The Atheist DMT Experience

[Hyperspace Fool]

I'm just curious as why the DMT experience would need to be marginalised in any sense to fit one's secular tool kit. DMT is an experience like no other, if it's not a spiritual god like experience than what is it? How about we readjust our presumptiously overidentifing perception of the juedo-christian god into a god that is within us. Perhaps all around us. Or we change the word god into life?

In truth, we don't need to marginalize it. It certainly matters very little how we choose to compartmentalize the spice experience... because it surely blows all such boxes to smithereens in the first 5 seconds of every journey. I for one am generally content to leave those boxes annihilated.

However, this thread was started to discuss the Atheist DMT experience, and a few of us rather enjoy these kinds of debates... if only because they make you think again about what you actually believe and why you feel inclined to believe it. This is always useful IMO.

Other people claim this is a waste of time... generally if the arguments threaten their belief system too much, or if it really and truly does bore them to discuss this stuff. No matter, no one is forced to read this thread or participate. (Though I still want to hear from my old sparring partner Citta about my deconstruction of the term Atheism earlier.)

We have kind of gotten away from the actual Atheist experience of DMT and gotten into the related topics of Atheism as a belief system, what is actually knowable, and the nature of the DMT experience itself. Still, this is a valid progression. Many people have reported starting off atheist and having DMT change their mind. Many atheists are happy to report their atheism was unchallenged by their experiences with spice. Some are still on the fence. Thus, getting at the roots of the belief that was or wasn't challenged is only natural.

My interest in this at the moment is trying to point out that the experiences which some of the atheists have claimed to have are more challenging to their atheism than they seem to have given them credit. This is because their understanding of Theism is somewhat limited.

You yourself defaulted, as many do, to a Judeo-Christian or Abrahamic conception of G*d. However this is only a tiny branch of Theism, and it is perfectly normal to completely reject the rather comical anthropomorphic deity depicted in the Bible and still fall under the much larger umbrella of Theism.

People who avoid the use of the word god, but substitute the words universe, life, cosmos, infinity etc. into sentences where the word god would also fit... are theists. Theism doesn't require you to understand the exact nature of deity; it doesn't require that your concept of deity care about humanity; it doesn't require that your conception think like humans; it doesn't even require that your ideation of divinity take any action whatsoever in the universe.

Unless you believe everything is pure chaos, and that all that we see is just an extremely rare happy accident... you probably fit under one of the branches of theism. In fact, there are theistic beliefs that cover that situation as well. Discordianism for example... All hail Eris!



At any rate, belief in a Big Bang and a universe that unfolds according to mechanistic laws is a form of theism. In fact, it is also a faith-based belief system. The big questions underlying it are left unanswered and are rarely even taken into consideration by those who take them as gospel. Where did all this matter and energy come from; why was it in a tiny little space; what caused it to inflate; why are these fundamental laws of nature in place and how are they kept there?

A purely mechanical, clockwork universe... with or without the Grand Clockmaker... is a form of theism. It leads philosophically to Newton's religious concept (and that of most Enlightenment thinkers and scientists for that matter including America's founding fathers for the most part) Deism. While Deism usually invokes a Prime Mover or Master Builder who designed the mechanistic universe and let it run... there are plenty of other related theistic concepts where the machine builds itself through trial and error or even stranger concepts.

I guess I have rambled on enough for now. I suspect a number of my rational materialist buddies are chomping at the bit to tear into me for my various blasphemies.

 

[Eliyahu]

hyperspace fool wrote:

You yourself defaulted, as many do, to a Judeo-Christian or Abrahamic conception of G*d. However this is only a tiny branch of Theism, and it is perfectly normal to completely reject the rather comical anthropomorphic deity depicted in the Bible and still fall under the much larger umbrella of Theism.

What happened to me was I was a young delinquent who took LSD every weekend then one day I met an angel. That Angel turned out to be Jewish,...for the record i did not force my hallucinations to become Jewish out of some desperate desire to make sense out of my psychedelic experiences.

I was not raised by any religious people and I had no reason to want religion in my life at all. I took LSD to "expand my mind" or something like that. I did not consider god at all. But in fact it was God that considered me. Obviously many people think it's intellectually superior to think of god sort of like it's a Santa Claus type neurosis of some kind.
I would beg to differ.


olympus mon said:

I feel the title of this thread isn't the best. Ill use myself as example. I am a stone called atheist and an even stone colder anti religionist. I've worked with shamans in far away lands and deeply with plant teachers and medicines. I have a skeptical approach to all facets of life and ideas but feel I am keep an open mind. I don't take things at face value as many do and need more evidence to take a stance than simple self evident experiences. I have fooled myself and have been fooled.

No offense but classifying yourself as a stone cold anything represents a refusal to be open minded to the subject. I mean no disrespect but how could you have an open mind yet be so totally closed to the completely rational idea that a single being created the entire universe?

My title for this thread may have not been the greatest but it reflected my genuine curiosity to know more about what people who claimed to be atheists experienced during a DMT trip.
------------------------------------------------------------

this thread has by far exceeded my expectations for quite colorfully demonstrating the many flaws that I perceive to be inherent in the Atheist way of thinking. I trust that anyone with a reasonable ability to perceive the truth will do so here quite easily.

My gracious thanks to every one for their participation in this thread thus far. I like to think that it makes for a hell of a read no matter what your opinion may be on the matter.

-e

 

[Jarl Von Hoother]

hyperspace fool wrote:

No offense but classifying yourself as a stone cold anything represents a refusal to be open minded to the subject. I mean no disrespect but how could you have an open mind yet be so totally closed to the completely rational idea that a single being created the entire universe?

Yeah I think hyperspace fool might have stolen the words off my tongue when saying don't close your mind in regards to what DMT and us nexians. I mean we are it's great progenators of our generation on planet earth. If they are somewhat relgious than do we want ot provoke apostacy and complete rejection of DMT. Meaning we are going to bring out ALL kinds of things from DMT and lets certainly NOT close the doors to OUR own Alexandrian library like with sciences double edged methodical exlucisivity, even relgion, politics included! we are providing a social service, organize effort and awareness of DMT. and if that gets the atheist's attention remember Atheism is meant to liberate the intellectual curiousity not segregate themselves from believers. but really if you go by any belief than you're just as guilty to be seen praying to your books on science and groveling at theacademic alters in admiration to nietzsche or dawkins like they were your very own idol. Now Lets continue but first wash our hands after digging in the grime of dark ages and redeem our scientific relgion to DMT with discussions not involving 'sheep' calling I know how much you guys like the word, but remember we're all people here who look up into the stars and wonder just how infinite the world is?

'We all need someone or something new to help get us through'

here we've got eachother.

 

[Hyperspace Fool]

hyperspace fool wrote:

No offense but classifying yourself as a stone cold anything represents a refusal to be open minded to the subject. I mean no disrespect but how could you have an open mind yet be so totally closed to the completely rational idea that a single being created the entire universe?

Yeah I think hyperspace fool might have stolen the words off my tongue when saying don't close your mind in regards to what DMT and us nexians. I mean we are it's great progenators of our generation on planet earth. If they are somewhat relgious than do we want ot provoke apostacy and complete rejection of DMT. Meaning we are going to bring out ALL kinds of things from DMT and lets certainly NOT close the doors to OUR own Alexandrian library like with sciences double edged methodical exlucisivity, even relgion, politics included! we are providing a social service, organize effort and awareness of DMT. and if that gets the atheist's attention remember Atheism is meant to liberate the intellectual curiousity not segregate themselves from believers. but really if you go by any belief than you're just as guilty to be seen praying to your books on science and groveling at theacademic alters in admiration to nietzsche or dawkins like they were your very own idol. Now Lets continue but first wash our hands after digging in the grime of dark ages and redeem our scientific relgion to DMT with discussions not involving 'sheep' calling I know how much you guys like the word, but remember we're all people here who look up into the stars and wonder just how infinite the world is?

'We all need someone or something new to help get us through'

here we've got eachother.

Hey there JVH...

While I have written quite a bit on this thread of late, and the quote you put above is not something I disagree with per se... It isn't from me. I do believe that blurb comes from our friend and OP Eliyahu.

Anyway, just thought I would mention it.
8)

 

[mescaline-man]

**

 

[Jarl Von Hoother]

Oh okay. I 'm trying to treat this thread as if it were an apologic conversation about my supremely relgious mother's and my conversations about zeitgeist and my ego building totem pole ravings about Jesus's message being misconstrued when he said only he was god, and that we're all gods and how he first realised it trying to spread his crazy message to all humanity knowing it as a personal aknowledgement of his spiriutal redemption by just believing himself as human bing with infinite potential. And somewhere everytime I tell anyone this they all ask... "do you believe in jesus christ as your lord and saviour"

I 'm like what? a guy a from two millenium ago... If we did meet I might've trusted the guy, yeah. but what? <- i never said that

I say yes just to keep the dark clouds away from their halos as they drive me across the interstate, eyes narrowed like compound eyes draped around crosses, they have somehwhat of a bitter frown, as an entire horde of hayburning mongolians urge their way through complacent chinese walls and charge between two confounded lips galloping mad!

 

[Fronnis]

I do not believe in a god, and neither do I believe in existentialism.
My psychedelic drug use has not changed my thoughts: on the contrary, it has boosted and consolidated them.

 

[The Electric Hippy]

I'm just curious as why the DMT experience would need to be marginalised in any sense to fit one's secular tool kit. DMT is an experience like no other, if it's not a spiritual god like experience than what is it? How about we readjust our presumptiously overidentifing perception of the juedo-christian god into a god that is within us. Perhaps all around us. Or we change the word god into life?

If we were to do that, we would then have to redefine what the word God meant. As of right now, this is the dictionary definition of God:

Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!

dictionary.reference.com

noun

1. the one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe.
2. the Supreme Being considered with reference to a particular attribute: the God of Islam.
3. ( lowercase ) one of several deities, especially a male deity, presiding over some portion of worldly affairs.
4. ( often lowercase ) a supreme being according to some particular conception: the god of mercy.
5. Christian Science . the Supreme Being, understood as Life, Truth, love, Mind, Soul, Spirit, Principle.


The limitations of this word (and the different ways it is used) is what forces me to define myself as an atheist. Hyperspace Fool wrote about Pantheism, and after doing some research I find myself agreeing with that mentality a lot... except for the phrase "The Universe is God". Using a dictionary definition, I can't claim to believe in God, unless I removed the Christianity out of the 5th example, and even then that word (God) does no justice to describe what a Pantheist actually believes, so the phrase "The Universe is God" becomes utterly meaningless.

I wish someone would come up with a word that was similar to God but distinct enough to not draw imagery of something that I'm not talking about i.e the Judeo-Christian God.

 

[Kryptos]

I'd say I'm a pretty hardcore atheist in that I don't necessary exclude the idea of a God-like being, (especially after Hyperspace) but I exclude the idea of a being more powerful than me, you, your neighbor, his dog, etc. Not physically powerful, but on a greater plane of existence. Heaven, maybe, based on Judeo-Christian beliefs.

Now, to answer the actual question, I have never met anything I'd describe as a "God". Most of my visits to hyperspace have been just that, visits to a different dimension. This dimension has it's own inhabitants, and while I cannot fully describe them, I would equate the feeling to being invited to a highly exclusive party where you are obviously nowhere near the top of the social ladder, but are in no way looked down upon for being lesser. Of course, this invitation always seems to come with the expectation that one leaves in a reasonable period of time. While I wouldn't say I have met God, or spiritual beings, I have met some kind of entities that can both welcome you and can turn you away, but both as an equal.

Sorry that this post seems to break a discussion cycle, but the topic caught my eye and was too enticing to pass up.

 

[Hyperspace Fool]

If we were to do that, we would then have to redefine what the word God meant. As of right now, this is the dictionary definition of God:

Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!

dictionary.reference.com

noun

1. the one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe.
2. the Supreme Being considered with reference to a particular attribute: the God of Islam.
3. ( lowercase ) one of several deities, especially a male deity, presiding over some portion of worldly affairs.
4. ( often lowercase ) a supreme being according to some particular conception: the god of mercy.
5. Christian Science . the Supreme Being, understood as Life, Truth, love, Mind, Soul, Spirit, Principle.


The limitations of this word (and the different ways it is used) is what forces me to define myself as an atheist. Hyperspace Fool wrote about Pantheism, and after doing some research I find myself agreeing with that mentality a lot... except for the phrase "The Universe is God". Using a dictionary definition, I can't claim to believe in God, unless I removed the Christianity out of the 5th example, and even then that word (God) does no justice to describe what a Pantheist actually believes, so the phrase "The Universe is God" becomes utterly meaningless.

I wish someone would come up with a word that was similar to God but distinct enough to not draw imagery of something that I'm not talking about i.e the Judeo-Christian God.

Well EH, what I can say in response to this is that the dictionary is not the arbiter of the concept of god(s) but merely a shorthand for the word's more common usages. Philosophy and Theology have literally thousands of voluminous tomes dealing with just what is meant by this word, and it is quite a bit more nuanced than what Merriam Webster has put forth in this particular entry.

Of course, if you looked up the word dimensions in the dictionary, you would find no reference to the 10+ dimensions of string theory or the many worlds interpretation... yet, you would be hard pressed to find a physicist who was unaware of these concepts or thought that the word was ill applied there.

For starters, in any in depth argument over the meaning of a term or the concepts involved in its study I would say that an encyclopedia entry would be a more valid jumping off point. Wikipedia is not authoritative by any stretch of the imagination, but it is quite a bit more useful here than a simple collegiate dictionary entry.
Conceptions of God - Wikipedia

This is actually a decent essay/primer, and begins by very clearly stating that the kind of deity which you speak of is perfectly acceptable to refer to as god. Here are two varieties that work rather well IMO...

* the Ultimate, the summum bonum, the Absolute Infinite, the Transcendent, or Existence or Being itself;

* the ground of being, the monistic substrate, that which we cannot understand, etc.

Notice in this essay that many religions and philosophies the world over use this word in ways which don't trigger your innate repulsive reaction. If Pantheism doesn't quite fit your feelings, Pandeism might... in either case, I prefer a little entheism in that mix personally.

Apropos to this particular thread is the fact that the very term for this class of hallucinogens is entheogen. (within, divinity, creating) Thus, a group of rational minded scientist saw fit to proclaim that drugs like DMT are able to create a connection to, or feeling of deity/ divinity within us.

Something to consider.

Finally, though, if the word gives you the willies, you are perfectly within your rights to use words like Universe, Infinite, Oneness or whatever. If you read enough about the various branches of Theism, you will see that there is an umbrella there for basically every conception or non-conception. Nontheism is even a type of theism, and makes a strong case for the idea that atheism is actually nontheism with a fierce anti-religionist bent.

Be well my friend, nice to toss these ideas around with you.

HF

 

[Jarl Von Hoother]

The etymological differences in what I strive to deem worthy as a god is naturally by felt experience in my mere musing upon the flexibility of the word which to myself somehow remains from my own psychedelic experiences as the very state of having a flexible consciousness which lets 'me' just kinda shed my 'armor of all adversity; philosophy' (quoting shakespeare) to sort of bask in each new admiration of myself, as if meeting myself for the first time. I'd go on saying "this is the perfect body this is the perfect one body I've been waiting for that found me" or something comming up.

What feels like is touching your soul than and there in your greatest bliss, not your desires, not your fears, not what you hear, think, see, feel, not what you know about yourself, but what you don't at all... it's all the illusions that shapes our every definition... and suddenly than and there we may cease to know if we ourselves make our own valuations of the world, but it's really our sheepish nature that just wants to float on, all martyrdom all just one way parade drive to uncertain death, to be so fearless to have some excuse to die! but, Being alive acts like a big bad wolf all alone romping for little red riding hood etc, but reminds me of a prowling and frightened animal by appearance stifling through the scary jungle. you see it. modesty. too much of it if you ask me.

You know man can't be the estimation of all there is. He wouldn't be powerful, he would just realize hey I'm here, I'll die one day. fuck - than that's it anyway. We all have an innate need to glorify something to glorify our own existence! consumers! ...unless you like forests or bum on beaches.

No I think man came here to figure himself out, his friends included than one day he met a girl, she f**ked him over for a better looking guy who in class man watched him score low on english and science- "man than thought ahaha I can read my darling my poem '1x1=1' he has no chance!" skipping to the next period than man saw this same doofus get A+ in home economics, but even majoring in puritanism. Man walked home sad that day head down low. He thought he'd work up to her minimum standards at least and began trying to cook, but burned his toast to a chard. and tried reading past Exodus in the bible but it seemed too stupid. reading about all those great goodly men. Man grew envious of this illiterate Susy-home making everyman's man. Tomorrow was the dance and man was so jealous of this charlatan he felt troubled and confused. That same night Man snuck into his house while every man's man looked asleep in his bed he, Man just seething in a jealous rage he looked around quietly to pick up any hard blunt thing he could find, looking for anything he felt an almost warm familiar touch of a laminated school book cover. holding it high aiming down, but looking curiously and just before he would hit him on the head this every man's man wouldn't wake up for the dance even if god depended upon it so he wouldn't take away Man's girl, Man looked in a jaded moment of bitter irony to see what book it would be. that would put out such a stud...drum roll....he swung so hard he could barely see it- wait! SLAM! ..."philosophy??"
as he struck, -not a science book would put this man down, nor math?, but he wondered philosophy?! just the recorded doubts, just methodical apparatus of alienation? mere justifications of one's inadequacies? than man realized something... everyman's man was gone, and he had just hit pillow designed to look like him, while... he was away..
Man felt tried, and angry and shameful all at the same time. he walked and he walked and on his way home he saw every man's man over at his very own house in his spiffy car. Man ran up confused to him confused and every while every man's man over-politely in a leave it to beaver sorta way said goodbye to Man's parents. Man ran up to him after his parent's door closed, Every man's man turned around and said hey, lone Man say you look quite alone tonight. but Man said "what are you going to take my parents to the prom and f**k them too?" casually every man's man turned away and said "No way man I snuck out tonight to deliver bibles on peoples doorstep". shaking his and walked away he shouting "see you at the prom, don't come alone now haha! god bless" Man looked down at the bible every man's man left with Man's name, over zealously engraved in gold
Man opened up the bible reading walking to his bedroom grumbling "seeyat the prom dont comalone a$$" though confused and tired, he realized it had been rendered. the pages had been replaced with photocopies of college lined paper with everyman's man's hand writing and the atomic structure on the first page. Man flipped through the strange book under his portch light and he saw a weird code: 2-(1H-indol-3-yl)-N,N-dimethylethanamine and flipping he saw music notes with lines pointing each paralleled to graphed algorithms in a spiral, calculus equations, his girl friend nude was on a drawing that as Man turned through it in disbelief it seemed to come to life as he flipped through it, she seemed to turn more real and real until her hand reached out of the colorful portal of proverbial words, Man through the strange book out the window. Subsequently hearing an "Ouch!!" -he thought it even sounded like her and Man's girl friend hopped through his room. "My darling!" he exclaimed, backing away. Hey, Man, oh sorry to sneak up on you like that she laughed in a gigglely laugh, but I swear something came and hit me in the head," Man shrugged his shoulder, she said, "well it couldn't have been a bible with a Marlin manson poster like that on your wall" and said "i missed you so much, Im so cold" she kissed him, laying down Man asked "hey whatever happened to every man's man? .man asked half concerned... "oh" she said, "he's too nice, you know I even thought about murdering him with my sex ed book tonight!" "well... you could certainly show me a thing or two" said the Man. "Come on lets go to my house, she said "while my mom's away and you can at least help me put on my prom dress!" walking out the door just past his window by the street Man said wait, running back to see if everything in that book was still there, opening it "man, what are you doing we got a big day tomorrow" Man picked it up, pausing and opening it once again...reading "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. She must be quiet." Timothy 2:12 -Man flipped in disbelif once again "Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses." Samuel 15:3
he dropped the stupid book, kicking it in the street gutter. They walked away hand and hand. Man half-jokingly asked so for that murder tonight I was thinking about using some philosophy, and maybe to learn how to use philosophy like a hammer" -'O man' she exclaimed like happy lovers again. THE end

 

[Purges]

I am an agnostic, but lean towards theism, possibly due to my upbringing. How ever I was leaning towards atheism before DMT. Over the weekend I shared some spice with friends, one who said that NOTHING would ever convince her that there was a God, to which I asked "even if you had a 'face to face' with such a being?" as I believe I have. Now, having said that, part of me always thinks that it was just the product of taking an incredibly strong drug. This, for me, is where the validity of such experiences comes into question. The fact that it is a naturally occuring substance, found in most living organisms, and the fact that so many people relay very similar experiences leads me to think that I may have come into contact with 'the source' and that this suibstance is here for people like you and me, who feel the need to seek out such things. Never the less, I remain 'agnostic' - because I know the nature of the mind and reality are slippery things, science explains things to a degree, sure, but not enough for my liking, same goes for religion / spirituality.

I really want to give this person more DMT*. I want her to experience it and then come back to me . Another friend of mine was in a heap in tears after her experience, no doubt what she experienced was majestic and divine on an epic scale. I know the feeling. But to put a name to it, to categorise it, does it, and you a dis-service IMO.

*I would also love to give Richard Dawkins a large dose of DMT and see what he has to say...

 

[○]

I am an agnostic, but lean towards theism, possibly due to my upbringing. How ever I was leaning towards atheism before DMT. Over the weekend I shared some spice with friends, one who said that NOTHING would ever convince her that there was a God, to which I asked "even if you had a 'face to face' with such a being?" as I believe I have. Now, having said that, part of me always thinks that it was just the product of taking an incredibly strong drug. This, for me, is where the validity of such experiences comes into question. The fact that it is a naturally occuring substance, found in most living organisms, and the fact that so many people relay very similar experiences leads me to think that I may have come into contact with 'the source' and that this suibstance is here for people like you and me, who feel the need to seek out such things. Never the less, I remain 'agnostic' - because I know the nature of the mind and reality are slippery things, science explains things to a degree, sure, but not enough for my liking, same goes for religion / spirituality.

I really want to give this person more DMT*. I want her to experience it and then come back to me . Another friend of mine was in a heap in tears after her experience, no doubt what she experienced was majestic and divine on an epic scale. I know the feeling. But to put a name to it, to categorise it, does it, and you a dis-service IMO.

*I would also love to give Richard Dawkins a large dose of DMT and see what he has to say...

Taking a really intense substance doesn't really throw any validity outa the basket imho. I've said it before, and it might sound redundant to some..but the fact that nature over the course of aeons evolved such a complexity as plants and their organic synthesis of these seemingly universal compounds to be able to be taken into the nervous system of another being, which in turn allows a temporary release of of mind from body..temporarily transcending everything in the physical....that just throws more eggs in the basket for me in regards to the validity of this molecules purpose and the experience it provides.

It's truly an incredible thing that nature has allowed such a symbiosis of sorts. If all thats possible, then whos to say that coming into contact with the bottom rung of existence isn't possible with this substance? When I say "bottom rung" I'm referring to the this universal awareness that pervades every single thing we know of.

And on the regards of your friend.....give him moreeeee. :twisted:

And it's not so much the CEVs that solidify my beliefs, but the recurring insight that reverberates through the higher-dose experiences... hence my username.

 

[The Electric Hippy]

Well EH, what I can say in response to this is that the dictionary is not the arbiter of the concept of god(s) but merely a shorthand for the word's more common usages. Philosophy and Theology have literally thousands of voluminous tomes dealing with just what is meant by this word, and it is quite a bit more nuanced than what Merriam Webster has put forth in this particular entry.

Of course, if you looked up the word dimensions in the dictionary, you would find no reference to the 10+ dimensions of string theory or the many worlds interpretation... yet, you would be hard pressed to find a physicist who was unaware of these concepts or thought that the word was ill applied there.

For starters, in any in depth argument over the meaning of a term or the concepts involved in its study I would say that an encyclopedia entry would be a more valid jumping off point. Wikipedia is not authoritative by any stretch of the imagination, but it is quite a bit more useful here than a simple collegiate dictionary entry.
Conceptions of God - Wikipedia

This is actually a decent essay/primer, and begins by very clearly stating that the kind of deity which you speak of is perfectly acceptable to refer to as god. Here are two varieties that work rather well IMO...

* the Ultimate, the summum bonum, the Absolute Infinite, the Transcendent, or Existence or Being itself;

* the ground of being, the monistic substrate, that which we cannot understand, etc.

Notice in this essay that many religions and philosophies the world over use this word in ways which don't trigger your innate repulsive reaction. If Pantheism doesn't quite fit your feelings, Pandeism might... in either case, I prefer a little entheism in that mix personally.

Apropos to this particular thread is the fact that the very term for this class of hallucinogens is entheogen. (within, divinity, creating) Thus, a group of rational minded scientist saw fit to proclaim that drugs like DMT are able to create a connection to, or feeling of deity/ divinity within us.

Something to consider.

Finally, though, if the word gives you the willies, you are perfectly within your rights to use words like Universe, Infinite, Oneness or whatever. If you read enough about the various branches of Theism, you will see that there is an umbrella there for basically every conception or non-conception. Nontheism is even a type of theism, and makes a strong case for the idea that atheism is actually nontheism with a fierce anti-religionist bent.

Be well my friend, nice to toss these ideas around with you.

HF

Great response as always, HF!

After reading your posts and having a very spiritual experience on these wonderful mushrooms AFOAF has, I'm beginning to think the term "atheist" may not best describe my position.

Allow me to elaborate.

When it comes to the "big questions", I have no particular way to lean because I don't feel I have enough evidence. It becomes difficult to say "Oh, I believe God created the Universe" or "The Universe is God" or "The Universe is a small part of God" because I don't feel like I have any evidence for ANY of these things.

The only thing I can say with any amount of certainty, is that I believe everything is one, and that any one thing is connected to everything else. Perhaps there is a specific term for that belief that doesn't evoke an intelligent creator or a religious overtone, but I have yet to find it. Would you happen to know of such a term?

- Electric

 

[Fronnis]

The only thing I can say with any amount of certainty, is that I believe everything is one, and that any one thing is connected to everything else. Perhaps there is a specific term for that belief that doesn't evoke an intelligent creator or a religious overtone, but I have yet to find it. Would you happen to know of such a term?

The Gaia hypothesis.

 

[○]

Connectivity not just on earth, but all over the universe. Why limit this underlying structure to just earth? :d

Biocentrism / primacy of consciousness

 

[The Electric Hippy]

The Gaia Hypothesis makes sense, but how would I word that? Am I a Gaiaist?

And Tattvasami, I don't hold to either Biocentrism nor Primacy of Consciousness. I'm definitely more of a Primacy of Existence kind of guy.

 

[Hyperspace Fool]

The Gaia Hypothesis makes sense, but how would I word that? Am I a Gaiaist?

And Tattvasami, I don't hold to either Biocentrism nor Primacy of Consciousness. I'm definitely more of a Primacy of Existence kind of guy.

People who adhere to Lovelock's basic premise tend to go by the term Gaia Hypothesist. While there is a lot to resonate with in that basic conception of the Earth as a single, possibly sentient organism... It is a bit too limited for me, personally.

I find that at every level of organization the systems behave as one thing. The Solar System could certainly be considered a single entity. It is not all that much different than an atom in that respect. But why stop there... the Galaxy certainly fits this bill, as does the Universe and all the Multiverses if you believe in those things.

The point for me is that it is ALL one. Infinite in both directions. This certainly qualifies as a god for me... far more than the extra-terrestrial beings that are called gods, demi-gods and angels in most religious scriptures. (they were created before the Earth, thus they are de facto, ETs)

Even beyond Gaia Theory, there are dozens of scientific theories and concepts that are obviously theistic IMHO. The Morphogenetic Field idea of Rupert Sheldrake comes to mind.

I would say that Gaia Theory is simply one of the better known examples of Holism. Maybe you could call yourself a Holist.

Heheehehe.

It matters very little what term you use. More interesting, perhaps is how your conceptions regarding this subject will continue to evolve... especially as you consume more entheogens.

 

[The Electric Hippy]

People who adhere to Lovelock's basic premise tend to go by the term Gaia Hypothesist. While there is a lot to resonate with in that basic conception of the Earth as a single, possibly sentient organism... It is a bit too limited for me, personally.

I find that at every level of organization the systems behave as one thing. The Solar System could certainly be considered a single entity. It is not all that much different than an atom in that respect. But why stop there... the Galaxy certainly fits this bill, as does the Universe and all the Multiverses if you believe in those things.

The point for me is that it is ALL one. Infinite in both directions. This certainly qualifies as a god for me... far more than the extra-terrestrial beings that are called gods, demi-gods and angels in most religious scriptures. (they were created before the Earth, thus they are de facto, ETs)

Would you say that this is what defines you as a pantheist?

I would say that Gaia Theory is simply one of the better known examples of Holism. Maybe you could call yourself a Holist.

I feel that term falls into the same limitations as Agnostic (dictionary definition specifically) in that it does not answer how one feels about the nature of God. While I appreciate the effort, I'm looking for something a bit more specific (namely, that I do not believe in the traditional concept of God but that I do believe we are all one)

It matters very little what term you use. More interesting, perhaps is how your conceptions regarding this subject will continue to evolve... especially as you consume more entheogens.

I certainly hope so There's nothing quite as pleasant as having my mind changed.

 

[JacksonMetaller]

To say atheism is not a belief strikes me as odd...it is a belief that something is false, untrue or non-existent.

Not really. I don't want to debate terminology too much but "atheist" comes from the greek roots a - without and theist - god (or relating to). Atheism is simply a lack of belief, not the same as an "anti-theist." You could never be exposed to the idea of god and still technically be an atheist. So it's not really a belief that god is false, but rather a lack of belief that he is real. So an Atheist could be anyone ranging from neutral (commonly called agnostic) to full fledged anti-theist. It's a pretty broad term.

As an Atheist myself I'd have to say my DMT experiences, and psychedelic experiences in general, are rather "religious." I still get all the "oneness," "you are god," whatever revelations that I think most people get on psychedelics. I actually don't know if I could still be categorized as an Atheist as my psychedelic experiences have blurred the line between God/no god. I've come to see the universe as a giant self-perpetuating organism. It's "all-knowledgable" and "all-powerful" because all knowledge and power that we know of are defined under it's terms. So how do I really separate that from the concept of god? Can I still call myself an Atheist because the universe doesn't have a white beard and look like a human, or because it doesn't act consciously but rather out of perfection? Or do I accept myself as a constituent part of this all encompassing being and call it God? At least that's how I've been looking at it recently.