The Atheist DMT Experience

[Garyp88]

HF -

Yeah I really don't know much about the state of the theories about abiogenesis so it's not something I'm going to debate. I certainly don't accept that it is definitely what happened, but any brief time I've spent trying to find out where science is with the origin of life on Earth, I end up finding myself being directed towards abiogenesis. I really have no idea how life got to be here, it's not even a big issue for me. One way or another life got here as something less complex than us, and now here we are. Panspermia sounds very plausible to me. I had never heard that we had found fungi in asteroids. I'll google that, but a link could save me the hassle. Presumably they would have been of a species (if species the right word for fungi) that didn't already exist in the areas surround the meteors landing point? Wouldn't be particularly compelling evidence if the meteor landed in a field of cubes and then they found cubensis spores on it

As far as your experiences with ET's. I don't think subjective experiences would get thrown into TTLG (I hadn't even noticed that section til you mentioned it). If you experience something then you experienced it. That's why I said I wouldn't treat it as something to refute, since I think my views on accepting subjective experiences as veridical are already known. I will say though, my experiences with DMT have often felt like I am literally communicating with real aliens, beings from another dimension, gods or whatever. And I have told friends that I don't necessarily think these are just hallucinations. So it's not like I'm wanting to pounce on your shit and tell you you're crazy I don't believe disbelief is the default position when confronted with these kind of experiences, they feel real to me and I have no real reason to think that they are not possible so it would be naive of me to write them off. But on the flip side, I have no way of verifying or falsifying any of it, so my mind is not entirely convinced. But yeah I understand your position on posting about them and thought that's probably what you'd say.

 

[Hyperspace Fool]

They told me to "Write down everything you have seen"

I tried to ignore the command for years but the phrase and the theme of being a writer just kept repeating and repeating until one day I decided to start writing.

Oh, I write stuff down endlessly. I concur with the advice from your wise entities (of whatever sort they may be). I am just discerning about how and where and to whom I share my most treasured memories.

I have stacks of journals filled with trip reports, dreams (lucid and not), as well as my ostensibly "real" experiences that are even more mind-blowing by virtue of not having ingested anything or having been asleep and dreaming.

I don't think subjective experiences would get thrown into TTLG (I hadn't even noticed that section til you mentioned it).

They do, and the fact that you hadn't noticed it is kind of my point. It is designed not to be noticed.

My reticence is not a slight against you guys, or anyone else on the Nexus. I am sure if the active players on this thread were gathered in a room waiting for some aya to brew... I would happily regale you all with tales that might make the hardiest psychonaut shake their head in frank disbelief.

Alas, this is not a private space. The bulk of the people who read these words are not even members here... let alone comment enough that I could judge their character.

As it is, I feel I contribute a lot to this lovely place. My nearly 1,200 posts tend to be long and thoughtful. I rarely contribute one liners and never put up gibberish. I have made substantial contributions to the Hyperspace Lexicon among other projects, and even shared a number of tips, secrets, and hard won info about things that had not been discussed previously. (posting experiments with novel extraction recipes, methods of insufflating spice without the burn etc.) People may disagree with me here, some of them regularly, but there are no members who know me that think overly poorly of me. Most of my finest dueling partners here I consider to be my friends. TBH, many of you fine people are very near and dear to my heart.

That said, I feel no obligation to share my deepest secrets, open myself publicly, present my fanciful experiences as subjective anecdotes for others to be entertained by or whatever. For, in my experience, that is all they can ever be for other people. The likelihood that anything I say, however intelligently written, will be more than some wild story for the vast majority of readers... is basically nil. I do realize that many of you have your own wild stories, and generally as long as they are phrased as trip reports... people will leave you be or even cheer you on. The waters get murkier when you make claims around here that can not be attributed to chemical reactions in your brain, though.

I have occasionally mentioned some portion of my experience that dealt with sober but incredible subject matter here. Reactions have been mixed, and it never seemed worthwhile to me in the end.

The paranormal is discouraged here. The purely spiritual is tolerated. Philosophy and speculation are encouraged... but actually claiming to have met "real" aliens (or spirits even) without copious disclaimers and a stance that basically denies the veracity of your experience, is beyond frowned upon. I remember threads where defensive and angry materialists came out of the woodwork to unabashedly belittle, denigrate and ridicule whatever poor sap decided to share something of this nature.

It seems odd and counter-intuitive for a bunch of people who purportedly claim to engage in regular use of DMT to be so incredibly closed to things they don't understand. I don't think that anyone who tells such stories expects anyone to take their word for it. And yet, the relentless mocking (especially of posters who don't have such verbal skills to defend themselves) has been known to be extreme. A kind of running mantra here is that if you make fantastic or absurd claims... the burden of proof is on the one making claims. This means that they actually expect you to prove your conjectures or shut up.

I respect that the Nexus is envisioned primarily as a place of rational and reasonable exploration of entheogens with a very pronounced scientific bent... it is a place that prides itself on safety, accurate information, and cogent verifiable TEKs for extracting alkaloids. This is not an area where we want fuzzy headed thinking, or dangerous errors to creep in. It just is also not the ideal venue for explorations of those truly paradigm shattering experiences that some of us have. I am okay with this. I use the Nexus for what it is, and am not interested in pushing the envelope any more than I already do.

In the end, I tend to, as a rule, refrain from telling people things that are too far outside their range of life experience... even in person. I find that this is subconsciously taken as a challenge to their worldview, and that most people react defensively. I have seen enough violent defenses of people's sense of reality to know that if you want to reach people and bring them to the wondrous, you have to A) start from where they are B) take baby steps towards the edge of their comfort zone C) lead them by the hand into realms that they would not enter alone & D) spend a good amount of time helping them to integrate the experience.

Most of those things are impossible on a forum. Even in person, there is only so much you can do. With alien encounters... you can't really call one up on-demand for them. So I find it better to just let it alone. If someone I like comes up to me and is clearly interested in the topic, I might share with them... but even there it is risky, as people tend to talk. And a story like the ones I have are of the sort that people will not be able to keep to themselves. This creates a ripple of perception about you throughout your friend circles... usually not one you would choose to have either.

In the end, there is rarely a good reason to share these things with the uninitiated. If another person has had similar experiences, it is always good to compare notes... but posting this stuff on the Nexus frankly holds no appeal for me. There can be no real benefit for me to do so... and it just might start up an annoying hullabaloo.

Besides, as a writer... I reserve the right to save my best experiences for my own "fiction." 8)

 

[imagine13]

"There is no-end to the writing of words - except to realize that they are senseless."
"Every conversation leads us further from the truth."
"These pictures were meant to guide the dead, through the frightening trials of the underworld - to their final place of illumination."

 

[Eliyahu]

HF..... I hear you.


Obviously I am someone who has gone way, way out on a limb here.

However... for every 20 people who despise me their is possibly one person who can relate to what I am saying and my message becomes a message of hope for those people.

For example the band Tool was very heavily criticized for the song rosetta stoned. This was only because those people had NO IDEA what maynard was talking about.

For me and a few other people though....that song hits the nail on the head..he EXACTLY described the type of DMT and LSD experiences I have had.

And that for me was hope,

If I am the laughing stock of 100 but the insperation of hope to 1 person then I have done my job and I am well pleased.

Definitely not trying to convince you to tread the water I'm treading but I just want to further explain my motivation for saying so much "out there" stuff

Plus I gotta follow orders. :lol:

-E

 

[URBY]

I stand at Elijah's side.

-------

E,
I have a small series of things to tell you,

...:| .. .......

 

[Eliyahu]

I stand at Elijah's side.

I am fully aprriciative of your support however....
The last thing I want to do is create any type of division.

An us against them situation is not a progressive situation and is not productive in any way.

An ideal situation in my mind would be one were the scientific minded people take the visionary experiences of non-scietific people as a serious consideration.

IMO visionary people should look to science as a reference point and scientists should consider visionaries to be their inspiration point.

Many of the modern scientific advancements of today were at one time nothing more than mere sci-fi fantasy. Had it not been for visions of popular science fiction in the 1950's we may not today have some of the technology that we now take for granted.

IMO a society that is afraid to dream is a society that is in danger of becoming obsolete.

Visionaries are meant to give direction and soul to science and science is meant to be the backbone and driving force of technological progression.

 

[URBY]

I did not intend to imply there were differing sides. I argue nothing with that statement.
------
What an excellent proposition of a relationship between two frames of reference. To that notion I ask:

We have allowed the technology of science fiction to manifest, why not everything else?

 

[Eliyahu]

I thought we were talking about whether or not Religious anti-gay activists had homosexual tendencies or not, and how religion can cause such things by repression.

For the record, nothing I said was anti-gay, I dont take any anti-gay position, and hope that no one was offended in the process of calling out Eliyahu's promiscuous activities.

So, HYPER SPACEFOOL, since my knowledge on de-cyphering codes in the bible is lacking (and yours seem educated) I am interested in anything you would say about ---> post #243.

Man this thread is awesome, just wish I had more knowledge about some stuff, cause you guys will go on a tangent I have no clue about. But am learning =)

Thanks for openin' er' back up Jamie!!


Just to clarify bible codes and kabbalah are really not the same thing...Kabbalah is a more of a metaphorical system than a true code.

Bible code was a thing that claimed to spell out the future and current events to some degree, to my knowledge.

As exciting as it sounds I believe the bible code thing was pretty well debunct.
because they did similar things with books like war and peace.

Actually, Gematria and other cryptology tools have been a part of Qabbalah since there were books on the subject. The Ari, Moshe Cordevero and all of their contemporaries used this stuff. I would say that Bible Codes are a subset of Qabbalah... a branch of a much larger practice which includes all manner of esoteric information.

See my post above as to why being able to analyze codes in War & Peace in no way diminishes the truths to be found in using such codes to unlock the Torah.

Sorry to jump backwards so far but I just wanted to clarify that by bibe code I was talking about a pop cultural phenomena that took place about ten years ago when an ex goverment codes expert thought he discovered a hidden code in the bible that revealed the future and they were finding words like bin laden in there and what not...

I don't think that's what you were talking about when you said bible code...

It just sorta comes to my mind though when the phrse bible code is mentioned..

 

[Eliyahu]

I did not intend to imply there were differing sides. I argue nothing with that statement.
------
What an excellent proposition of a relationship between two frames of reference. To that notion I ask:

We have allowed the technology of science fiction to manifest, why not everything else?

Maybe it's just not time yet....but it's gettin' there

 

[LiquidGlass]

I have a very close friend who is an atheist, and from what I understand atheists do not believe in a spirit/soul, so it would technically be impossible for an atheist to have a " spiritual " experience. Profound and mystical yes, but to say spiritual would IMO be the wrong term for an atheist, being that atheists believe we are just a skin bag of meat and bones with some chemical reactions going on. In the traditional use of the word spirit or spiritual, it implies that we have a spirit/soul that transcends our physical body. I don't think that really coincides with atheist beliefs.

 

[3rdI]

They can easily have a "spiritual" experience, it would just mean that what they previously believed is wrong.

 

[Hyperspace Fool]

@ Eliyahu & URBY

I appreciate where you guys are coming from. I really do. I am also not afraid to push the envelope... I do it all the time. A great deal of what I post on the Nexus goes right up to the edge and leans heavily on the borderline.

I suppose it is just that I know how things go here. This is not the first or even tenth thread I have been involved with that was a button pusher. I was a rebellious sort in my youth, and I am still willing and able to take unpopular or confrontational stances if I think there is good enough reason to do so.

For me, your statistic about reaching 1 while alienating 100 is just not a worthwhile endeavor, considering that I already reach dozens and alienate a tiny few perhaps. (just judging from comments and PMs... actual numbers are probably exponentially higher if you factor in guests.) In general I think reaching 100 and alienating 1 is better than the other way around. Different strokes I suppose.

At any rate, nothing I would say here about my experiences would actually be of much help to anyone compared to, say, a new grass TEK or talking down someone who's having a freak out. The most I could hope for in this situation is to 1) Entertain people 2) Spark a burning curiosity that won't easily be fulfilled & 3) Confirm for others out there that they are not the only one to have had such an experience.

1 & 2 I tend to do anyway 8) & 3 gets touched on from time to time... I just feel there are other forums for discussions like that. And even on those forums, I am still of the opinion that somethings are just better left unsaid.

The only way for me to talk about my experiences with aliens, telepathy, prophecy and other currently unexplainable phenomena here is to couch it as speculation and leave open the idea that I might be deranged, a provocateur, trolling for attention... or worse. No thank you. I know what I know. Nothing anyone can say about these things will sway me. I am well beyond the room for doubt.

I will stick to the subjects I tend to get some traction on... subjects that are somewhat easier to transmit useful information on like Lucid Dreaming, Yogic arts, combining meditation with entheogen use, and toss in some relatively objective information about mystical and occult subject matter from time to time. As it is, these things still get me in hot water upon occasion. (like the epic thread where I mentioned that my Sifu coult throw me across the room without touching me...)

Considering that I don't want to have those "debates" (generally just angry name calling) I should probably not even mention these things at all... I know I must come across as a horrible tease. Oh well.
:roll:

 

[Korey]

liquidglass,

I'm an agnostic atheist and I have quite profound "spiritual" experiences quite often.

Spirituality is something internal for me, though, it isn't magic to me, it isn't some external force. It's me completely stripped of everything and experiencing myself at my core, it's me looking straight into the mirror, my inner self being viewed as an externalization for a few brief moments before eternity dissipates and I find myself in a room, staring at the wall in complete wonder and gratitude, tears tumbling down my face and eventually soaking my lips which are always definitely wholeheartedly grinning in sincere appreciation.

Then I take the dog out and pay my bills.

 

[LiquidGlass]

Korey, kinda sounds like when I get back to my room, except I have a cat. I was just on another forum in a thread about the meaning of the word spirituality and my take on it is this,

I happen to see being spiritual as believing that we have a spirit/soul, and that maybe that energy force exists and persists beyond our physical body. And that things we do in this life may affect the quality of our experience in other planes of existence.

I feel you on the fact that DMT puts you deeply in touch with yourself and your subconscious , but I don't feel like that light energy force that makes me is confined to this plane of existence.

I grew up going to a baptist church, and was baptized and saved and all that, and actually believed in it, but as I became an adolescent and began to form my own ideas about our universe it lost all meaning for me. Then I found psychedelics and alan watts and my whole perspective transformed.

 

[Crazyhorse]

Wouldn't it be interesting if atheists had fundamentally different experiences on DMT than "believers"? Like only seeing abstract patterns and such rather than contact with entities and journeys to other worlds? But it doesn't seem to work that way, what you believe in apparently doesn't matter too much. You're going to get shown whatever you're going to get shown, and pretty much all you can do is put either a rational or spiritual spin on it for yourself when you come back, depending on your preference. Or at least that's how it seems to me.

 

[LiquidGlass]

I will say that I have been in some pretty deep places inside myself through the use of psychedelics and practice of meditation. One time I ate way too many geltabs and my experience was reduced to what could best be described as a single cell floating through a vascular like system. I had no consciousness or subconscious, no memery of anything before, it was as if that was all there ever was. We were at a drum circle and apparently I was sitting of by the water and when my friend came to check on me I had the crazy eyes and was babbling nonsense. Coming down was like waking from a dream, I snapped back to reality in an instant, I was standing too, and %100 sober.

What I'm getting at is that prob brought me deeper in myself than ill ever go, and that experience was nothing close to the place that DMT takes. Just sayin . . .

 

[olympus mon]

Wouldn't it be interesting if atheists had fundamentally different experiences on DMT than "believers"? Like only seeing abstract patterns and such rather than contact with entities and journeys to other worlds? But it doesn't seem to work that way, what you believe in apparently doesn't matter too much. You're going to get shown whatever you're going to get shown, and pretty much all you can do is put either a rational or spiritual spin on it for yourself when you come back, depending on your preference. Or at least that's how it seems to me.

Interesting thoughts here. I find it quite amazing that I've met the being that called itself God multiple times and I'm an atheist. At first it was tempting to believe in God but after integrating these strange experiences it only reinforced my non belief. I have an open mind but a skeptics heart. If there was a God I think there would be solid evidence for that being. It makes nonsense to me that an all powerful omnipotent creator can exist without ever leaving a single trace. Its illogical at best just plain silly IMO.

 

[Korey]

Liquidglass,

"Spirituality is the concept of an ultimate or an alleged immaterial reality;[1] an inner path enabling a person to discover the essence of his/her being; or the "deepest values and meanings by which people live."

My use of psychedelics could be considered spiritual with the above definition in mind(Ann Shulgin would have you believe ANYONE involved in taking psychedelics was on a spiritual journey) could be considered spiritual. The only part I don't completely jive with is "immaterial reality" because my personal spirituality is a product of the physical realm, and the ones I have "on the other side" are still reached through complete physical processes.

This doesn't make it any less meaningful to me, it actually makes it more interesting and personal for me. I'm not saying that there ISN'T a "spiritual realm", but I personally believe that for me, if I were to completely embrace the ideology that the "spiritual realms" exist somehow autonomously and that I was somehow reaching ULTIMATE reality purely through the metabolization of a drug, and to allow this to hijack my worldview and be my ONLY worldview, well, I would be too much of a flake to even have explored my mind with psychedelics in the first place.

I'm more comfortable embracing science, and my own personal inner paths to outer space, all the while reminding myself that it could ALL be illusion, and that I probably don't know much of anything, except myself. I can jive with getting in complete tune with myself, and the only word I can use to describe that feeling, that complete oneness with everything which seems to be achieved only when I'm in complete tune with MYSELF, as spiritual.

Peace ;p

edit: that took me forever to write, lol, I'm enjoying about 4 grams of cubes right now

Also, in regards to the post about everyone having similar experiences, I can't remember the person's user name right now, but if I recall he considers himself spiritual but he had never had a spiritual experience with DMT. If you're reading this feel free to chime in

 

[Crazyhorse]

Interesting thoughts here. I find it quite amazing that I've met the being that called itself God multiple times and I'm an atheist. At first it was tempting to believe in God but after integrating these strange experiences it only reinforced my non belief. I have an open mind but a skeptics heart.

Right, that's exactly the kind of thing I was thinking of. And I think this is the key to answering the OP's original question. He wanted to understand how an atheist could have a transformative experience without it being "spiritual", as if a religious person would see angels and demons but an atheist wouldn't be able to experience something like that and still get something useful out of it, because it would be in conflict with their beliefs.

But I think the difference is all about how the experience is interpreted, rather than the content of the experience itself. Let's say that Olympus Mon had the exact same vision that Eliyahu describes in his "how I got my name" thread. Would this force him to start believing in the objective reality of God and angels, and make him want to read up on all the stories of Elijah? Not at all. Although he might, I'm sure that some "non-believers" have been converted to a more spiritual viewpoint by using psychedelics. But as a person with a strong rational tendency instead of taking it literally he would most likely analyze that "vision" similar to how you would interpret a dream, and think something like "hm, well those 'angels' probably represented my desire for self improvement and personal growth, and those demon things were all the doubts and fears getting in the way of accomplishing my goals. And being told I'm a biblical figure and cheered by the crowd like that might mean I'm feeling a little unimportant and underappreciated in my life right now, I should try to do something about that." And then this understanding could lead him to work harder to achieve his ambitions and get more of the recognition he is lacking in his everyday life, thereby increasing his overall personal happiness and satisfaction. All without any need to adopt a belief in God.

Just as one possible example. Maybe I'm way off base, but that's more or less how it appears to me.

 

[LiquidGlass]

Korey I agree with most of what you said except that definition of spirituality is just one definition and there are several.

Also in regards to the place DMT takes you, I talked with a shaman at burning man who had performed thousands of ceremonies and a some people would question him about being able to access these worlds without the use of psychedelics. While he did agree that through yoga, meditation, and breath work you can reach the states of mind that allow you to experience unifying themes of love, light, and oneness that DMT can experience, but that DMT gains you access to a world not accessible by any other means.

Not sure where im going with this really, just throwing it out there

Happy trails . . .