Ayawasqero
Esteemed member
Seems unbelieveable somebody could even think to mix the highest Sacrament and the Mass killer. Take care of Yourself and don´t die. Shalom to Your heart.
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That ugly heroin thread
- Thread starter Opiyum
- Start date
A lot of you guys are really surprising me. I see a lot of people reciting their DARE class propaganda about how bad heroin is. The same propaganda has been said of psychedelics as well. Having used heroin and having lost multiple friends to it, I could blame it but the truth is that it was not heroin but prohibition that causes the problems of illicit opiate use. Most heroin overdoses are in fact accidental fentanyl ODs. If people do not know what they are ingesting their is a great risk of overdose. Despite what people think heroin and other opiates are pharmacologically very safe drugs if used dose appropriately (even for recreation). Medical grade opiates have virtually zero long term health risks. The only real side effect is constipation which can be dealt with. Opiates help millions of people everyday deal with psychological and physical pain.
If one looks at all the issues claimed to be associated with illicit heroin they will quickly see that every single one (aside from addiction) results from prohibition. No joke go to the DEA site and try this exercise. Prior to prohibition many people used heroin (it is believed the same % of population as today). Heroin and morphine were freely available in a pure form at a cheap price. Rate of use was the same, yet overdoses were less, IV use was less, disease spread was less, heroin associated crime were less.... so what happened? PROHIBITION. Aside from companies marketing it to unsuspecting children and some addiction due to irresponsible doctors there were minimal sociological and health issues associated with its use.
Contemporary Heroin has been made a monster by prohibition however even still many heroin users are not homeless thieving fiends this is a major misconception. Many heroin users are not addicted. see: http://www.jrf.org.uk/sites/files/jrf/1859354254.pdf
Also a significant numbers of the heroin users I have met were not any more irresponsible than others and many of whom you would never suspect used heroin/opiates based on the DARE class stereotypes. How I admit some were reckless and always fucked up nodding out and some died accidently. However had they known the dose they were taking they would still be alive today. People can and do abuse anything even hallucinogens. Alcoholics are just as bad if not worse than hard core junkies to be around. These people should be helped but making opiate use a crime does nothing to help anyone and puts all of society at risk.
There are complex reasons why people use a given drug, many opiate users are self medicating for psychological issues. Opiates have been shown to have anti-depressant properties [Bodkin JA. et al. (1995)] yet in the US are not allowed to be prescribed for this purpose. why? Psychological and physical pain are believed to be mediated by similar CNS circuits regulated by opioid receptors. Also many fucked up people who live on the streets do use heroin but saying all heroin users are like this is plain ignorant biased sampling. Cause-effect relationship? Conducting studies of opiate addicts on the streets or in prison is like studying the effect of ice cream use on cancer in a hospital yet this is how people study heroin and we think it is okay.
With that off my chest I would like to address the original question:
I have never noticed any potentiation between opiates and hallucinogens. Opiates have a desirable calming effect and can be quite enjoyable in combo w/ hallucinogens but I have never experienced a flash back as you are stating. Benzo's do seem to have a potentiating effect on certain aspects of the experience this may have played a role. What you are saying seems pharmacologically unlikely, however it is possible that your body induced this hallucinogen-state in a half dreamy event. The fact you used DMT earlier may have primed you for this. If you took a large dose it may have been a half dreaming experience. ALthough opiates tend to block dreams ?...but benzo's can give odd dreams for me .... I doubt this is a reproducible effect but a freak event....
If one looks at all the issues claimed to be associated with illicit heroin they will quickly see that every single one (aside from addiction) results from prohibition. No joke go to the DEA site and try this exercise. Prior to prohibition many people used heroin (it is believed the same % of population as today). Heroin and morphine were freely available in a pure form at a cheap price. Rate of use was the same, yet overdoses were less, IV use was less, disease spread was less, heroin associated crime were less.... so what happened? PROHIBITION. Aside from companies marketing it to unsuspecting children and some addiction due to irresponsible doctors there were minimal sociological and health issues associated with its use.
Contemporary Heroin has been made a monster by prohibition however even still many heroin users are not homeless thieving fiends this is a major misconception. Many heroin users are not addicted. see: http://www.jrf.org.uk/sites/files/jrf/1859354254.pdf
Also a significant numbers of the heroin users I have met were not any more irresponsible than others and many of whom you would never suspect used heroin/opiates based on the DARE class stereotypes. How I admit some were reckless and always fucked up nodding out and some died accidently. However had they known the dose they were taking they would still be alive today. People can and do abuse anything even hallucinogens. Alcoholics are just as bad if not worse than hard core junkies to be around. These people should be helped but making opiate use a crime does nothing to help anyone and puts all of society at risk.
There are complex reasons why people use a given drug, many opiate users are self medicating for psychological issues. Opiates have been shown to have anti-depressant properties [Bodkin JA. et al. (1995)] yet in the US are not allowed to be prescribed for this purpose. why? Psychological and physical pain are believed to be mediated by similar CNS circuits regulated by opioid receptors. Also many fucked up people who live on the streets do use heroin but saying all heroin users are like this is plain ignorant biased sampling. Cause-effect relationship? Conducting studies of opiate addicts on the streets or in prison is like studying the effect of ice cream use on cancer in a hospital yet this is how people study heroin and we think it is okay.
With that off my chest I would like to address the original question:
I have never noticed any potentiation between opiates and hallucinogens. Opiates have a desirable calming effect and can be quite enjoyable in combo w/ hallucinogens but I have never experienced a flash back as you are stating. Benzo's do seem to have a potentiating effect on certain aspects of the experience this may have played a role. What you are saying seems pharmacologically unlikely, however it is possible that your body induced this hallucinogen-state in a half dreamy event. The fact you used DMT earlier may have primed you for this. If you took a large dose it may have been a half dreaming experience. ALthough opiates tend to block dreams ?...but benzo's can give odd dreams for me .... I doubt this is a reproducible effect but a freak event....
Bufoman's point of view comes close to my way af looking at it. In a state of sedation, being sort of half asleep, there is so much that can be unleashed from the brain.
And it is so much more likely that this is what happened than some weird pharmacological interaction that is not reproducable.
And it is so much more likely that this is what happened than some weird pharmacological interaction that is not reproducable.
nodice said:
There's so many "other substance" threads you could tag that on.
Ending prohibition can be rationalized as bufoman has effectively shown.nodice said:
It's also worth considering that with prohibition we're helping the taliban and destroying everything we have spent time, money and human lives on to (sort of) build-up in that piece of himalayan real-estate.
Under the current legal conditions and with the consequenses this has for the kind of people you would have to depend on, directly and indirectly, once you would have become addicted to it, you have a good point arguing that being a heroin addict is probably one of the least desireable things.
Being addicted to any substance is undesireable anyway.
I made a post in this thread earlier and I think it needs another one.
On the DMT-Nexus we talk mostly about psychedelics and not only DMT, recently we are adding more and more special sections for different other psychedelics. There is also some sort of social taboo here to talk about 'dirty' drugs like heroin.
Normally I think thats a good thing since thats not the focus of this site. However when someone comes in here and speaks about his DMT experience and later on his heroin use and a probable DMT flashback while using the heroin then I think it IS interesting.
It then hurts me a bit that people start to fall over the heroin use and keep focusing on it instead of the DMT part. The OP already stated that he has trouble with heroin and feels bad about it so we should leave the 'heroin is bad' part just there. This thread is not about the discussion of heroin being bad or not.
Also some people seem to fall over the cross links between the DMT-Nexus and another forum. As you all probably noticed before, when there is an interesting link to another forum I love to keep that link. With the link posted to opiophile.org I see no problem at all, I even think it's something we can learn from: that we have to be careful with the thoughts that we stand above others since there is no above/underneath, just plains of truth! I also see that many people on opiophile.org are very genuine and I like that.
So I ask you all politely to please stop the discussion about cross site linking and the 'heroin is good/bad' idea. I think that saying 'heroin is bad' to a person who has trouble with his addiction is like making a statement about polluted water to someone who has just been in the desert for three days without water. That person doesn't care the water is polluted as long as he can drink something to keep him from dying.
On to a good discussion about what happened to Opiyum.
Kind regards,
The Traveler
On the DMT-Nexus we talk mostly about psychedelics and not only DMT, recently we are adding more and more special sections for different other psychedelics. There is also some sort of social taboo here to talk about 'dirty' drugs like heroin.
Normally I think thats a good thing since thats not the focus of this site. However when someone comes in here and speaks about his DMT experience and later on his heroin use and a probable DMT flashback while using the heroin then I think it IS interesting.
It then hurts me a bit that people start to fall over the heroin use and keep focusing on it instead of the DMT part. The OP already stated that he has trouble with heroin and feels bad about it so we should leave the 'heroin is bad' part just there. This thread is not about the discussion of heroin being bad or not.
Also some people seem to fall over the cross links between the DMT-Nexus and another forum. As you all probably noticed before, when there is an interesting link to another forum I love to keep that link. With the link posted to opiophile.org I see no problem at all, I even think it's something we can learn from: that we have to be careful with the thoughts that we stand above others since there is no above/underneath, just plains of truth! I also see that many people on opiophile.org are very genuine and I like that.
So I ask you all politely to please stop the discussion about cross site linking and the 'heroin is good/bad' idea. I think that saying 'heroin is bad' to a person who has trouble with his addiction is like making a statement about polluted water to someone who has just been in the desert for three days without water. That person doesn't care the water is polluted as long as he can drink something to keep him from dying.
On to a good discussion about what happened to Opiyum.
Kind regards,
The Traveler
Kartikay
Rising Star
I've avoided even looking at this thread until now, but it just keeps on getting bumped so I finally took a peek. Interesting post!
I've had a similar experience (not with heroin, mind you) by having LSD-like experiences while using marijuana. Now you can argue all day long that both are similar in that marijuana is a mild psychoactive/psychedelic. But let's be clear. Marijuana is nowhere near as powerful as LSD. How does marijuana produce these LSD-experiences now that I had used LSD? How does heroin produce DMT-experiences now that the user has used DMT? I'm flabbergasted because I don't see a scientific explanation. I know that it has been scientifically documented that people can have "flashbacks" from other experiences, but that's not an explanation of "how."
Seeing no clear scientific explanation, I resort to philosophy. Maybe there are multiple drugs that allow us to separate our consciousness from our body. Maybe it is easier to push ourselves in that direction after we've done it a few times before. Once we're separated, the drug itself isn't the one acting, it is us who is acting. If you let yourself get separated then who is to say you can't have whatever type of experience you need? A DMT-experience is a much better healer/teacher than heroin.
Or is there some scientific explanation that I'm not aware of? I'm tempted to read through the other posts to see if someone linked or explained it scientifically, but it seems like not many people took the time to address the actual topic. Yes, it's against the DMT-culture to use heroin. Definitely taboo. We get it. No one disagrees with that. Listen to the Traveler. Stop posting heroin-bashing. Even heroin-users hate heroin. I'm curious to find an explanation for the OP topic of the thread.
I've had a similar experience (not with heroin, mind you) by having LSD-like experiences while using marijuana. Now you can argue all day long that both are similar in that marijuana is a mild psychoactive/psychedelic. But let's be clear. Marijuana is nowhere near as powerful as LSD. How does marijuana produce these LSD-experiences now that I had used LSD? How does heroin produce DMT-experiences now that the user has used DMT? I'm flabbergasted because I don't see a scientific explanation. I know that it has been scientifically documented that people can have "flashbacks" from other experiences, but that's not an explanation of "how."
Seeing no clear scientific explanation, I resort to philosophy. Maybe there are multiple drugs that allow us to separate our consciousness from our body. Maybe it is easier to push ourselves in that direction after we've done it a few times before. Once we're separated, the drug itself isn't the one acting, it is us who is acting. If you let yourself get separated then who is to say you can't have whatever type of experience you need? A DMT-experience is a much better healer/teacher than heroin.
Or is there some scientific explanation that I'm not aware of? I'm tempted to read through the other posts to see if someone linked or explained it scientifically, but it seems like not many people took the time to address the actual topic. Yes, it's against the DMT-culture to use heroin. Definitely taboo. We get it. No one disagrees with that. Listen to the Traveler. Stop posting heroin-bashing. Even heroin-users hate heroin. I'm curious to find an explanation for the OP topic of the thread.
nodice
Rising Star
I understand fully that we should keep an open mind in this forum and all, however I do have to say that Heroin effects alot of people and I think it should also be understood that to bring up such conversation is gonna stir up alot of emotion in alot of people including myself.
I have seen first hand the effects of heroin and I find it hard to refrain from saying something about this topic.
I sincerely apologize for if I sounded judgmental in this regard.
I have seen first hand the effects of heroin and I find it hard to refrain from saying something about this topic.
I sincerely apologize for if I sounded judgmental in this regard.
"Marijuana is nowhere near as powerful as LSD."
I disagree completely...if you have a cannabis addiciton and therefore tolerance than no..its not..but if you dont smoke for a month or so and then either smoke enough of it or eat some hash etc..it canbe evern MORE mind altering than anything ive experienced with LSD...its extremely disorientating with loads of uncomfortable mindfuck and time dialation.
I disagree completely...if you have a cannabis addiciton and therefore tolerance than no..its not..but if you dont smoke for a month or so and then either smoke enough of it or eat some hash etc..it canbe evern MORE mind altering than anything ive experienced with LSD...its extremely disorientating with loads of uncomfortable mindfuck and time dialation.
nodice said:
I dunno how would you feel if you had some painfully debilitating disease and people expected you to live that way for the rest of your life without any relief? Of course heroin use can be rationalized..addiciton is another thing..I feel the same way about cannabis actually..lots of people are addicited to things but are so qiick to point the finger at other people..this is called drug snobbery..
Honestly..I have had full on DMT-esque experiences after taking NOTHING..not cannabis, not anything..it just happens sometimes..not often, but it has happened..we have tryptamines in the body..they are there..I dont care what anyone here has to say about it or aboutthis enzyme or that enzyme not being there to make this or that..that fact is that these things DO happen..it's rare but possible.
nodice said:
With all due respect I don't see how that's relevant to this thread. Only yourself.
lolKartikay said:
Does the memory of (of an experience or state of mind) have a neurochemical basis?
data-proteins or something..?
If so, then maybe the horse kicked these memories back to attention?
Was Opiyum drifting through recent, subconscious (dmt) memories when he took the shot?
Anyways,
nice to see dmt got your attention
perhaps it has more to tell you
Another possibly touched on is the heroin was cut with some other pharmacologically active compound. As stated it is unlikely it was a hallucinogen however the drug may have contributed to the half-dreamy state causing the "flash-back". This seems the most likely explanation. Furthermore I recall a batch of heroin in the eastern US had scopolamine in it a few years back, a lower end dose of scop may result in some hallucinations although they are typically of a very different nature than those of DMT.
Sorry to get back into it but I feel this is important to address:
Nodice: You said you know someone whom abused heroin. I have personally lost several close friends to accidental opiate overdoses. It can be very emotional however to say that heroin is thus bad is incorrect. Plenty of people use it without such problems, furthermore prohibition causes many of the problems that one suffers from. Yet still there is a sub population who genuinely abuse it. However I have known people who were obese and kept eating cheeseburgers, does that mean that cheeseburgers are dangerous and cause misery for the eaters and their families..... Should we make cheeseburgers illegal? demonize them....eating is addictive for some people... this may sound ridiculous but if you were brought up in a world were burgers were demonized as heroin is I bet me life most would not think it was absurd... Heroin has been demonized and made into a monster by prohibition...
Sorry to get back into it but I feel this is important to address:
Nodice: You said you know someone whom abused heroin. I have personally lost several close friends to accidental opiate overdoses. It can be very emotional however to say that heroin is thus bad is incorrect. Plenty of people use it without such problems, furthermore prohibition causes many of the problems that one suffers from. Yet still there is a sub population who genuinely abuse it. However I have known people who were obese and kept eating cheeseburgers, does that mean that cheeseburgers are dangerous and cause misery for the eaters and their families..... Should we make cheeseburgers illegal? demonize them....eating is addictive for some people... this may sound ridiculous but if you were brought up in a world were burgers were demonized as heroin is I bet me life most would not think it was absurd... Heroin has been demonized and made into a monster by prohibition...
Now I've got to weigh in with my opinion.
This forum makes me want DMT. I read people's experiences and am fascinated with their industriness and ingenuity at extracting the stuff. Yet I don't like drug use. I tolerate hallucinogens because they seem self-limiting in the sense that they kind of rebuke anyone who might seek to abuse them. They don't provide the escapism of alcohol, pot and worse substances. DMT holds a great mirror to your consciousness - not something someone seeking oblivion may appreciate.
I seek enlightenment without hallucinogens though. I like the people here because they have either had an enlightenment experience, or they want one.
But this thread terrifies me. If I, an absolute square - the total antithesis of a hippy/shaman, sometimes considers ordering some Mimosa seeds or looking for certain Acacia species, what must others open to experimentation feel when they read a thread that ponders the synergy between the scared substance and a highly addictive pain killer?
I totally support those who denounce heroin and the toleration of it at this forum. Those who seek enlightenment don't shy away from pain. Those who seek numbness should keep their influence to opiate forums.
This forum makes me want DMT. I read people's experiences and am fascinated with their industriness and ingenuity at extracting the stuff. Yet I don't like drug use. I tolerate hallucinogens because they seem self-limiting in the sense that they kind of rebuke anyone who might seek to abuse them. They don't provide the escapism of alcohol, pot and worse substances. DMT holds a great mirror to your consciousness - not something someone seeking oblivion may appreciate.
I seek enlightenment without hallucinogens though. I like the people here because they have either had an enlightenment experience, or they want one.
But this thread terrifies me. If I, an absolute square - the total antithesis of a hippy/shaman, sometimes considers ordering some Mimosa seeds or looking for certain Acacia species, what must others open to experimentation feel when they read a thread that ponders the synergy between the scared substance and a highly addictive pain killer?
I totally support those who denounce heroin and the toleration of it at this forum. Those who seek enlightenment don't shy away from pain. Those who seek numbness should keep their influence to opiate forums.
Opiyum
Rising Star
Kartikay said:
There are a few who looked at this objectively and set aside themselves and their personal views and tried to come up with an explanation both in this thread and the one I made a link to in the thread at opiophile.
Infidibulum took a crack at it and so did Paregoric kid(I think I copied his post from opiophile to here so look for his) and so did a few others. Alot have said it was just a freak occurance which it was but still that in itself has to have an explaination. Not that we will ever come to one but man the resulting discussion from it is just awesome. So look around in both this thread and the one at opiophile and just ignore the ones...well you'll know which...and thanks for sharing your thoughts.
I have to say that I am really happy with the way this all has turned out so far. Even those that are disgusted by it have made this thread so worthwhile. We are talking about important things. We are all leaving our comfort zone and some are embracing that, others arent'. So even the posts that aren't about the OP I appreciate because it is getting us all thinking.
I want to extend my sincerest thanks to The Traveler and Infundibulum (SP?) and Soulfood who appear to me to be the three main mods on this forum (though I can't be sure). In any case thank you for letting this thread continue on even though it is obviously causing some of your members (some longtime ones even) some discomfort. That really says a lot on your part and on the part of the DMT NEXUS as a whole to allow a thread that created, unintentionally, so much drama from a relatively new member to continue on.
So thanks and also I want to apologize one more time to those who felt discomfort or pain or were reminded of personal tragedy because of what I posted. There was no ill will involved and it certainly wasn't intentional or meant to provoke you guys.
I would never to do that to a community that has changed my life in such profound ways like yours has.
I have no interest in heroin or experience with it...
But, I do have to say, I appreciate Opiyum's openness, honesty, and willingness to share his question, to share all these details about his personal life. It takes courage!
If there is anything Ayahuasca has taught me, openness is key. It's such an integral part to healing.
I've done things in the past that I, or others, would cast violent judgement upon. Blockages, repressed feelings, destructive tendencies, first have to be acknowledged and addressed, before they can be mobilized and cleared.
If Opiyum is harming himself, or has an underlying spiritual knot that causes him to stray away from facing pain, I can only encourage him to grow in awareness of himself, and cultivate a nonjudgemental space of love where he feels safe to express himself. We are all here to learn--and, DMT is an EXTREMELY powerful tool to help a person face himself!
I don't see any harm in answering a scientific question, or with expressing concerns about heroin use. Both are valid. So is each and every individual's experience.
The important thing is to just be present in a space of love. Love heals, love makes everything grow.
This is what DMT teaches...
Much love to everyone. Thank you all for being here, and for sharing.
But, I do have to say, I appreciate Opiyum's openness, honesty, and willingness to share his question, to share all these details about his personal life. It takes courage!
If there is anything Ayahuasca has taught me, openness is key. It's such an integral part to healing.
I've done things in the past that I, or others, would cast violent judgement upon. Blockages, repressed feelings, destructive tendencies, first have to be acknowledged and addressed, before they can be mobilized and cleared.
If Opiyum is harming himself, or has an underlying spiritual knot that causes him to stray away from facing pain, I can only encourage him to grow in awareness of himself, and cultivate a nonjudgemental space of love where he feels safe to express himself. We are all here to learn--and, DMT is an EXTREMELY powerful tool to help a person face himself!
I don't see any harm in answering a scientific question, or with expressing concerns about heroin use. Both are valid. So is each and every individual's experience.
The important thing is to just be present in a space of love. Love heals, love makes everything grow.
This is what DMT teaches...
Much love to everyone.
Thank you all for being here, and for sharing.