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Science vs. Mysticism

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ayaya said:
The scientific method assesses facts.

The fact that someone predicted your star sign is a fact.

Your presupposition is that there is no answer to be found. So factual inquiry is disregarded in your approach, yet you reject mysticism for the same reason?

It's bemusing.

You are wrong. I am not presupposing anything, I said I wasn't sure. How is that presupposing anything?

Someone predicted my birth sign, big deal. Just as big a deal as those weakly horoscopes fitting just about anyone.
 
Citta said:
You are wrong. I am not presupposing anything.
You're presupposing that I'm wrong.
There are 12 star signs, the chances are 1/12 = 8.333333333333333333333333%
So your beliefs are contrary to statistical mechanics too.
 
ayaya said:
Citta said:
You are wrong. I am not presupposing anything.
You're presupposing that I'm wrong.
There are 12 star signs, the chances are 1/12 = 8.333333333333333333333333%
So your beliefs are contrary to statistical mechanics too.



The guy who predicted my sign did so because I said something that reminded him of key characteristics for Gemini. He even phrased it as a question. There isn't anything spooky going on, and my beliefs run very nice with statistics, which shows that there is no statistical significance to "predictions" made by astrologers.
 
I think it can be proven. If only the proof were not instinctively dismissed as a 'guess'.
Rationally, an 8% chance of success is too low to be a guess. What star sign are you tetra?
I'm a Virgo.
 
I may very well have misunderstood the definition of mysticism - if so I am sorry - but to me the hallmark of proper mysticism; as practised by the sufis, jesus, zen monks, et al; seems to be that it's practitioners do not make claims about other people's realities; but focus on a radically subjective knowledge which simply can't be put into words.

In this way mysticism is a radically scientific idea! What can be more in the spirit of science than accepting what is experienced for what it is? Die fröhliche wissenschaft as Nietzsche put it. And the Buddha mentioned that the most important thing was to never believe anything that he said.

However if you are using your personal experiences to deduce thruths for other people you're not practising mysticism--you are practising religion.
 
Embracing crackpot theories and neglecting to acknowledge objective truths about the reality we live is hardly a substitute for critical thinking.

I've been extremely interested in my own consciousness for years now, and sometimes I wonder if mysticism was "knowledge" developed directly from drug use. It seems like a lot of people here just embrace the knowledge they feel they've accessed through the use of psychedelics, and then just entirely dismiss everything else that exists in the physical world as illusion, or less real than the psychedelic experience. I think that is a serious problem for an individual, to solely embrace one aspect of life as ultimate truth and then to dismiss everything else.

It dilutes you, it can make many seem gullible, and though you may feel as if the psychological shackles society can impose on you have been removed, it seems as if the psychedelics are beginning to bind your hands behind your back without you even realizing it.

I have metaphysical experiences all the time, they just don't add up to anything once the drug wears off, and that is the problem. It is all too subjective, and it only exists in one's mind, where it should ultimately stay as a personal truth, not spouted off as universal fact. If the scientific method cannot touch these realms of experience, how can one actually embrace them as ultimate truth? I think if a lot of the people here believed the things they claim, they would be out doing way more radical things in this physical reality than they are doing, but it doesn't seem anyone is really doing anything, except taking awesome mind bending drugs which inspire the profound spot in your brain. :p
 
Kensho said:
I may very well have misunderstood the definition of mysticism - if so I am sorry - but to me the hallmark of proper mysticism; as practised by the sufis, jesus, zen monks, et al; seems to be that it's practitioners do not make claims about other people's realities; but focus on a radically subjective knowledge which simply can't be put into words.

In this way mysticism is a radically scientific idea! What can be more in the spirit of science than accepting what is experienced for what it is? Die fröhliche wissenschaft as Nietzsche put it. And the Buddha mentioned that the most important thing was to never believe anything that he said.

However if you are using your personal experiences to deduce thruths for other people you're not practising mysticism--you are practising religion.
sic erat scriptum
 
Citta said:
I also raised many other problems you didn't care to reply to. It's fine if you don't want to, but I asked those questions not to necessary "prove" you wrong or anything, but just because I wonder how one should solve them/explain them satisfactory with your hypothesis.

As a final remark; if we first assume that there actually exists something outside our consciousness, i.e something that is ontologically objective, which there are many good arguments for doing, then we have (scientific) methods to determine whether or not something existing independently of our consciousness is likely or not.
What problems did you raise that I didn’t respond to? I may have missed them due to the many intervening posts in this thread. If you don’t mind concisely re-stating them, I’d be glad to address them.

Anyhow, you’ve missed my point by a mile.

I am not suggesting that the primacy of consciousness paradigm or anything like it is “true” or “correct” or can be proven so. What I’m saying is that the primacy of matter paradigm is logically equivalent – it cannot be proven and there is nothing in our experience which suggests it is more likely to be true than any other existential paradigm.

You seem to believe that the primacy of matter paradigm is true, yet you have no evidence that it is. You say we have scientific methods to show that reality exists outside of consciousness, yet – by definition – no human being has ever experienced unconsciousness. No human has ever had the experience of being "outside of consciousness".

As I’ve said before, I don’t necessarily subscribe to the idea that our existence is a dream, but imagining that it is serves a useful purpose with respect to this argument. You claim that there are scientific methods that can prove your existence is not a dream. What are those methods?
 
gibran2 said:
Citta said:
I also raised many other problems you didn't care to reply to. It's fine if you don't want to, but I asked those questions not to necessary "prove" you wrong or anything, but just because I wonder how one should solve them/explain them satisfactory with your hypothesis.

As a final remark; if we first assume that there actually exists something outside our consciousness, i.e something that is ontologically objective, which there are many good arguments for doing, then we have (scientific) methods to determine whether or not something existing independently of our consciousness is likely or not.
What problems did you raise that I didn’t respond to? I may have missed them due to the many intervening posts in this thread. If you don’t mind concisely re-stating them, I’d be glad to address them.

Anyhow, you’ve missed my point by a mile.

I am not suggesting that the primacy of consciousness paradigm or anything like it is “true” or “correct” or can be proven so. What I’m saying is that the primacy of matter paradigm is logically equivalent – it cannot be proven and there is nothing in our experience which suggests it is more likely to be true than any other existential paradigm.

You seem to believe that the primacy of matter paradigm is true, yet you have no evidence that it is. You say we have scientific methods to show that reality exists outside of consciousness, yet – by definition – no human being has ever experienced unconsciousness. No human has ever had the experience of being "outside of consciousness".

As I’ve said before, I don’t necessarily subscribe to the idea that our existence is a dream, but imagining that it is serves a useful purpose with respect to this argument. You claim that there are scientific methods that can prove your existence is not a dream. What are those methods?

I'll make it quick because I need to go sleep now. But you will find everything in posts #55, where you only addressed the room example, and the rest you can find in the post you quoted - where I argue that no assumptions were made with the room example.

I also wrote "All of our semantics aside gibran2, I am not sure that the problem of consciousness will ever be solved, or if it even can be. All the paradoxes seem to meet there, and they put you out for a real spin", so I am not taking any absolute positions either, but I find the primacy of matter more convincing for reasons already presented, and problems associated with the primacy of consciousness paradigm.

I agree that in a strict empirical sense there is no way to confirm either hypothesis, I just think there are better arguments for the primacy of matter than there is for the other. Many of them, as mentioned, have been presented in post #55 and the one you quoted. But I don't know, sometimes on some days I actually slip a little bit over to the other side - much because I have been discussing with you.

Sweet dreams, gibran2 =)
 
For the sake of argument lets say that someone falls into a wormhole and visits real live million year old aliens from another dimension........

In that highly developed place.. technology would be so far out there would be no way for the person to describe properly what he saw to other PRIMITIVE earthlings.
There especially would be no way for this person to PROVE they saw aliens and alien technology..

But lets say that person did see aliens...and the technology he saw was also real...
There is a chance that that person may have caught a glimpse of something that could send our technology in the right direction...

For example, my DMT trips have revealed to me that "Aliens" do not build spaceships but in fact they grow them.. Aliens create spaceships by using an extremely advanced bio-robotic engineering technology. Of course no way I could prove that I saw it but really who cares?
If I were a scientist, (an open minded one) I would take into consideration the fact that aliens seem to have perfected bio-cyber-engineered technology,

"Hey! they can grow robots!"
this observation might spark my creativity as a scientist...

.Of course I'm not a scientist.. I'm a shaman...my suggestion is that perhaps scientists should listen to some of the far out ideas of shaman a bit more because there is some valuable inspiration there.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ALSO, reading this thread made me think..

How can you tell the difference between someone who is genuinely seeking the truth in life compared to someone who simply desires to be right all the time?

That's easy, the person that only desires to be right and does not care about the true nature of existence NEVER changes his or her viewpoint on anything EVER.

Because even the wisest scientist or mystic humbles himself enough to know that they know nothing and could always benefit by learning from others.

Wisdom without proper understanding and compassion to back it up is nothing more than a worthless and tyrannical form of self importance ...

Some times I feel like some people are just short changing the power of observation when they imply that no one could actually see the universe is it actually is,OBJECTIVE..

that is the universe exists totally separate from the SUBJECTIVE interpretation of our perception, all we have to do is side step our perceptual filtering mechanism.
 
Citta said:
I agree that in a strict empirical sense there is no way to confirm either hypothesis, I just think there are better arguments for the primacy of matter than there is for the other. Many of them, as mentioned, have been presented in post #55 and the one you quoted. But I don't know, sometimes on some days I actually slip a little bit over to the other side - much because I have been discussing with you.

Sweet dreams, gibran2 =)
My Saturday night is about to begin, so I too will keep it short for now:

Isn’t it funny that all of the arguments you feel more strongly support the primacy of matter, without existing in your consciousness, wouldn’t – for you at least – exist at all?
 
I have cleaned the thread of the ad hominen, immature, unconstructive emotional venting posts. I ask you all posting in this thread, specially Citta and ayaya, to read the Attitude page. Before posting, please take a time to reflect WHY you are posting here in the first place, what is it exactly that you want to achieve with the post, and what kind of effects the post can have on the people reading and on the quality of the discussion.


If anybody feels unhappy to have had their posts removed, feel free to contact me, I take the full responsibility.
 
endlessness said:
I have cleaned the thread of the ad hominen, immature, unconstructive emotional venting posts. I ask you all posting in this thread, specially Citta and ayaya, to read the Attitude page. Before posting, please take a time to reflect WHY you are posting here in the first place, what is it exactly that you want to achieve with the post, and what kind of effects the post can have on the people reading and on the quality of the discussion.


If anybody feels unhappy to have had their posts removed, feel free to contact me, I take the full responsibility.

The fact of the matter is that logic, language, and mathematics are responsible for producing all predictable, unthinking, automated-responses in thought and action throughout mainstream society. This is what Astrology; Tarot; Alchemy; Freemasonry; Shamanism; Clairvoyance etc. etc. all relate to. This is widely known; and is covered extensively in the philosophy of logic and mathematics by Russell, Wittgenstein, Whitehead etc. etc., as well as more popular (psychedelic) philosophers. Why this is kept hidden from view on here - and to what end - I really cannot imagine.

Most of reality is not logical, unfortunately; and it requires a more rational understanding of consciousness/subconsciousness to appreciate this. I won't post here again. Sorry for making an intellectual contribution. My signature has taken on a more poignant nature than was originally conceived - and it refers to logical minds disregarding 'illogical' thoughts - Wittgenstein.
 
Eliyahu said:
For the sake of argument lets say that someone falls into a wormhole and visits real live million year old aliens from another dimension........

In that highly developed place.. technology would be so far out there would be no way for the person to describe properly what he saw to other PRIMITIVE earthlings.
There especially would be no way for this person to PROVE they saw aliens and alien technology..

But lets say that person did see aliens...and the technology he saw was also real...
There is a chance that that person may have caught a glimpse of something that could send our technology in the right direction...

For example, my DMT trips have revealed to me that "Aliens" do not build spaceships but in fact they grow them.. Aliens create spaceships by using an extremely advanced bio-robotic engineering technology. Of course no way I could prove that I saw it but really who cares?
If I were a scientist, (an open minded one) I would take into consideration the fact that aliens seem to have perfected bio-cyber-engineered technology,

"Hey! they can grow robots!"
this observation might spark my creativity as a scientist...

.Of course I'm not a scientist.. I'm a shaman...my suggestion is that perhaps scientists should listen to some of the far out ideas of shaman a bit more because there is some valuable inspiration there.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ALSO, reading this thread made me think..

How can you tell the difference between someone who is genuinely seeking the truth in life compared to someone who simply desires to be right all the time?

That's easy, the person that only desires to be right and does not care about the true nature of existence NEVER changes his or her viewpoint on anything EVER.

Because even the wisest scientist or mystic humbles himself enough to know that they know nothing and could always benefit by learning from others.

Wisdom without proper understanding and compassion to back it up is nothing more than a worthless and tyrannical form of self importance ...

Some times I feel like some people are just short changing the power of observation when they imply that no one could actually see the universe is it actually is,OBJECTIVE..

that is the universe exists totally separate from the SUBJECTIVE interpretation of our perception, all we have to do is side step our perceptual filtering mechanism.

The first part: the movie Contact puts this into a nice perspective.

The second part: the only thing I will say with 100% certainty is that I don't know anything with 100% certainty.
 
Would love to see how Citta explains how the double slit experiment has nothing to do with mysticism.
 
I never saw the movie contact because someone told me the aliens actually just turn out to be jodie foster's father in the end...

I thought that sounded lame so I never watched it.

Am I missing something? is it a good movie...?
 
I want to add one thing, just one last thing to this thread before I leave it forever.

If you did not exist, reading this post right now, then it doesn't matter if its mysticism or science because you do not exist. Since you exist, this thread has meaning. I really think its that stupidly simple in the end. Collapse a wave function, no matter how you look at it, if you were not LOOKING AT IT then it wouldn't happen (for you). It's so subtle it slips past your notice but it really could just be that simple in the end...
 
There are these new Wal-Mart brand, steak flavored, potato chips. As far as matter goes, they're bad-ass! With a little forethought, I can divine their flavor a few hours in advance.


Disclaimer: The above mentioned potato chips are very unhealthy and are probably engineered to kill you. Consult your physician before use.


Science v. Mysticism? -Don't know, but probably related.

Salivation vs. Salvation? -Don't know, but probably related.


Just giving you something to chew on.


Peace.
 
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