Science vs. Mysticism

[timothylearysdead]

I've misquoted you a little:

1) Astrology is a description of bull.

2) Given the condition of our mainstream society you have that shit in all kinds of bookstores, in magazines and what not.

3) You mean to ask if it is silly to view astrology as a description of cultural neurosis, that is cultural mental illness in some form of another?

Yes.
Yes.
Yes.

If we consider that it IS cultural mental illness (which it IS), and we read it from THAT perspective; as a "pure form" of cultural neuroses:

IT would make sense
AND our ORIGINAL notion would make sense.
--
Further:
If we recognize that it does affect the subconscious thoughts of society, it is useful to understand it from that perspective.

It is a matter of whether it is read literally or metaphorically.

--
But if we also recognize that it's stated purpose is to describe the subconscious thoughts of others:

Then it makes sense literally and metaphorically.
---
So it IS useful to read it as literally and metaphorically true
Whilst also remembering that it is NOT true.

(I AM agreeing with you; if that was unclear!)

 

[Citta]

I've misquoted you a little:

1) Astrology is a description of bull.

2) Given the condition of our mainstream society you have that shit in all kinds of bookstores, in magazines and what not.

3) You mean to ask if it is silly to view astrology as a description of cultural neurosis, that is cultural mental illness in some form of another?

Yes.
Yes.
Yes.

If we consider that it IS cultural mental illness (which it IS), and we read it from THAT perspective; as a "pure form" of cultural neuroses:

IT would make sense
AND our ORIGINAL notion would make sense.

Further:
If we recognize that it does affect the subconscious thoughts of society, it is useful to understand it from that perspective.

It is a matter of whether it is read literally or metaphorically.

But if we also recognize that it's stated purposeis to describe the subconscious thoughts of others:

Literally and metaphorically; it DOES make sense!

(I AM agreeing with you; if that was unclear!)

What what? Now you lost me. Astrology doesn't perceive itself to be metaphorically, neither is its purpose to describe the subconscious process of others. If it were, you couldn't call it a "cultural neurosis", and it wouldn't be this either. Nevertheless, viewing it as a "cultural neurosis" means that it is silly, no more, no less. And this it is.

I'm on antibiotics and it makes me have repeated events of acute diarrhea, so perhaps that's why I don't follow you. Life is a bitch with laxatives.

 

[timothylearysdead]

Sorry, I've edited it to hopefully make a bit more sense.

 

[Eliyahu]

rjb wrote:

Has anyone gone as far as to make the 2 work together? (science AND mysticism)

As it seems to me, everyone is either defending one side or the other, but that's about it

Well, last time I smoked DMT there were these extremely technologically advanced beings that were so highly advanced in fact that they demonstrated quite clearly to me that they had actually created the very multi-verse that I exist in.

These multi-million year old creator beings seemed to have the whole science and mysticism thing pretty well handled from the looks of what they showed me.

-But since it's all just a mere product of my hyperactive imagination I suppose it doesn't really matter to anyone but myself.

Until I build my own spaceship and prove the whole world wrong!!
- hahahaha! aha! AAAhahahahaha! <mad scientist laugh. :lol:

(note: the author of this post has no actual intention of building a space ship due to lack of funding and patients... )

 

[Citta]

Sorry, I've edited it to hopefully make a bit more sense.

Astrology is silly, period, it doesn't make any sense. For instance;

Astrology consists of a number of belief systems which hold that there is a relationship between astronomical phenomena and events in the human world. In the West, astrology most often consists of a system of horoscopes that claim to predict aspects of an individual's personality or life history based on the positions of the sun, moon, and other planetary objects at the time of their birth.

I mean, what the blip?

Edit; but sure, if you wish to look at it from a psychological, societal perspective, and the impact it has on people and society, then it is certainly necessary and useful to look into it. The belief systems themselves, however, are for the most part silly and nonsensical.

But yeah, we are in agreement I guess, but I just don't quite get where you're going, sorry

 

[Eliyahu]

Does the theory of inter-connectivity make no sense as well then? Because I personally feel like inter-connectedness is what makes astrology Valid.

 

[Citta]

Does the theory of inter-connectivity make no sense as well then? Because I personally feel like inter-connectedness is what makes astrology Valid.

Of course we are connected to the cosmos, but it doesn't follow that you can read in the sky whether or not you will get laid next week.

 

[Eliyahu]

citta wrote:

Of course we are connected to the cosmos, but it doesn't follow that you can read in the sky whether or not you will get laid next week.

true...And I'm not saying that the weekly world news daily horoscope is accurate but don't you think at least the local cosmos could have some degree of predictable impact on earths inhabitants that could have been charted and observed over vast amounts of time by ancient civilizations....?

 

[Citta]

true...And I'm not saying that the weekly world news daily horoscope is accurate but don't you think at least the local cosmos could have some degree of predictable impact on earths inhabitants that could have been charted and observed over vast amounts of time by ancient civilizations....?

What kind of predictable impact? Strange you mention predictable, because there has been no conclusive predictions made by astrology.

 

[murphythecat]

about astrology.

I must say I was never a fan of astrology, until I looked at it seriously about a month ago.

I have tried for 10 real close persons in my life, their sign fits themselves perfectly.

I now believe in astrology. I dont believe in signs, but I beleive that indeed, the month we are born will affect us in a certain way. I believe that the sign is scam, but theres something behind all this.

I mean, for all the 10 persons, each time, their astrology sign was right on!

its not scientific but it was enough for me to make me beleive a little.

 

[murphythecat]

but don't you think at least the local cosmos could have some degree of predictable impact on earths inhabitants that could have been charted and observed over vast amounts of time by ancient civilizations....?

this

 

[timothylearysdead]

Edit; but sure, if you wish to look at it from a psychological, societal perspective, and the impact it has on people and society, then it is certainly necessary and useful to look into it. The belief systems themselves, however, are for the most part silly and nonsensical.

But yeah, we are in agreement I guess, but I just don't quite get where you're going, sorry

That's all I was getting at - the psychological, societal perspective.

Given that it is so widespread, and that it DOES affect so many people on a subconscious level (whether they read it as 'truth or not') - it still has a REAL effect on people's thoughts, and peoples' actions.

So if one CAN understand those effects (on others), one CAN see that it DOES fulfill it's stated function.

 

[Veritatis cupitor]

Here, Think about it this way.... If you put out an article making a prediction like this:
"Next week, something amazing will happen in your life. You will run into great fortune, find love in unfamiliar places and see something you have always wanted to see." Now look at this closely... It may seem very general and it is. It is just general enough to be spot on specific. A curious person buys the Sunday paper and reads his horoscope. Let's say he happens to be a Pisces. His birthday falls upon February 20th. He's been pretty down on his luck and is considerably desperate. Feeling his life is out of control, he gussies up some courage and reads the aforementioned prophetic piece of advice. Absorbing this information has left him discouraged and disbelieving. Since he is in such a slump and not to mention vulnerable, the information is subconsciously stored. The next week his girlfriend from a few months back decides he should have another shot. Well the first thing that comes to mind was the "fortune" he had just read. So his faith is strengthened. He gets a considerable boost of confidence and bustles on every Sunday to buy his paper. Now with this new-found vigor he exclaims to his friends that there is something about this whole astrology thing. There's something about this whole Idea that the position of the planets in the moment of your birth, cosmically affects the remainder of your life. He explains this concept with such vigor and whimsical reprise that all around him are affected by his infectious confidence. A mob-Mentality to put it an other way.
So this one individual that has stumbled into a sheer moment of blind and dumb luck that his girlfriend decides he's an all-right guy after all, instantly attributes it to the very moment he let down his "shield of reason." The time he made himself vulnerable to such a farfetched idea as Astrology. (Through confidence he shared his tale and the history of Astrology or the record of such circumstance happening in the past, yields fruitful evidence to stir the pot of cultural acceptance till it reaches the apex of it's life in our culture and becomes an organized religion.)
All this to say, Astrology is as viral an idea as religion or you tube videos. But reason suggests otherwise. (IMO)

 

[timothylearysdead]

His birthday falls upon February 20th.

:shock: OMFG!
What's your secret? Maybe all of this is transferred subconsciously in everything we read and write; that's what I've been thinking.

 

[Veritatis cupitor]

Now that's a theory! It subtly coincides with the theory of epi-genetic information. But that very coincidence that what I had just made up, out of thin air mind you, directly and excitedly relates to you is exactly what I was trying to say.

 

[timothylearysdead]

I was joking, by the way..

The theory, though; I'll stick with that.

"Plant a seed, watch it grow"; if there are enough people to confirm the 'facts', any illusion can be created.... it's just a matter of time before people start repeating it back; and then EVERYONE forgets whether it was real or not to begin with..... of course, if this could have happened over centuries!
That's probably what has happened with astrology; and it really doesn't matter if it is real or not - the effects ARE real; on real people. But what about language?:

 

[Veritatis cupitor]

Aye, I got ya. With the whole science vs. mysticism thing, there's a time and place for everything. I like experimenting with "romanticized" views of the beyond but consistently maintain a rational view of what I perceive as reality. Whether or not there is truly something "behind the curtain" in reality actually doesn't make a difference upon the outcome of events proceeding from the point of stimulus. Stepping in front of a car at noon creates an effluent string of events, changing innumerable variables all at once and simultaneously. So consequently the more you look into something the more you find it to "fit your needs." If one wishes to truly maintain an open-mind one must never believe in anything.

 

[timothylearysdead]

If one wishes to truly maintain an open-mind one must never believe in anything.

Never say never!
Having no beliefs is simply having no connection to words. Recognizing that others DO have very strong connections to words (ie. most of the non-DMT smoking world) allows us to gain a deeper understanding of mainstream-society; by existing outside of normal modes of thinking.

When we speak, we speak our minds; when we write, we write our minds; when we read, we interpret someone's mind; when we understand, we read someone's mind.
When we return to no beliefs; we regain our own mind. And that applies to -everything-

 

[benzyme]

If one wishes to truly maintain an open-mind one must never believe in anything.

Never say never!
Having no beliefs is simply having no connection to words. Recognizing that others DO have very strong connections to words (ie. most of the non-DMT smoking world) allows us to gain a deeper understanding of mainstream-society; by existing outside of normal modes of thinking.

When we speak, we speak our minds; when we write, we write our minds; when we read, we interpret someone's mind; when we understand, we read someone's mind.
When we return to no beliefs; we regain our own mind. And that applies to -everything-

there are two sides to the street. you obviously don't want to have the mind so open that your brain falls out, and likewise, you wouldn't want to be so steadfast in a belief system that you're basically a zealot. beliefs are acceptable, but it would be more sensible to allow them to change with social dynamics

 

[timothylearysdead]

"beliefs are acceptable, but it would be more sensible to allow them to change with social dynamics"
Precisely. 'No beliefs' is not a 'belief system'. Beliefs can be chosen at will; changed at will; and lost at will.
Those who are trapped in their belief systems cannot change; such people identify themselves through unknowingly ironies- like murphythecat's contribution