Success with Harmala e-liquid (benzoic acid salts)

[fog]

Hey all,

I just wanted to share the results of this experiment since I haven't seen anyone else do it.

Harmala freebase doesn't disolve in pg/vg so I was wondering about salt forms. I know there are health risks associated with certain acids. I found some benzoic acid, this is what is commonly used to make nicotine salts (eg, JUUL vapes).

Benzoic acid has low solubility in water but high in ethanol. I made a saturated benzoic acid solution in ethanol. Gradually added this to fb harmala powder until fully dissolved. It will turn from beige to dark red. Evaporated and was left with a dark red goo, smells a bit like aniseed.

I used a 50/50 pg vg mix and was able to disolve around 100mg (initial fb weight) harmala alks per 1ml of 50/50 liquid. Solubility may be higher in either pg or vg, will need to test this. Added a drop of menthol cause I didn't really like the smell.

Vaped perfectly, very smooth taste, minimal throat hit. Doesn't seem to be building up in the coil. It seems to be remaining as a salt in the vapor (I guess because condensation on my glass drip tip is that same red color). Effects are what you would expect for the given dose.

If anyone has any ideas about the health effects of this i'd be interested

 

[downwardsfromzero]

It's great that you've been doing this research.

Benzoic acid/benzoates could theoretically decarboxylate to benzene although the question as to how much this occurs, if at all, under vaping conditions would have to be answered with further experimentation. While it would seem that it's probably a minimal risk given its use in nicotine vapes, it's at least worth checking the literature to see if this has even been investigated.

The copper catalysed decarboxylation of benzoate to benzene may be effected by heating in quinoline.

Quinoline is not entirely dissimilar to β-carbolines.

 

[Propello]

Interesting post. In e-cig liquid, nicotine salts are also based on salicylic acid and malate.

Haven't tried the malate, but the salicylic acid based nicotine salt is better with no taste vs benzoic based nic salt which has some chemical flavor to it IMHO.

So I suppose salicylic acid and malate is safe to use as well as the benzoic acid.

 

[Loveall]

I tried something similar with DMT citrate and it seemed to work. Only small test so far. Note that DMT benzoate did not dissolve well in PG when I tested it. Cheers.

 

[macguyver]

This requires benzoic acid, which I cannot buy easily in my country.
Can anyone suggest an alternative method (using things that can be bought - UK) to achieving the conversion of FB to salt form?

Also:
I do have some GOLD harmala (which I extracted myself some years ago) which, from memory, I believe is the HCL form. The salt form above is described as being red. What is difference between the gold and red salt forms?

 

[downwardsfromzero]

This requires benzoic acid, which I cannot buy easily in my country.
Can anyone suggest an alternative method (using things that can be bought - UK) to achieving the conversion of FB to salt form?

Also:
I do have some GOLD harmala (which I extracted myself some years ago) which, from memory, I believe is the HCL form. The salt form above is described as being red. What is difference between the gold and red salt forms?

Did you read Propello's post above? Malates can be prepared from malic acid, which is a brewing ingredient. It would be a question of how well, if at all, the harmala malates dissolve in the e-juice. This would be something for you to experiment with and we can only hope that the poetic assonance is good sign.

 

[macguyver]

Is there a simple way to convert malic acid to malates?

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Is there a simple way to convert malic acid to malates?

Salt formation is a pretty standard thing. You may have to tinker with it a bit but malic acid does seem to dissolve in ethyl acetate. So, at it's simplest you'll just dump the malic acid crystals into the harmala solution, stir, and leave to settle overnight.

 

[macguyver]

Forgive my ignorance, could you elaborate:

"dump the malic acid crystals into the harmala solution"

What is the harmala solution here? ... saturated salicylic acid solution in ethanol + added harmala powder until fully dissolved..?

Then dump the malic acid crystals in?

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Harmala freebase solution, in ethyl acetate. Dump the crystalline malic acid in that.

 

[Sanalejo171]

I tried something similar with DMT citrate and it seemed to work. Only small test so far. Note that DMT benzoate did not dissolve well in PG when I tested it. Cheers.

Hi everyone, thanks for your research on e-juasca and dmt citrate sorry for my english I'm Latin, I'm new and I had to post here....... have you tried changing the PG for PEG400 as a solvent for harmala citrate or benzoate from harmala......I prefer PEG400 over PG because the throat hit is much softer, and to melt rosin or wax PEG400 is much more effective and can be mixed with ethanol to melt and packaged in a 510 cartridge. ........hopefully that was the step to follow..........I've been following you for the last week and I didn't find that you confirmed if you tried these options I haven't tried anything because I still don't have my cappi but i am on the same quest in the name of science and DIVINITY:thumb_up:

 

[Loveall]

I tried something similar with DMT citrate and it seemed to work. Only small test so far. Note that DMT benzoate did not dissolve well in PG when I tested it. Cheers.

Hi everyone, thanks for your research on e-juasca and dmt citrate sorry for my english I'm Latin, I'm new and I had to post here....... have you tried changing the PG for PEG400 as a solvent for harmala citrate or benzoate from harmala......I prefer PEG400 over PG because the throat hit is much softer, and to melt rosin or wax PEG400 is much more effective and can be mixed with ethanol to melt and packaged in a 510 cartridge. ........hopefully that was the step to follow..........I've been following you for the last week and I didn't find that you confirmed if you tried these options I haven't tried anything because I still don't have my cappi but i am on the same quest in the name of science and DIVINITY:thumb_up:

Hola amigo. No, I haven't tried PEG400.

 

[Sanalejo171]

physically it is very similar to pg but apparently it is more soluble in water:

altamente hidrosoluble PEG 400 - Wikipedia