for the soul and mental health with long lasting effects. It basically treated my anxiety disorder and haven't had any panic attacks for I can no longer remember.. it's been that long. I have the testimony of many others with similar effects.

I tried drinking Syrian rue and smoking extract 20 minutes afterwards and effects were substantially stronger and requiring smaller dosage. Less psychological discomfort was perceived because of w smoother onset and peak progression but there was more strain on the cardiovascular system just like with oral extract with rue but to a lesser degree. These adverse health effects were non existent with lower end of dosage. It didn't matter if I drank AQ tea or smoked the extract after drinking rue, effects were the same mentally but smoking after rue was physically safer and it extended the experience to over 30 mins per smoked hit instead of 15 mins for low dose. High doses of extract without rue however lasted for over 30 mins.

I was also able for the first time to have a breakthrough from intranasal route. I just rubbed the enhanced leaf intended for smoking into my nose and left it there. This method proved better than using nasal spray as citric acid solution. The enhanced leaf being solid matter adhered better to the mucous membrane whereas nasal spray as liquid quickly leaked away from the mucous membrane necessitating a higher dose for compensation. Soaking a small cotton ball in citric acid solution of extract and using that sublingually also worked beautifully but again there was issues with the cotton ball adhering to the absorption area underneath the tongue there the highest concentration of blood vessels are located. Rectal route was just as efficient as intranasal. In conclusion beside smoking intranasal is the second best route and proved to be just as potent as smoking but with a delayed onset and longer duration (~45mins).

Yield ranged between 0.2% and 0.5% with highest yield coinciding with the first couple weeks of growth after break of dormancy. No defatting step is needed as extract based on dosage in relation to perceived effects seem like over 98% actives. Using sodium carbonate and sodium hydroxide as basing agent didn't make a difference at least when the NAOH concentration was minimal. Naco3 caused more emulsions but it separates on its own just takes longer. Naoh still sometime cause emulsions when not enough is added ...adding more naoh gradually separated the emulsion.

I tried brachystachys with rue as Ayahuasca analogue once again this month and it proved potent and beautiful. Also smoked brachys extract and perceived the standard DMT visual and mental effects as from a low dose. I could have got deeper into that DMT realm but I still suck at vaporising DMT. 5-meo-dmt from aquatica seems much easier to smoke and vape as it's more stable. I still prefer the 5m bbased aq over brachystachys and maybe I'm a 5-meo guy after all and I think it is the more spiritual and more healing of the two.

I mentioned in previous post going on an expedition recently north of the country within the same location from which my AQ cultivar came from and harvested wild AQ in the seedling stage. 50g fresh gave around 7mg and it felt almost similar to the cultivar in quality when smoked. I transplanted some of this phenotype in pots to collect seeds for future bioassays and TLC but it seems like where am from aquatica is mostly active with decent yield. I've yet to come across a DMT AQ strain but a friend of mine conducting TLC found a few promising strains for NN.

It's about time we start a phalaris aquatica breeding project thread and make the resulting cultivars an open source. Having participators from different parts of the world helps to keep the progress going non stop regardless of the timing of the year. It's already spring here in North Africa. Whereas in Europe spring is coming soon. In winter Australia will take up the torch and so on. We're currently working on a pdf file for TLC guide specific for phalaris analysis. HPLC analysis is facing some delays but should be available this year.

Commercial canarisis has finally proven by tlc to contain spice but we still not sure if it's 5m or nn. It's about time the Nexus develops its own cultivar and get passed turkey red, AQ1, Yugoslavian fresh, big medicine age as I'm starting to think these strains have probably perished. One week of daily use worth of extract from 400g fresh AQ has been achieved in my experiments so far. Who knows how far we could push the numbers with breeding but it's already a perfect medicine as it is.

We're also undergoing research on arudinacea and found one clean and consistent strain based on TLC but we've yet to bio-assay it, very likely by the end of this spring it will possible.

The thread title is progressively sounding more accurate!

 

[neurobloom]

I looked into this a long time ago. i am surprised there are still people talking about smoking the dried grass juice.... A reminder that the alkaloids are not likely flowing in the plant fluids and you 'd need to freeze and thaw , and then freebase to get anything remotely smokeable....and the impurities will most likely prevent a real breakthrough experince.

Actually around the end of last summer I have smoked dried 10 days old seedlings of aquatica fertilized with kelp extract and it was active as a joint. Smoke smelled like vaporised DMT.

It's really not as complicated as you might think. You just have to find the right strain.

It would be amazing if someone actually made available a dmt-only clone but seems like a pipe dream. The problem with phalaris is compounded by the difficulty of simple extraction (fun with emulsions) compared to tree barks, and the apparent need to use the grass while fresh to get worthwhile results...

We have isolated at least three wild accessions of aquatica that was found to contain mainly DMT through TLC. One of them was especially clean. I suggest you read up my last few posts on this thread for more details.

I have seen few reports on emulations with fresh leaves extractions but I haven't encountered this issue personally. Fats didn't seem as obstacle to me. At least not when using dichloromethane or chloroform for pulling. As detailed in my last post, no defatting step is required with grasses. Just give the basified tea a little time to react so most fats will saponify under high high alkaline conditions and it will precipitate as fine particles. This saponified sedimentation will still float on top of DCM and chloroform.


I'm happy to announce that phalaris breeding programme has finally kick-started we'll be posting the TLC results on that thread from now on. See you guys there.