Salt & Ice Water vs Freezer?

[Ellis D'Empty]

Ok, so salt with ice water reaches temps of around -30f (mythbusters ftw) I was wondering if it'd be better to freeze by just putting the container in a bowl of Salt/Ice Water than in the freezer. I dunno what the 'normal' freezer temp gets to... so any help would be great.

I'm actually going to be doing this tonight, with what I already have in the freeze (for the past 14hrs~) and see if anything else precips out.

 

[Elf Machine]

Adding salt to icewater will lower the freezing point of the water. How will that cool the container better than in the freezer?

 

[Ellis D'Empty]

Well, it would make the temperature in the water around -30F
I dunno the temperature inside of a freezer... Doing some research and it seems most are around 10F or even 0F

How would it cool the container better? Well how wouldn't it?

 

[shishigami]

Well, it would make the temperature in the water around -30F
I dunno the temperature inside of a freezer... Doing some research and it seems most are around 10F or even 0F

How would it cool the container better? Well how wouldn't it?

Salt and ice water causes freezing point depression. With certain sorts of salt in a saturated solution the depression will cause the melting point to be -30F. Although the process of melting is endothermic it is not enough to actually lower the temperature of water down to -30F.

 

[Ellis D'Empty]

Then why does a thermometer read -30F?

What about salt ice water, in the freezer?

 

[DiMiTriX]

salt and waater in freezer would be hotter or at the same temp of your freezer,never cooler..and anyway the solvent could reach theese temps too

 

[azar]

putting your jar in a salt water bath in your freezer should speed up the percip process, especially if the liquid at the top is stirred.

the reason is because a liquid, be it salt water, car coolant, oil, etc is always going to conduct heat and cold better then a gas of the same temperature.

basic chemistry we learn in grade 6 says that a gas is a gas because it's molecules are float'n around all spread out from each other. a liquid however, it's molecules are very close together. thus if your using a liquid there are more cold molecules for a given surface area touching say, your glass jar full of NP solvent.

hope i helped

 

[Ellis D'Empty]

Thats what I figured, so a good way to precip, if your freezer isn't the coldest, is to put a bowl of salt ice water in it and dunk your container in there xD

Thanks

 

[Apoc]

I don't get it though. You have to first get your basified product in to water in order to precip it. And I'm assuming only your product should be based and not the water itself because you don't want base in your product. How are you going to do that?

 

[Ellis D'Empty]

What do you mean apoc?

I'm simply stating taking the warm pulled naphtha, and instead of just putting it into the freezer to get only roughly 0f, you just dunk whatever container you have into the salt/ice water, which is at temps of -30F. No it doesn't "just be able to GET that temp" it actually IS that temp (do it, stir it a bit, and put a thermometer in it). So the naphtha would eventually get around -30F, if I understand it right. Which would in turn, make more DMT precipitate out.

 

[Apoc]

Oh I see. I didn't know the naptha doesn't go below 0.

 

[ouro]

mixing rock salt and ice in a bag will definitely lower the temperature below 0 C. Instead of explaining the physics, I invite you to read about ice cream making using this cooling method and then tasting the results . Kevyn, why don't you just drop some dry ice in the naptha? I suppose carbonate salts could form accidentally... you could just put the naptha jar in a cooler with dry ice. Several layers of paper bags like a babushka doll with the ice and jar in the center works fine instead of a cooler. careful putting dry ice in the freezer though, I think that can damage your fridge.

 

[Ellis D'Empty]

Well I don't do any of that because that's way more work than throwing some ice in with salt water xD

BTW: What do you mean by "taste the results"? Would lowering the temp that low affect the taste by precipitating more than just the alkaloids out?

 

[ouro]

By taste the results I mean tasting the ice cream you can make using milk/cream, flavoring, plastic bags, rock salt and ice. Ice cream forms below 0C so the rock salt is crucial to making good ice cream. This method dates back to before the 1700s, long before freezers were invented.

 

[azar]

hes talking about tasting home made ice cream, not dmt silly. And i have and can vouch for that ice cream. Which gets me thinking.. Aya-geltato? Yummy! Haha
but seriously, to clarify your salt water bath will only realisticly be effective in a shitty fridge. The salt water will not get any colder then the air inside your fridge. Period. A good quality freezer would most likely cool the naptha just as quick if not marginally slower compared to a salt water bath.
I'll give an egsample of were it would be good. I have a freezer that takes 3 weeks to freeze a cup of water because its not cold enough. Which means it takes 3 weeks for the water or any other liquid including naptha to get to freezing temps. If i had a bowl of salt water in there just chillin for a few months or so (get it? chillin? Its a PUN!) then all i'd have to do to get something down to freezing is drop the jar in this salt water bath and voala!
Now i also have a freezer that is so cold and efficient my fingers get frozen to the inside if i'm not careful. This freezes water in a few hours. Wich means regardless of the salt water bath, what ever i put in ther will be well frozen in a few hours. Absolutely no reason to use an ice bath. However, this freezer is colder and prob colder then freezing temps. Therefor it may be possible to leave the salt water bath in there for a few months and be left with a solution colder the freezing that would cool a jar to that temp faster then just dropping a jar in the freezer as is.
This is very easy to test. Simply put a salt water solution in the freezer for a few months then after a few months put a thermo meter in the solution and the one just in the freezer to see wich one gets coldest fastest and also which gets colder in say, an hour or so. Or what ever time span you wanna check out.
Ps sorry for being silly

 

[Ellis D'Empty]

OK.... well what you said makes no sense... How can you possibly say that -30F cannot be any colder than 0F?

If its -30F with the outside air being room temp, then how can it not get -30F in a freezer?

Have you ever seen mythbusters? The one where they "see if swearing actually helps fight pain"? They stick there hand in a salt ice water bath (which they temped to -30F~). And that was at room temp. So how do you come off saying that it doesn't?

I don't need to test anything. As it's already been proven that, because the water can't freeze at 0C (32F), the salt ice water bath can get below the freezing point. A freezer gets below a freezing point, but as far as I remember, not as cold as the salt ice water.

Now, I could totally be wrong about the temperatures, as I'm just going off of memory (I was in the shower and thought "hey I wonder if I could just use that salt ice water bath they did in mythbusters instead of my freezer". So I brought it to the Nexus. Maybe it was a bad decision as I'm mostly seeing replies that either don't get what it is I'm saying, or have no idea what they are talking about? I don't mean to sound rude, but I would think that if you have no "real" thing to contribute to the topic at hand, you wouldn't post. I could, and in some cases, be obviously wrong.


So I'll reiterate my point/question:

Seeing as how most freezers only get down to 0F (zero degrees) and Salted Ice Water get (from what I remember) significantly lower:

As ice begins to freeze out of the salt water, the fraction of water in the solution becomes even lower, and the freezing point drops further! However, this doesn't continue indefinitely. At some point the solution will become saturated with salt. This happens for salt in water at -21.1°C, which therefore is the coldest a saturated solution of salt and water can get.

So in theory (or hypothesis), putting the container of DMT Saturated naphtha would precipitate the DMT out faster than putting it into the freezer.

The mixture (salt+ice water) wouldn't, it COULDN'T, be the same temperature as out side, or ambient air temp., because well its ice water...


So please before you post your "opinion" (although you do have every right to) know that unless it has anything useful to the original topic at hand, then it will be ignored (at least by me).


Don't mean to sound like a dick, but please people...


Anyways, as soon as I get more NaOH I'm going to try to experiment and see what I come up with. Anyone and everyone else is welcome to join. Although, sure it might be pointless, but if it works how I believe it will, then it could work for those whose freezers don't work the greatest. As, with -30F you wouldn't even need a freezer to freeze precipitate; as well as, it would be a very cheap and easy method.

 

[SnozzleBerry]

Well...let's see...assuming you have a good working freezer, the freezer method requires you to stick your solvent container in it. Let's count the steps and materials used there...hmmmmmmmm...seems to be 1 step requiring only your solvent container and a working freezer.

Now, let's count the steps and materials to do it the other way...1, Freezing the ice...2, Putting ice/solvent container in a bowl/container 3, Adding salt...then you've gotta clean up/put away your salt/ice trays/bowl...additionally, if your solvent removal goes slow, you don't have a cold freezer with which to re-solidify your crystals, you have to melt your ice again (requiring a repeat of all the steps already done). This is clearly more involved than popping a container in your freezer.

Seems to me the only reason to go ice/salt is if you don't have a freezer, otherwise it's simply not worth the time/effort...I mean, really, what's the supposed benefit to going this route if you have a working freezer? If your main argument is time, I can't say it's worthwhile as you maybe save a couple hours at best and there's no reason that you should be in such a rush to precip your product anyways. Imo, the effort of going the ice/salt route cancels out any time saved and ultimately, if you have a freezer and are not rushing the process, I see no advantages whatsoever.

 

[azar]

what i'm saying is that it doesnt matter what substance you put in your freezer wether its a chicken, salt water, watever. The substance WILL NOT GET ANY COLDER THEN THE TEMPERATURE THE FREEZER IS OUTPUTTING! Period.
Second, even water is capable of getting colder then freezing temps. Doesnt matter what it is, if you put it in somewere cold, eventually if the room it is put in is cold enough, the substance will eventually match that temp.
Third generally speaking, an old worn out freezer's compessor is going to take longer to get to freezing temps then a nice new one. This is because either they are worn, or the tecnology they used back then was inefficient.
4th most freezers most definitly reach below freezing. Ever looked at a tub of ice cream and saw it says keep below -4c or what ever that is in f? So obviously your freezer gets below freezing. I'm not basing my answer on the ice cream, mearly using it as an e.g. But this is fact. Freezers are built this way,(to be below freezing) to freeze your food as fast as possible to preserve it as fast as possible.
Does that make more sense?

 

[azar]

OK.... well what you said makes no sense... How can you possibly say that -30F cannot be any colder than 0F?

If its -30F with the outside air being room temp, then how can it not get -30F in a freezer?

i garentee your freezer will be a few points below freezing and the only time the outside room remp air plays any part in the inside freezer temp is when you open the freezer door and all the cold are flows out and onto your legs and feet (cause cold air sinks and warmer air rises) and are replace with the air in the room. then once the door is closed again the freezer needs work hard to cool the new air thats in it.

I don't need to test anything. As it's already been proven that, because the water can't freeze at 0C (32F), the salt ice water bath can get below the freezing point. A freezer gets below a freezing point, but as far as I remember, not as cold as the salt ice water.

first up 0c is the point were pure water starts to solidify. if you held water at exactly 0c for long enough for the water to equal this temp, it would freeze. it doesnt matter what substance you put in the freezer weather its oil or salt water or whatever. nothing in your freezer is colder then the air in the freezer. nothing. period. salt water can handle a colder temp the pure water before becoming a solid, but this does not mean that salt water can get colder then pure water, it just means that it will stay solid. unless thats what you ment. sorry if you did.

Maybe it was a bad decision as I'm mostly seeing replies that either don't get what it is I'm saying, or have no idea what they are talking about? I don't mean to sound rude, but I would think that if you have no "real" thing to contribute to the topic at hand, you wouldn't post. I could, and in some cases, be obviously wrong.

dont be stupid, no question is a bad question, if said in the right way.

So please before you post your "opinion" (although you do have every right to) know that unless it has anything useful to the original topic at hand, then it will be ignored (at least by me).


Don't mean to sound like a dick, but please people...

and i'm brand new on this particular forum, and i may be outa place here saing this, but yes, you are being a lil rude, espially posting on the nexus nursery and expecting everyone to be scientists and telling them off for not understanding what your saying.

i'm just tryin to help you out man not post info that cant be used. and besides, surely we can be a lil silly and lay back every now and then.

 

[Ellis D'Empty]

Seems to me the only reason to go ice/salt is if you don't have a freezer, otherwise it's simply not worth the time/effort...I mean, really, what's the supposed benefit to going this route if you have a working freezer? If your main argument is time, I can't say it's worthwhile as you maybe save a couple hours at best and there's no reason that you should be in such a rush to precip your product anyways. Imo, the effort of going the ice/salt route cancels out any time saved and ultimately, if you have a freezer and are not rushing the process, I see no advantages whatsoever.

Exactly my point Some people don't have good freezers, or their freezers are very packed. Or some people don't even have freezers and need to evap. So I just thought it'd be nice to know you don't actually NEED a freezer, and/or do a dry-ice cooling in a container (as sometimes dry ice is harder to find even than a freezer).

My main argument was just that. The other one was precipitating all of it out, and then time.

As I've personally noticed that after freezing, even after 24+hrs, after pouring out the naphtha I can still blow on it and see the clouds form. (And my freezer is very cold) So I was also wondering, if maybe getting it to these negative temps, if perhaps it would help more DMT to precip out?