Smoking nb-DMT-OXALATE

[ben77]

With respect to harm reduction, this is incredible irresponsible and extremely bad advice.

Please check out attitude page on Safe and constructive drug talk.


The Traveler

@ben10 Responses like this make me think you actually have a very limited understanding of what you are talking about, my advice is to not make the mistake of thinking that an LLM will give you anything true, especially when you clearly lack the ability to judge the quality of the response.

Please don’t put your health at risk and stop promoting potential harmful practices based on your beliefs and gut feeling.

Take care

IMO the right way would be to think of experiments to disprove it, and then see what happens.

Any thoughts in light of the paper @aizoaceous shared?
if someone want the full (short) paper: https://sci-hub.se/https://doi.org/10.1016/S0040-4039(00)95036-6.

 

[blig-blug]

I don't know much about chemistry, but what leads you to think that what happens in

a round bottom flask maintained under an argon atmosphere, heated in an oil bath

resembles what happens burning plant matter impregnated in NBoc-DMT and harmalas?

More than "not the exact same conditions", I would say "very different conditions".

Have you thought of some experiments?

 

[ben77]

I don't know much about chemistry, but what leads you to think that what happens in

resembles what happens burning plant matter impregnated in NBoc-DMT and harmalas?

More than "not the exact same conditions", I would say "very different conditions".

Have you thought of some experiments?

Come on man... Come on...

Oil bath is just a bath of hot oil. It ensures uniform heating with large quantities and improves temperature control during the reaction. With a ~100mg it really doesn't matter. You don't need a round bottom flask or an oil bath. Just heat it slowly until it starts (and finally stops) bubbling.

And as for the argon - it was used to prevent oxidation products due to oxygen in the air. In reality, this isn't a big problem due to the following:
1. The pipe doesn't contain much air anyway, and even less oxygen (I can calculate it for you if you want).
2. The kinetics of liquid-gas reactions are very poor.
3. The reaction produces CO2 which displaces the air in the pipe.

If you really want to - use a glass test tube with an helium balloon for stage 1 and than transfer it to a pipe for stage 2.

Also, I didn't spoke about plant matter. Who said anything about plant matter? I spoke about the pure chemical as evident from my comments:

I just heat it untill it decomposes and than smokes it. No need for fancy chemistry. It decomposes in heat.

Nothing fancy really

I'm basing it mostly on experience. When heating it, there are two stages:
1. Bubbling and production of what looks like steam.
2. Creation of residue (assumingly DMT) that actually burns and vaporized.

My gut tells me that this gives a greater yield than having to mess with extractions and solvents.

[...]
I can agree with you on some level. I never was one to enjoy herbal mixes with chemicals. It gives you much less control. I prefer pure chemicals.
[...]

What made you to assume I talked about "plant matter"?

 

[ben77]

To be honest, I was being modest when saying "not the exact same conditions".
A equally correct phrasing would've been "pretty darn similar conditions".

 

[blig-blug]

What made you to assume I talked about "plant matter"?

This was what was being talked about when you originally replied:

Has anyone come across the newly mentioned NB-DMT freebase changa that’s been circulating recently?

Instead of speculating, it's better if you send for analysis the results of whatever you do and post here the results. I don't think we'll get anywhere by speculation.

Or whatever experiment you were going to do to prove or disprove it.

 

[ben77]

This was what was being talked about when you originally replied:


Instead of speculating, it's better if you send for analysis the results of whatever you do and post here the results. I don't think we'll get anywhere by speculation.

Or whatever experiment you were going to do to prove or disprove it.

So did you really think I meant that the herb mix was bubbling and only then "vaporized"? Or that the heated herb mix should be tested with TLC? If so - it definitely explains why you didn't agreed with me...

Honestly, in light of the paper - I don't feel like any tests or analyses on my part are warranted.
The researchers already confirmed my claims 40 years ago on very similar substances. I see no reason that the chemistry would be any different for NB-DMT.

I just offered a simple way to convert NB-DMT to DMT, based on my knowledge and observations. @aizoaceous supplied a paper that further validate my claims, for people that aren't strong in chemistry and doesn't want to trust the "forum self proclaimed chemist" and his technical explanations they don't really understand.

If this isn't enough for the standards of the forum, so be it

But I did presented a way to prove or disprove my claims here:

TLC might work:
1. only DMT
2. only NB-DMT
3. a mixture of both
4. NB-DMT after being slowly heated until there are no vapors or bubbles.

And trivially, anyone can replicate the paper and test the MP of the product. It will prbbly require a recryst (unless you have a chromotography column lying around).

I'll agree that recryst is the proper way to go if you don't mind losing some product for higher purity. For me personally, I don't mind the lower purity. I can't imagine the impurities being toxic in any way or form. And I beilive them to be less than 5% anyways.

 

[blig-blug]

But I did presented a way to prove or disprove my claims here

It seems you don't understand how the burden of proof works. The claims are yours, it's on you to prove or disprove them. I personally couldn't care less about NBoc-DMT, the actual stuff is easy enough to extract. You came in here with some claims, and haven't offered more that some evidence (not even brought up by you) that it may work.

You were supposedly going to do some experiments and bring actual proof. Now, do it or don't, but I don't get the point of asking people's "opinions" on whether some paper proves that what you do gets you a non-toxic end product. (Note also that the paper claims nothing about the toxicity of the end result)

I just offered a simple way to convert NB-DMT to DMT,

No, you "just" came with some claims that you so far refuse to support with actual, hard evidence. If you want to convince anyone else your time will be better invested by actually experimenting than typing more words.

And trivially, anyone can replicate the paper and test the MP of the product

Then go ahead and do it.

I can't imagine the impurities being toxic in any way or form

It doesn't surprise me, it tracks with your standards in this whole discussion.

 

[aizoaceous]

@ben77 - I think your chemical insight is good, but I don't think you're properly considering how others will read your comments. You initially said:

I just heat it untill it decomposes and than smokes it. No need for fancy chemistry. It decomposes in heat.

I understand you mean "in a closed pipe so that evolved carbon dioxide blankets the reaction mixture, heat the freebase gently until bubbles just begin to appear, maintain temperature until the bubbles stop, then smoke". I think that would probably work safely for the reasons you note, but:

1. "Probably" isn't a great standard with one's health at stake.
2. Very few readers would have filled in those missing details, especially when the context of the thread was either freebase changa or oxalate crystal, neither of which would be directly amenable to that procedure.

Wikipedia claims that N1-Boc-N,N-DMT is about 25% as potent as normal N,N-DMT, citing a law enforcement vendor's survey of Internet forums. They're not clear on whether they mean freebase or salt, but the Boc and oxalate are together only about half the mass. That seems to imply whatever people are doing isn't clean deprotection, since that leaves about half the mass unaccounted for, as either unreacted starting material or unknown side products.

I think you should value your life a little bit more here. If not that, then consider the life of any readers trusting (their potentially incorrect interpretation of) your advice, almost all with less training than you, including literal children despite our best efforts. You certainly have the skills to develop and validate a clean deprotection here, so I'm not sure why you wouldn't bother. Sketchy drug stuff is usually fine, but sometimes it's not (MPTP, vitamin E acetate, etc.).

 

[ben77]

@ben77 - I think your chemical insight is good, but I don't think you're properly considering how others will read your comments. You initially said:


I understand you mean "in a closed pipe so that evolved carbon dioxide blankets the reaction mixture, heat the freebase gently until bubbles just begin to appear, maintain temperature until the bubbles stop, then smoke". I think that would probably work safely for the reasons you note, but:

1. "Probably" isn't a great standard with one's health at stake.
2. Very few readers would have filled in those missing details, especially when the context of the thread was either freebase changa or oxalate crystal, neither of which would be directly amenable to that procedure.

Wikipedia claims that N1-Boc-N,N-DMT is about 25% as potent as normal N,N-DMT, citing a law enforcement vendor's survey of Internet forums. They're not clear on whether they mean freebase or salt, but the Boc and oxalate are together only about half the mass. That seems to imply whatever people are doing isn't clean deprotection, since that leaves about half the mass unaccounted for, as either unreacted starting material or unknown side products.

I think you should value your life a little bit more here. If not that, then consider the life of any readers trusting (their potentially incorrect interpretation of) your advice, almost all with less training than you, including literal children despite our best efforts. You certainly have the skills to develop and validate a clean deprotection here, so I'm not sure why you wouldn't bother. Sketchy drug stuff is usually fine, but sometimes it's not (MPTP, vitamin E acetate, etc.).

Most people probably didn't slowly heat it up slowly before smoking it. This might explain the data.

But I get you. For anyone that reads this comment:
1. Smoking a herbal mix with NB-DMT in it is a bad idea ALWAYS. Not only you can't control the dosage you consume, but you also can't decompose it to DMT in a matter that is even close to what was described in the paper. Vendors mixing it with MAOI makes it even worse, as NB-DMT might be active on its own and its effects with MAOI are UNKNOWN. This can be dangerous and even catastrophic.

2. Even with pure powder - THERE'S ALWAYS A RISK. There's a reason that pharmaceutical companies spends so much time and money to clinically test even medicines that are very similar to medicines that were already tested (and clinical tests in humans are only the last link in testing and approving a new medicine). They do this even for pro-drugs to existing medicines. NB-DMT is not tested and you are the lab rats.

3. Everything I said before is also true. But at most it will guild you on whether or not you want to be a lab rat. IT DOES NOT MEANS THAT YOU ARE NOT A LAB RAT.

@aizoaceous Maybe in the future I'll ran an experiment to prove/disprove my claims. Right now I just don't have the time.

 

[DK_one]

I do not get what's this all about.
Is it about being right?

Isn't like when you are seriously are interested specially in DMT that the need of being right is something you have lost already along time ago?

I can understand the side of ppl that want to stand the ground for ppl not get influenced by a quick find about something unclear.


Hope noone makes something out of my statement I didn't want to say!



I own nb-dmt too. But I did decide to not use it and go the long way, which usually is the right way, isn't it?

 

[aizoaceous]

If someone sincerely believes they're right, then I think it's good for them to explain why and try to convince others. Regardless of whether their claim is ultimately confirmed or refuted, that's how we learn things. We just also need to consider the asymmetric consequences of mistakenly treating something safe as unsafe vs. unsafe as safe (again recalling MPTP, vitamin E acetate, etc.).

After all this discussion, I think we've concluded that:

• Boc deprotection usually requires a more complex process, but other indoles (but not specifically DMT) are known to be deprotected with good yield by simple heating.
  • This is presumably due to the difference in reactivity between the usual amine nitrogen and the indole or pyrrole nitrogen.
• Smoking the freebase directly may be more dangerous and less efficient than gentle heating first to deprotect.
• The changa may be more dangerous than the pure substance, at least since it makes that gentle deprotection difficult.

I haven't seen those specific conclusions elsewhere, and I see comments on other sites advocating methods to consume N1-Boc-N,N-DMT that may be more dangerous. I wouldn't consume that substance myself, but I'm in a place where DMT-bearing plant material is sold openly but that substance is not. I understand there are people in the reverse situation, and many of them seem to be consuming N1-Boc-N,N-DMT already. So I think we should give those people the best information we can, while also emphasizing that they're taking a poorly-understood risk. I hope we've collectively done that now.

This forum also has users capable of analysis that would resolve this question of safety with better confidence. I unfortunately don't have access to N1-Boc-N,N-DMT; but maybe someone who does will read this thread and get the inspiration to measure.

 

[DK_one]

I didn t want to question anyone's intent. Just everyone's intent to be not harming others....

And I think this thread is a good example for that this Nboc is not explicit to be harmless or nobody rly can tell. But honestly I am the least that go for it.


!!want to add that not the ppl that threw this RC are the problem, the problem is called Prohibition!!!