RESPECT: Understanding the nature of todays drugs problems.

[SnozzleBerry]

-Cocaine is NOT naturally occuring, but is an extract from the coca leaf. Sure it exists in the coca leaf, but in tiny, unsnortable amounts and not effective unless mixed with lime or ashes, etc.

This line literally contradicts itself and shows precisely, the kind of self-contradictory statements/thoughts that your false-dichotomy of humans/nature creates.

 

[christian]

More's themes, Alpha 1,??- I don't know what you mean. These are my thoughts only.

I know it was a rather Utopian write up,

My bad. You referenced Utopian ideals and I didn't understand the connection.

- Yes, i already know what Utopia is, but didn't get to know about the man.

-That doesn't make my ideals any lesser Utopian, though:wink:

 

[christian]

-Cocaine is NOT naturally occuring, but is an extract from the coca leaf. Sure it exists in the coca leaf, but in tiny, unsnortable amounts and not effective unless mixed with lime or ashes, etc.

This line literally contradicts itself and shows precisely, the kind of self-contradictory statements/thoughts that your false-dichotomy of humans/nature creates.

-Sorry, my mistake, i meant COCAINE HYDROCHLORIDE, or regular sniffable cocaine- NOT freebase.:d

( when people talk about regular cocaine, they mean the regular snortable salt.)

 

[moz]

Our guilt is mostly focused on the western world and the perception that indigenous people are 'pure' is why we have the whole fetish for South America and Indians.

Adam Curtis made a brilliant blog about exactly that idea

Though I believe it's the reinforcing social rituals of indigenous people we westerners are fascinated with. Just like the less inquisitive westerners are fascinated with the latest iphone (and the apps) as a reinforcing social ritual. I'd also say that, from my over excessive rave days, that was a ritual. I think a lot of addiction results from that form of behavior, your mind picks apart the routine occurrences that directly precede the reward and you lose sight of all else.

Has no one here read Brave New World???!

 

[christian]

WOW, this thread is attracting all sorts of attention, and that is good. Especially if you guys get my drift. Which unfortunately you don't.

-My post is basically all about UNDERSTANDING and RESPECT of drugs, yet you failed to UNDERSTAND that simple fact. Please re read the last few lines of the post please. it's that simple.:roll:

-I do not fetishise the so called " purity " of indigenous people, because i have my own mind, and my own non drug ways of achieving alternative states of consciousness, like we all do. No doubts about that,8)

 

[moz]

My post was mostly for Elru as I think it is an interesting topic.

I don't believe morality can be inferred from structure-activity relationships. I could be wrong.

 

[ragabr]

-My post is basically all about UNDERSTANDING and RESPECT of drugs, yet you failed to UNDERSTAND that simple fact.

I feel like this is a pretty poor perspective to take.

The meaning of my communication is the response I get.

 

[christian]

-My post is basically all about UNDERSTANDING and RESPECT of drugs, yet you failed to UNDERSTAND that simple fact.

I feel like this is a pretty poor perspective to take.

The meaning ojavascript:insertsmiley(':lol:%20','/forum/images/emoticons/icon_lol.gif')f my communication is the response I get.

-Perhaps, in your opinion, yes. These are my views, and VERY simplistic views. However schoolkids these days don't know where milk comes from, and the current level of ignorance is incredible . Take a look at how the New Zealand Customs and Media dealt with the recent 18 kilos of seized (mimosa)-dmt scenario, to illustrate.LMAO:lol:

-We are a pretty well educated lot on the drugs scene , here on the Nexus. But, believe me- there are a lot of idiots out there that are in troubles because they didn't know what they were getting into, by taking drugs that were far more powerful than they could handle. Now they are addicted and in a mess. They didn't have the UNDERSTANDING of what they were dealing with, and didn't give it the RESPECT it deserved. This is a surefire fact!!- If they would have been wiser, they wouldn't be in their current hell. Knowledge IS power. This is what i'm getting at, be it drugs, fast living, processed food, etc. Common sense, understanding and simple respect is missing from todays society, because it's too easy for fools to spend some cash and get stuff they do not understand.

-What are your views, Ragbar??

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Moz- apologies for the misunderstanding.8)

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[ragabr]

Well, it seems to me that Afghanistan makes a very strong example against your proposal. It's a nation where most of the populace live at subsistence level, working the land. As one of the world's top cultivators and processors of poppies, they have very solid experience with every stage of the processing of opiates for use. They also have an amazing per capita addiction rate, at all levels of society.

It's certainly not easy there to spend some cash, when so few people have it.

Edit: Another data point, coming from the other side, Portugal. They have effectively made it much easier to unthinkingly purchase any drugs without work, as they've completely decriminalized, and so users no longer have to even concern themselves with hiding their activities from the law. Since doing so, there's been a remarkable decrease in the harmful effects of drug use.

 

[jamie]

A thought occured to me this morning. And this thought resonates with one of my previous postings: That man can feel confident and in control of what he manages to do by himself.

-This led me to realise that the main reason that we have drugs problems today, is because people are taking drugs which they do not understand and therefore do not respect. They do not understand the hassle it is to find and then pick the amount of raw materials required, they do not understand the amount of raw material that went into the processing of it's making, the scientific knowledge, the human effort, etc. But if they were to make it from scratch , they would at least know that it was gonna be something to be wary of. Such are the problems of living in a dis-connected society.

-Today it is just too easy to buy something and take it. far too easy..and not just drugs either!!

-Let's look to the past. In my opinion, mushrooms,hbwr,ololiqui- are amongst the strongest of readily available entheogens around. Why?- because all you do is pick them, and eat them-simples! Then comes Marijuana which can be eaten with some fatty material, or smoked, if one learns how. Coca leaves can be chewed-but must be mixed with ashes to work. Yopo seeds work when made correctly with ash and snorted. Cactus works but must be de-spined and tolerated as it is difficult to eat, and a pain to prepare. -So early man knew he was putting his energy into creating some kind of result, and in doing so gathering a natural knowledge that he was creating something more powerful, yet in balance with his efforts.

-Todays hard drugs, and spirit alcohols are subject to purifications that are out of the natural scheme of things, and that is where i believe the problems lie. In order to produce spirits one must understand how to distill without creating methanol. In order to make hard drugs one must understand chemical purification techniques, and have laboratory equipment at ones disposal etc.

-Readily available processed foods, strong pharmaceutical drugs also, fast life, fast drugs- maybe the world needs to SLOW down a bit and gather a bit of understanding of the nature of things, re-connect-oh, and yes : RESPECT!:roll:
:?: :?:

No offence but this whole perspective seems extremely naive in my opinion. There are a number of holes in this paradigm, many of which are pointed out in previous posts.

Points like this "ayahuasca is pretty laborious to prepare, simple beers and wines being easy to prepare. etc, etc ( just to give an idea)" are misleading. Beer is not necessarily so easy to make, while at the same time some tribes simply soak caapi vine in cold water to make ayahausca..they dont even brew it. Coca leaf does not need lime or ashes added to work..have you ever simply drank coca leaf tea?

Do you know anything at all about the history of crack? Do you know anything about how places like certain "ghettos" like compton etc were developed into what they are? Why there are liquor stores on every corner and why these places became crack infested areas?..about how certain people benifit from land value decreasing in these areas so they can buy them up later for cheap and redevelope them? This whole situation is far far more complex than you have made it out to be and it is just as much a polical and social problem as it is anything else.

I agree with you that fast food, processed foods and big pharma etc are things that are a part of the problem, but they are not the whole problem.

 

[GratefulDad]

The only drug problem is that they are illegal and sometimes hard to procure quality ones. I have no problem with drugs, it's the laws that are the problem..

As for idiot's using drugs, I see no reason not to speed up evolution. Protecting idiots from themselves just allows more idiot genes in the gene pool.

 

[elru]

Cocaine (as salt form) is NOT naturally occuring, but is a chemical extract from the coca leaf. Sure it exists in the coca leaf in freebase form, but in tiny, unsnortable amounts and not effective unless mixed with lime or ashes, etc. If you drink large amounts of coca tea you will not be affected, because it needs converting to a salt to be assimilated-thus the chewing or masticating of coca leaves with lime or ash. I may be wrong, but i don't think so.

May I please edit some of this to show how it can apply just as well to a drug that I imagine you think positively of, considering you're on a site for it ...
DMT (as freebase form) is NOT naturally occuring, but is a chemical extract from a whole big bunch of plants and animals. Sure it exists in these plants in salt form, but in tiny, unsmokableamounts and not effective orally unless mixed with an MAOI. If you drink large amounts of mimosa tea you will not be affected, because it needs to be inhibited by an MAOI.


I don't disagree with you that people sometimes do stupid things because they don't know what they are doing. Trying to fit this point onto an argument about "natural" vs "unnatural" drugs doesn't work.

 

[christian]

ELRU,Cocaine isn't comparable to DMT, regarding the MAOI thing, so that's a different subject. COCAINE HYDROCHLORIDE is a chemical extract, and NOT naturally occuring. But here we are going off on an analytical tangent, away from the UNDERSTANDING and RESPECT context of my original post.


-HEY GUYS, did you read my last post?? I'd also like to mention that my post applies to people who do not have "problems", that choose out of their own free will to take drugs,and are not impoverished peoples-for example,etc.

--We are a pretty well educated lot on the drugs scene , here on the Nexus. But, believe me- there are a lot of idiots out there that are in troubles because they didn't know what they were getting into, by taking drugs that were far more powerful than they could handle. Now they are addicted and in a mess. They didn't have the UNDERSTANDING of what they were dealing with, and didn't give it the RESPECT it deserved. This is a surefire fact!!

>YES, Ragbar, the above also concerns those addicted to Opiates in Afganistan, however it does not apply to those that are impoverished. And if you read my posts, you would be FULLY AWARE that in the thread title, as well as the last line of my title post, that i mention the words , UNDERSTANDING and RESPECT. Two very simple words, also mentioned in my most recent post. This isn't rocket science to fathom, and also applies to natural drugs. I mean we all know that natural drugs can be abused, but they are NOT as readily addictive as their refined cousins, etc.AND that is a point in the favor of opium, Also let us be aware that those addicts in Afganistan are mostly addicted to HEROIN , not opium, which is DIRT CHEAP.... In fact i do not understand what your issues are against my points, if you have considered this. Do you dislike the words "understanding and respect", or have something against them.??

--No offence but this whole perspective seems extremely naive in my opinion. There are a number of holes in this paradigm, many of which are pointed out in previous posts.

Points like this "ayahuasca is pretty laborious to prepare, simple beers and wines being easy to prepare. etc, etc ( just to give an idea)" are misleading. Beer is not necessarily so easy to make, while at the same time some tribes simply soak caapi vine in cold water to make ayahausca..they dont even brew it. Coca leaf does not need lime or ashes added to work..have you ever simply drank coca leaf tea?

>Fractal, you're missing my simple point, and going off on a bit of an analytical tangent there. My discussion on ayahuasca, coca leaf with ashes, etc... were simple illustrations, just to show the idea i was getting at. Not perfect models, just meant to be taken within the understanding and respect message of my post. Coca tea, have i tried it- yes, MANY TIMES- does it work-NO-OR EXTREMELY WEAK!!. Coca leaves must be chewed with ash, bicarb, or lime- or you're wasting your time, and the poor coca leafs time, but that's just my view, and i may be wrong, although i drank coca tea countless time in South America without success. If coca tea does work, the bioavailability is extremely poor in my experience. But i'm glad to see that you agree on my POINT, being that although ayahuasca can be laborious to prepare, it can be very simple to prepare. And if Coca leaf works fine in tea, in your opinion-that's great.Excellent. Thanks for complimenting my post point. Beers in their simplest form are very simple to prepare, and these are the type i'm talking about. The type that happened by " accident", etc. >It's just a post about simple natural drugs vs. Laboratory made high tech drugs (which are usually far more powerful) and thus more in need of respect and understanding , so let's not get too far out of context, please. Thanks.

--The only drug problem is that they are illegal and sometimes hard to procure quality ones. I have no problem with drugs, it's the laws that are the problem..

As for idiot's using drugs, I see no reason not to speed up evolution. Protecting idiots from themselves just allows more idiot genes in the gene pool.

>Gratefuldad, i couldn't agree with you more. My post isn't meant to be the "authoritive, my way is best"!!. And wasn't meant to be ripped apart and analised to death like some of the others have done. It was just a simple post about "understanding and being grateful for the nature of things in life", and knowing that it is enough- Having respect of these facts. Yea, basically the same messages that all good religions all agree on. "Simple respect and understanding". Something lacking in this world today. In fact so alien are these words, that the above posters failed to notice also!!:lol:

-I guess we have it so easy today, that we forget that we are human beings, and start to think we are supermen or something that can life without simple understanding and respect, unlike how we used to live in the past....(easy, easy, easy---respect, understanding??-who cares>??!!:roll

-And sure, those that do not undersatnd, or respect, get to learn some hard lessons. And deserve them. It's high time people had understanding and respect, and were allowed to be given the chance to prove themselves in this area by governments. All drugs should be legalised!!

-:idea: And people that want to take drugs should take some course to understand whole chain of drug production from the source, and treatment of workers, to the analytical and complex chemistry, and chemical processes, to the end product- to respect what they are about to take- HAHAHA:lol: 8)

 

[ragabr]

christian, you seem to be missing it over and over again. If everyone responding to a post interprets it in a way other than what the author intended, it's clear and obvious that the author did a very poor job in communicating. The problem is not with every single one of the numerous responses. For him to continue to rudely address everyone afterwards reflects a serious attitude problem.

Also, reading the initial post, clearly it wasn't just a message of "understanding and being grateful for the nature of things in life," it was a postulated reason for "todays [sic] drugs problems [sic]" which is clearly false based on the evidence.

 

[christian]

For him to continue to rudely address everyone afterwards reflects a serious attitude problem.

-Can you please give examples here please, Ragbar. I do not understand how my post was addressing everyone "rudely". In fact i could even go so far as say that those that missed out on the RESPECT and UNDERSTANDING part of my post were perhaps "rude" for not reading my initial post correctly. However i won't, because such tiny , trivial matters do not really matter to me, and simply create a lot of off topic nonsense.8)

--It was plain and clear that the words RESPECT and UNDERSTANDING were used throughout the "core" points of my initial post, which didn't just apply to drugs. Again, i urge you to kindly re-read my initial post, i thought that this general "vibe" would have been plain and obvious, and didn't need to be spoon fed. After all you are intelligent nexus users after all.

here, i even compliment you guys:

-"We are a pretty well educated lot on the drugs scene , here on the nexus".- are you simple being a little over defensive, Ragbar??

- I even use laughing expressions to highlight more jokey or comical aspects of my last reply, Ragbar.

- I even have the grace to reply to everyones comments with mine, explaining clearly, precise, and to the point. This is not being rude, but being efficient.8)

 

[Xt]

As for idiot's using drugs, I see no reason not to speed up evolution. Protecting idiots from themselves just allows more idiot genes in the gene pool.

:idea:

 

[Ice]

My Internet service went down while I was typing a reply so I'm havin to do this on my phone. That's why the quotes are a little janky. The original post was a little more in depth, but my fingers got tired of phone keyboard. Haha.

can you please...lot of offtopic nonsense

I think what he meant by you addressing people rudely is the way that you ignore the arguments and criticism given to you by the Nexus members amd direct everyone back to your original post. You are failing to see the holes in your argument that they are pointing out. It seems as if you see everyone as idiots since you continue to point out them missing the point of your post. Everyone understands the importance of respect and understanding of drug use, but it seems as if you arguing that it is the only factor influencing today's drug problems. This is how knowledge is grown. You presented an idea, they are critiquing it. We are here to grow and spread knowledge after all; this is what the Nexus is founded on as far as my understanding goes.

You are saying that they are rude for not understanding which is ridiculous. No offense. As I see it if they do not understand, It is your fault for improperly communicating.

Almost nothing I read was offtopic. Instead of seeing it as everyone is stupid and doesn't understand, look at it as them attempting to help you strengthen your argument and ideas so that they are more clear.

If you want them to understand better go back to your original post, take into account what others have said, and make a new post accordingly. The other members are just pointing out different sides of your proposal.

If you want no misunderstanding, spoon feed everything. Leave so that nothing is left to assumption.

 

[christian]

It seems as if you see everyone as idiots since you continue to point out them missing the point of your post. Everyone understands the importance of respect and understanding of drug use, but it seems as if you arguing that it is the only factor influencing today's drug problems.

-NO, I DON'T SEE OTHERS AS IDIOTS, THAT IS YOUR ASSUMPTION, ICE.
-NO, UNFORTUNATELY NOT EVERYBODY HAS RESPECT AND UNDERSTANDING OF THEIR DRUG USE. THAT IS ONE REASON WHY MANY PEOPLE ARE MESSED UP FROM DRUGS...AND QUITE OBVIOUS.
-NO, I NEVER ARGUED IT WAS THE ONLY FACTOR, AGAIN YOU ASSUMED THAT, ICE. ACTUALLY, I MENTIONED THAT MY POST WAS MEANT TO BE TAKEN LIGHTLY , AND NOT AS AUTHORITIVE, AND WAS ABOUT RESPECT AND UNDERSTANDING, OVER AND OVER...

You are saying that they are rude for not understanding which is ridiculous. No offense. As I see it if they do not understand, It is your fault for improperly communicating.

-ERM,ACTUALLY "SOMEONE" ACCUSED ME OF BEING "RUDE" TO EVERYONE, IN RETURN I SAID (IF SUCH WAS THE CASE, FOR EXAMPLE) I COULD POSSIBLY SAY THAT THEY "PERHAPS" WERE ALSO RUDE FOR NOT READING MY POST CORRECTLY IN THE FIRST PLACE, WHICH WAS WRITTEN IN A CALM, RELAXED WAY, ON THE CORE THEME OF RESPECT AND UNDERSTANDING, WHICH SEEMED QUITE OBVIOUS, AND STILL DOES. I ALSO MENTIONED THAT IT DIDN'T ONLY APPLY TO DRUGS. FINALLY I MENTIONED THAT I WOULDN'T BOTHER TO CALL THE PEOPLE "RUDE", BECAUSE I HAVE NO TIME OR INTEREST IN PURSUING TRIVIAL OFF TOPIC DIFFERENCES IN OPINION, WHICH ARE UNIMPORTANT TO THE INTEGRITY OF THE THREAD. ETC.

Almost nothing I read was offtopic. Instead of seeing it as everyone is stupid and doesn't understand, look at it as them attempting to help you strengthen your argument and ideas so that they are more clear.

-ACTUALLY I DID, ICE, AND THANKED ONE POSTER FOR DOING SO!

If you want them to understand better go back to your original post, take into account what others have said, and make a new post accordingly. The other members are just pointing out different sides of your proposal.

-LIKE I SAID ICE, MY POST WAS JUST A SIMPLE POST, THAT WASN'T LOOKING TO BE STRIPPED DOWN AND OVERANALISED. IT WAS ABOUT RESPECT AND UNDERSTANDING OF DRUGS AND OTHER THINGS IN LIFE, BECAUSE DRUGS ARE LIFE, AND WHAT APPLIES TO DRUGS APPLIES TO OTHER HUMAN PASTIMES, WETHER IT BE FOOD, DRINK, FAST CARS, NIGHTCLUBBING, SEX,WORK, ETC.
-JUST BECAUSE THE TITLE MENTIONED DRUGS, RESPECT, AND UNDERSTANDING, DOES NOT MEAN THAT THE TOPIC IS EXCLUSIVELY ABOUT DRUGS, ETC.
-WHY ON EARTH SHOULD I MAKE ANOTHER POST. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH IT, AND NEVER WAS. IT WAS SIMPLY MISINTERPRETED, FOR REASONS I STILL DO NOT UNDERSTAND.:shock:

If you want no misunderstanding, spoon feed everything. Leave so that nothing is left to assumption.

- I AM STILL STRUGGLING WITH THE FACT THAT SO MANY PEOPLE MISUNDERSTOOD MY OVERSIMPLISTIC ORIGINAL POST. sorry for that. NEXT TIME I WILL SPOON FEED ALL THE INFO, DROP BY DROP.

 

[a1pha]

^^ Ice didn't say that...

 

[christian]

he said that, and i replied...oh, i added a little more information so there would be less MIS-understanding....:lol: