The Confusion of Terence

[PureMan]

5-meo is SUPPOSEDLY the only true entheogen, in that it can give the user the experience of consciously being God. This can be argued, but there are people who are having this experience and have come back to talk about it.

Please cloud, this will be my last time asking this specific question:
How is this claim any different than mckenna's discussion of machine elves???

it's literally the same; subjective experiences being presented as fact, and having the potential to completely mislead people (which you claim to take so much issue with). Can you really not see the glaring similarity?

Yes, I see your point.. But if many people are having this experience, is it not reasonable to think that it might actually be true?

With McKenna, he was seeing something that no one else was.

Entirely false. What he calls machine elves, others call entities. Look around this forum and you will see hundreds, perhaps thousands of references to entities. Some even use Mckenna's term. So Ball 1, Mckenna 1. You seem to want to keep score...

I'm sorry, but if you continue to make baseless accusations and false statements, you are going to be called on them.

JBArk

Baseless accusations?.. My argument is that when people see or experience entities, it is only a projection of their egos.. And of course, an ego will FIGHT this til the end!.. So in the end, arguing this with anyone is just downright silly, and will only keep escalating. An ego will never let up. So I am simply just going to stop arguing my stance on this subject.

If a person wants to believe in elves and aliens, that isn't my problem.

I have never smoked 5-meo so I cannot speak for it experientially, but James Oroc has a good case going for 5-meo in his book Tryptamine Palace. If what he writes about in his book is true, then it is groundbreaking.. But you never really know until you experience it.

 

[jamie]

And Mckenna actauly stated at least several times that one of his ideas on the reality of these "machine elves" was that they were a part of the self, and that we are so alienated from the self that these parts present themsleves as the other. Why the hell that has not been brought up I am unsure.

 

[ragabr]

5-MeO did not lead to any "ultimate" truth for me. Ego dissolution yes, experiences similar to many reports of the Near Death experience yes. A completely unique tryptamine engagement, yes. A sense of energetic engagement, yes, but not any more so that I experienced with DMT and as SWIM continues to report in her relationship with changa. It sounds like changa much more actively aligns SWIM's subjective experience of energies within herself and the environment than I ever did with 5-MeO.

Really, the whole idea of ultimate truth seems so silly to me, as the entheogens have repeatedly upended any concept I would hold on to, given the opportunity. Consciousness can never go further than metaphorical engagement, and laying down one metaphor as the one everyone should embrace appears laughable when facing these teachers.

 

[jbark]

5-meo is SUPPOSEDLY the only true entheogen, in that it can give the user the experience of consciously being God. This can be argued, but there are people who are having this experience and have come back to talk about it.

Please cloud, this will be my last time asking this specific question:
How is this claim any different than mckenna's discussion of machine elves???

it's literally the same; subjective experiences being presented as fact, and having the potential to completely mislead people (which you claim to take so much issue with). Can you really not see the glaring similarity?

Yes, I see your point.. But if many people are having this experience, is it not reasonable to think that it might actually be true?

With McKenna, he was seeing something that no one else was.

Entirely false. What he calls machine elves, others call entities. Look around this forum and you will see hundreds, perhaps thousands of references to entities. Some even use Mckenna's term. So Ball 1, Mckenna 1. You seem to want to keep score...

I'm sorry, but if you continue to make baseless accusations and false statements, you are going to be called on them.

JBArk

Baseless accusations?.. My argument is that when people see or experience entities, it is only a projection of their egos.. And of course, an ego will FIGHT this til the end!.. So in the end, arguing this with anyone is just downright silly, and will only keep escalating. An ego will never let up. So I am simply just going to stop arguing my stance on this subject.

If a person wants to believe in elves and aliens, that isn't my problem.

I have never smoked 5-meo so I cannot speak for it experientially, but James Oroc has a good case going for 5-meo in his book Tryptamine Palace. If what he writes about in his book is true, then it is groundbreaking.. But you never really know until you experience it.

Baseless accusations, yes. quotes from a quick perusal of your posts:

He isn't touting fantasy like McKenna.

With McKenna, he was seeing something that no one else was.

It was damaging for Terence to release these stories

If people want to keep making up these fantastical stories about elves or aliens then that is their own problem. In reality, these types of trips keep people further away from living their lives in truth and authenticity.

Has ANYONE in this discussion even smoked 5-meo?

the fact that Terence created these myths blocked a lot of people from having the "true" experience that DMT has to offer.

He even says that once you smoke DMT you will realize that the world is made out of language. This is something that never happened to me either.

Some of the accusations are implicit (inferring that he is lying), while some are explicit. And all are baseless, because you cannot pretend to know his intentions, and there is nothing in his writing or that you have provided to suggest a base. Furthermore, I quoted Mckenna earlier regarding what he professed to know, which paraphrased is basically nothing. so attributing mishievous or dishonest intentions to him is baseless...

BTW who are you to presume that your DMT experiences are any more authentic than Mckenna's, or mine or anyone else's?

And just for the record, i enjoy his books, but am not a fan. I just despise bullys.

JBArk

 

[fourthripley]

As far as I'm aware, Ball is a convert to 5 meo based upon his contact with James Oroc; in fact in his book, Oroc quotes an email he recieved from Ball subsequent to his first 5 meo experience. On a casual reading of Ball's article it seems- to me- he's actually offended by Mckenna's casual dismissal of 5 meo in a youtube video and from that 'sleight' goes on to tear into somebody who is unable to defend themselves. To defame and question somebodys motives and sincerity on the, oh so scientific, basis of their voice tone seems to me more the tactics of the playground or toxic marriage than any sort of 'intellectual' debate. Seems Ball has some unresolved 'issues' around Terrence, seems 'angry with his Dad'.
Incidentally, the only 'entities' I have personally seen on DMT resembled red soccer/beach balls. Whatever that means.

 

[gibran2]

My argument is that when people see or experience entities, it is only a projection of their egos.. And of course, an ego will FIGHT this til the end!.. So in the end, arguing this with anyone is just downright silly, and will only keep escalating. An ego will never let up. So I am simply just going to stop arguing my stance on this subject.

If a person wants to believe in elves and aliens, that isn't my problem.

Why are aliens a projection of the ego? Why can’t it be possible that aliens/entities exist “somewhere” and that we are able to connect to that somewhere via DMT and other entheogens? And why aliens? Why not cows or bathtubs or zinnias? Why does the ego specifically generate alien beings? Of all the things that it could project, why aliens?

And why aren’t other people projections of the ego? Are you a projection of my ego? How can I know for sure either way? Why are some beings considered to be projections of the ego, yet others are not?

It’s easy to make a claim like “entities are only a projection of the ego”, but when you consider the philosophical ramifications, it’s not at all clear to me why this should be true. Can you explain it?

 

[universecannon]

Has ANYONE in this discussion even smoked 5-meo?

So are you suggesting that those who smoke 5-meo DO have a monopoly on the truth?

...

5-meo is supposed to show you the ultimate truth when smoked.

There is no entheogen, no spiritual practice, no variety of meditation or yoga or prayer, no religion or dogma, that can show a human being the ultimate truth. (And this assumes there IS an ultimate truth, which may not be the case.)

Human beings do not have the capacity to grasp the ultimate truth. Even if the ultimate truth were shoved in our collective faces, and we were told it was the ultimate truth, we wouldn’t be able to comprehend it. We simply don’t have the capacity.

5-meo is SUPPOSEDLY the only true entheogen, in that it can give the user the experience of consciously being God. This can be argued, but there are people who are having this experience and have come back to talk about it.

How can you really say that its the only true entheogen? what does that even mean?
And people report these types of experiences on a variety of psychedelics-and some while entirely sober. So the fact that people make such claims about 5meodmt as well isn't evidence that its "the one true entheogen that reveals the ultimate truth". If anything i think it points toward all of them being pieces of the same puzzle


"I think what 5-meo and Salvinorin A show experientially, is that we are all simultaneously everything that is."
This is inconsistent with your above quote, even though i agree with it =)

 

[jamie]

ahhhh no more no more!
This thread is looping looping looping!

...

There is no ultimate truth..

Nothing makes an sense..

There is only infinity..

infinity infinity infinity!

Infinity drenched drenched drenched in thick thick thick paradox..that is the only truth..

...

A truth that endlessly spirals back into itself over and over again forever casting off infinite glimmers, fractaline mirror reflections of itself from the void, growing, expanding back into itslef, back into the void that never existed and always was..men graspt at it, forgetting that only in the moment as is does the thing show its face, a face that drips down down down forever through the trembling cracks between they're fingers like water..

 

[PureMan]

I respect the opinions of everyone here. I never meant to push anyone's buttons.

I think this thread has definitely gone far enough.. It could keep going, but I really don't see the point. The entity debate could go on forever.

I respect both Terence and Martin equally.. Both have unique perspectives and characteristics that have influenced the way I perceive reality in different ways.

Thank you everyone for your feedback.

 

[cellux]

The most important thing is that for individuals who are truly ready to face reality, I am providing a crystal clear map for how to do it and what that reality is without any beliefs, dogmas, speculations, or anything else. While I do care universally for all beings, I'm invested the most in those who are truly ready, and for them, I will be all that I can be as a beacon for reality. For confused egos, I will always be an eternal frustration. For those who are ready, they know I'm speaking the simple truth. Just the way things go.

This is great. I like this man. He's my kind.

There is only one thing I feel he should have added to this:

"This is a way for those who are like me. If you cannot feel in yourself 100% that this is your way, then you shouldn't pursue it because it won't lead you anywhere. Try it out, and if it doesn't work, go and continue the search for your own way."

 

[cellux]

I understand what Martin Ball is saying, I really do. I guess I jsut see this place as infinite..and all connected..within an infinity of interconnectedness, there must be infinite subjectiveness as well that weaves it all back together again. Mckenna delved in that realm(subjectiveness, ego..), Martin delves in the one of objective reality(unity, non-ego). Again, ego is not inherantly a BAD thing. I dont see why one HAS to be flawed while the other is superior..One MAY exist(in a sense) on a higher level, which is Martins view I am talking about..but even then to say that is even dualistic..so there is a paradox there..there always is, always will be..Ive accepted that and moved beyond worrying about it.

I like the way you dissolve the hardness and the arrogance with the flow of your spirit...

 

[cellux]

Maybe it is a stretch to argue McKenna's voice.. I agree. Maybe that was his authentic tone.. I completely see your point.

I don't think it's a stretch. I think he was a human who did not have permanent direct connection, but had a very good way with words and could express the human experience of psychedelics in a very eloquent way. I myself learned a lot from Terence McKenna and I am very grateful for his existence.

My point is that even if his voice can be rightfully seen as some kind of proof that he was not really connected - just a human interpreter of the experience, with all the delusions this may bring about -, this doesn't diminish his value AT ALL. As I see it, God *purposefully* created Terence in that way. He used him - as any other prophet in this game of spiritual evolution - as a tool, and this tool did a marvelous job at the things he was destined to do.

There are prophets who speak from a 100% presence, who get their information from an intimate connection to God. But not everyone can listen to such a prophet. For most people, these are too far away, too much removed from their everyday reality. Therefore God also needs ordinary human beings, who err, who fail, who are more like us, with whom we can identify with. From this perspective, any "suspicious" marks of Terence - or any other human prophet - are there to let us *pull them down* to our own level, so that we may be able to identify with them (and therefore, the message).

As for the idea that these "lesser" prophets delude their followers: yes they may do, but that is also on purpose. Here is how it works: you become a "fanboy" of one of these prophets, then you listen to what he's saying with your heart. The information gets into you, and begins to change your life. Each one of us is an information processing machine. We eat the information, and then there is a mechanism inside us (or rather, our life is that mechanism) that puts the information to a test, we are "churning" on it and by this process we separate the wheat from the chaff: what works gets into its right place (becomes a building block of the spiritual body), what doesn't leaves the system without a trace. Actually, this process is the basis of our spiritual evolution. Therefore there is a NEED for false prophets. They are necessary to exercise our evolution machine.

 

[cellux]

There is no entheogen, no spiritual practice, no variety of meditation or yoga or prayer, no religion or dogma, that can show a human being the ultimate truth. (And this assumes there IS an ultimate truth, which may not be the case.)

Human beings do not have the capacity to grasp the ultimate truth. Even if the ultimate truth were shoved in our collective faces, and we were told it was the ultimate truth, we wouldn’t be able to comprehend it. We simply don’t have the capacity.

I beg to differ. There is a way.

At our present level (at the branches and leaves of the Tree), we may not have the capacity, yes. But there is a way to climb up (down) that Tree. The Unio Mystica is a real possibility. I know because I was there.

That you cannot speak about it afterwards? True. That anything you say about it is false? True. That there is no way to share it with your fellow human beings and therefore it's as if it didn't happen? Also true.

You know, it's like a rock which doesn't give anything except itself. You have it, but you cannot use it for anything. It has no practical purpose.

Therefore, if someone says that they found a Truth that is applicable in everyday life, I think it's not the final Truth. The final Truth brings peace, the cessation of everything.

 

[picatris]

There is no entheogen, no spiritual practice, no variety of meditation or yoga or prayer, no religion or dogma, that can show a human being the ultimate truth. (And this assumes there IS an ultimate truth, which may not be the case.)

Human beings do not have the capacity to grasp the ultimate truth. Even if the ultimate truth were shoved in our collective faces, and we were told it was the ultimate truth, we wouldn’t be able to comprehend it. We simply don’t have the capacity.

I beg to differ. There is a way.

At our present level (at the branches and leaves of the Tree), we may not have the capacity, yes. But there is a way to climb up (down) that Tree. The Unio Mystica is a real possibility.

Precisely! More than a possibility, it's THE quest for all mankind (or the ones who feel like doing it, anyway). It has been accomplished by many people through the centuries, not always with use of entheogens - actually, most of the times without the use of any substances.

That you cannot speak about it afterwards? True. That anything you say about it is false? True. That there is no way to share it with your fellow human beings and therefore it's as if it didn't happen? Also true.

There is a simple explanation. It's not that everything we can say is false. The issue here is that Language fails to explain or convey meaning for such experiences. Gnosis cannot be expressed in words. All the sages through the ages have said the same. [Actually there is a way, but it is not for everyone. Through poetry, at least a glimpse of the ineffable can be shown. Very few poets have done it, and not everyone is sensitive to their words]

You know, it's like a rock which doesn't give anything except itself. You have it, but you cannot use it for anything. It has no practical purpose.

Therefore, if someone says that they found a Truth that is applicable in everyday life, I think it's not the final Truth. The final Truth brings peace, the cessation of everything.

This I beg to disagree. The Final Truth should demolish all our previous beliefs, thus it is the final test that we have been there; that is, our everyday life must be changed according to our perception of that Ultimate Truth. If we remain the same assholes, we might have seen something but the message has rebounded upon hitting the armor of our ignorance and shortsightedness.

 

[cellux]

This I beg to disagree. The Final Truth should demolish all our previous beliefs, thus it is the final test that we have been there; that is, our everyday life must be changed according to our perception of that Ultimate Truth. If we remain the same assholes, we might have seen something but the message has rebounded upon hitting the armor of our ignorance and shortsightedness.

Dunno. The Buddhist masters tell us that samsara and nirvana are the same thing. Chögyam Trungpa was living in this eternal Truth, while being a drunkard and having sexual relationships with his disciples. There is this ground which I cannot defend in any way (not that it needs any defense from my part). Those who have seen it (and reached the end of the road) say they become just like those who are at the beginning of the road. There is no difference. Subjective reality is absolute reality and there is no absolute reality outside of subjective reality. The world is the mandala, with everything it contains.

Therefore it makes no sense - from the final perspective, and ONLY from the final perspective - to change anything. That's what I meant by 'peace and the cessation of everything'.

 

[picatris]

Dunno. The Buddhist masters tell us that samsara and nirvana are the same thing.

which Buddhist masters? Never ever saw, read or heard such a thing! in the Mahayana, the goal is to get release from Samsara by reaching Nirvana!

Chögyam Trungpa was living in this eternal Truth, while being a drunkard and having sexual relationships with his disciples.

Which is quite good for him. Having transcended morality that is a perfectly good way to live his life. Reaching Nirvana does not equate to "being holy" in the Christian sense. Crowley also reached Nirvana and was taking Morphine and Heroin through his life, and was a sexually active person until the end of his days (occasionally also having sex with his disciples...)

There is this ground which I cannot defend in any way (not that it needs any defense from my part). Those who have seen it (and reached the end of the road) say they become just like those who are at the beginning of the road.

Again, who said that? Never heard anything like it! After Nirvana there is a new beginning, of course, but that's just because one has to re-experience many things again, with a fresh pair of eyes. We do not have to travel the same path again!

 

[gibran2]

@ cellux & picatris – The fact that you are both able to argue about what exactly “The Ultimate Truth” is proves my point vividly. If human beings could comprehend this, then there would be no argument or debate. And this of course assumes that “The Ultimate Truth” exists at all.

Lately, I tend to think that reality, the universe, “being”, the whole of existence – whatever you want to call it, is like an onion with infinite layers. You can peel away the layers for all of eternity and never approach the center. There is no Ultimate Truth, there are only deeper truths.

(That’s also why I think the claims of Martin Ball are so arrogant and juvenile. Does he honestly believe that a human being can understand any of this? If he put his ego aside, he might see things more clearly.)

 

[cellux]

Dunno. The Buddhist masters tell us that samsara and nirvana are the same thing.

which Buddhist masters? Never ever saw, read or heard such a thing! in the Mahayana, the goal is to get release from Samsara by reaching Nirvana!

Here:

Three marks of existence - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Interpretations of the three marks by various schools

Some Buddhist traditions assert that Anatta (emptiness) pervades everything, and is not limited to personality, or soul. These traditions assert that Nirvana also has the quality of Anatta, but that Nirvana (by definition) is the cessation of Dukkha (suffering) and Anicca (impermanence).

In his Mulamadhyamakakarika (XXV:19), Nagarjuna says:

There is not the slightest difference
Between Samsara and Nirvana

This verse points us to an interesting stress between dukkha and nirvana, through an argument based in anatta. This specific stress can be seen to be the key to (and possibly source for the development of) the deity yogas of vajrayana.

The sutra path enjoins us to identify the entire world (internally and externally) as samsara – a continual churning of suffering that nobody wants to be part of. Our practice is that of leaving the shores of samsara.

On the other hand, we are told that unconditioned, enlightened activity is not actually different from samsara.

Whereas the deity yoga of vajrayana enjoins us to identify the entire world as nirvana – a continual play of enlightening activity that everyone wishes to be a part of. Our practice here is that of arriving at the shores of nirvana.

At this level, the distinction between Sutra and Vajrayana remain that of view (departing vs. arriving), but basically the practitioner remains involved in undergoing a transformative development to his or her Weltanschauung, and in this context, these practices remain rooted in psychological change, grounded in the development of Samatha, or training in concentration.

Although I don't like this explanation too much (too dry and scholarly for my taste). Chögyam Trungpa explained this much much better.

Also here:

http://www.fodian.net/world/zzgse.html

(Self Liberation through Seeing with Naked Awareness By Padmasambhava)

Since you do not see the natural condition of the real disposition of things,
you do not know that appearances come from mind, and so you are thrust once again into Samsara.
By not seeing that your own mind is actually the Buddha, Nirvana becomes obscured.
With respect to Samsara and Nirvana, (the difference is simply due) to ignorance or to awareness respectively.
But at this single instant (of pure awareness), there is in fact no actual difference between them (in terms of their essence).

This view of samsara and nirvana as one is mostly prevalent in the Vajrayana schools of Buddhism.

As for my second statement (those who reached the end become just like those who are at the beginning), I couldn't find any sources, but if nirvana means the realization that everything has Buddha nature (the world is the mahamudra), then it's somewhat logical.

 

[cellux]

Lately, I tend to think that reality, the universe, “being”, the whole of existence – whatever you want to call it, is like an onion with infinite layers. You can peel away the layers for all of eternity and never approach the center. There is no Ultimate Truth, there are only deeper truths.

An onion with infinite layers? Infinite towards the inside or towards the outside?

When I had this experience (where I got to the Center), I followed a thread of understandings. Each understanding was built upon the previous one and these were depending on each other (I could only understand the next truth if I could understand the previous one). To symbolize this process, a spiral would be the best choice.

With these steps of understanding, the area of the world (the complexity of the mandala) decreased. It was like going down the tree towards the root. Each time the branches join with each other, the world becomes simpler, but it is still complete, it's just that what in the previous step was contained in N symbols/elements, was "reduced" to half (?) of them - at the same time showing me how level N got "created" from level N-1. The last steps of this process are 2, 1 and 0.

When I got to the 2, then only the Creator and the Creature remained and we together constituted the mandala (all that is was "packaged" back to this basic duality). When this duality was united (1), then I was gone, therefore I can't remember this (for me it was like an instant, when I disappeared in It and then reappeared in my new life). The existence of the 0 is later speculation on my part.

This is why I dare to think of the existence of absolute truth.

 

[jbark]

Cellux wrote:

An onion with infinite layers? Infinite towards the inside or towards the outside? Smile

Depends which way you're travelling.

And how hungry you are!!:shock: Seriously though, I love this analogy.

Gibran2

(That’s also why I think the claims of Martin Ball are so arrogant and juvenile. Does he honestly believe that a human being can understand any of this? If he put his ego aside, he might see things more clearly.)

That's what I have been getting at and have either been failing to convey, or been misunderstood or both.

JBArk