The end of the west?

[jbark]

nope. But that was never my point. I dont find any real relevance in comparisons when it comes to this issue because its like saying one oppression is better than the other. What I want doesnt exist in the dead world anywhere. Society is sick and its a collective, global phenomenon..and I would much rather live off in the world of my creation than in the one we collectivly seem to agree exists.

Then I fear, friend, that you have condemned yourself to a life of strife and discontentment... Not saying that it is imperative to fit in and dance the dance of the status quo, by any means, but if one lives in a collective society and eschews all that any collective society anywhere has to offer, then I don't see how one could ever achieve contentment - or peace, for that matter. Frankly, it seems a little self limiting and antithetical to the idea of possibility and change.

I say this because for me also, it is a constant struggle. Reconciling yourself against the ills and failings of any system is no easy task, but concentrating on the good within it is one giant leap, IMHO. If you see no good at all, then perhaps you're not looking hard enough...?

cheers,
JBArk

 

[jbark]

It's strange - we look back at the Industrial Revolution, WWII, the Age of Reason, and see massive, revolutionary changes of thinking and perspective on a societal scale. And everything seems to change, enormously. And yet, in my life time, the greatest revolution has happened - the connecting up of humanity.

I don't think things are getting worse - I reckon the Black Plague was a pretty rough patch - I think we're more aware of things. Global news, 24/7, and of course the web upon which we have built this community, connected across timezones and faultlines, connected by a shared experience.

The earthquakes and strikes and riots and crashes and coups and explosions - these are always happening, always have. The change is in the fact that we are becoming connected, like neurons in a global brain, and that will continue to be the single most important change of our age, what we will be remembered for.

Exactly. thanks 88 for a more concise articulation of my point!! well said.

 

[polytrip]

There always have been disasters. That's true. But that doesn't make my point invalid. There always have been society's collapsing as well.

America is having a real hard time ahead of it anyway, and that will probably have it's effects on europe as well.

For the past three years or so, the government has been injecting hundreds of billions of dollars into the economy, with as only result that the economy has not been imploding. It is clear that this situation can't go on forever and that at some moment in time, the infamous so called american consumer should take-over this role of big spender, if you'd want the situation to be like it was before the crisis, like the majority of the americans do.
That is not likely to happen in the near future, because the consumer's have debt's to pay and they are pessimistic about the economy.

It is likely therefore, that once the government will stop injecting these massive amounts of money into the economy, and at some point it will stop doing that, the economy will start shrinking again: The only reason the economy isn't shrinking now, is because of these massive financial injections.

So then we will see a shrinking economy and that is likely to coïncide with the realisation among financial institutions worldwide and among american consumers as well, that america won't ever be able to pay back it's debts.

The current position of the american government on this is, like i said before, that this scenario will never happen, because the american economy is too big to fail.
If you weren't convinced by the figures alone, that america is going to face another recession (much worse than the first one because the total debts have only gotten worse since )then this reckless attitude should definately convince you.

And remember, social tensions where already there when everything was relatively going well. Oh and btw, did i mention that the colorado is running out of water?

 

[picatris]

The earthquakes and strikes and riots and crashes and coups and explosions - these are always happening, always have. The change is in the fact that we are becoming connected, like neurons in a global brain, and that will continue to be the single most important change of our age, what we will be remembered for.

This is the basis for the illusion many people are living. Of course such things have happened. Of course such things will continue to happen. And you are again right, as we are more connected and more aware of what is happening. But that is besides the point. The issue here is much more structural. We have, whether or not one wants to admit it, reached the level of diminishing returns. That is, the global growth rate cannot be sustained and WILL decrease or even STALL. But even this might not be a problem, so we may think. We, in the so called "civilized world" might very well live without growth, one may imagine. But current economic theory disproves that fact! Most money circulates and is created on the expectancy that the Dow and the NASDAQ will rise. When it is perceived that they will not, confidence in the future will fall, MANY companies will loose their value (which was, as we all know, fictitious) and global and very big problems will follow. Massive unemployment and foreclosures, with the consequent arouse of right wing governments (and dictatorships?) will be parts of the process. Can you imagine 20-30% unemployment and a world structured around it (Detroit, anyone?)

What is happening in Europe right now is just the beginning, and there is no solution for it.

What may sustain economic growth for a few more years are the BRIC countries (Brazil, Russia, India and China) which still have some margin of growth. But as their resources become exploited there will be no solutions to avoid the Global Crisis.


Again, I do believe this will be for the greater good, and Man will find a position of balance in the world he created. But suffering during this process will be unavoidable.

 

[Ice House]

Ice House- you say the Islamic Bomb is now a reality-care to elaborate on this?

Pakistan has had a nuclear weapon for some time now. Pakistan has a huge problem now with al qeda and islamic fundamentalism, islamic radicals that would love to overthrow the current government. Iran is in possession of nuclear material and has developed the capability to strike Isreal and American personel stationed in that region. Iran has for decades been a a sponsor and financier of terrorist organizations around the world. Iran has proclamed that it is dedicated to the destruction of Isreal and America. Iran is ruled by an absolute WAKO and a bunch of facist islamic ayatollas.

IMO its just a matter of time. Its not if, its when. I am totally against what the Isrealis are doing to the Palestinians. I am not a big fan of Isreal, at all. The reality of the situation is that a nuclear attack on Isreal will bring the USA into a nuclear war. Isreal is also a nuclear state with its finger on the button.

I feel that all the elements are in place for a disaster to happen.

 

[corpus callosum]

Yes IH, you are right about Pakistan being a nuclear power but the situation is a little more nuanced than it appears. Pakistan has a peculiar set-up; ostensibly its a democratic nation but the real power resides with the military and the intelligence service, the ISI.Both the military and the ISI are inextricably linked with the militants called The Pakistani Taliban and to a lesser degree with Al Qaida because, from their perspective, the real enemy of Pakistan is India and it needs to keep the radicals on-side to cause periodic mayhem in Kashmir.The likelihood of the militants taking over the country and its nuclear arsenal is minimal as both parties need each other and theyve established an effective working relationship.

Iran ,as you say, does seek a nuclear arsenal but the Persians are a savvy and duplicitous bunch who know their limitations.Israel may be in their sights but not the US.In fact, the Iranians have cooperated with the US early on in the Afghan war pointing out to the US where the militants are based whilst at the same time providing refuge to characters such as Abu Musab Al Zarqawi who went on to cause mayhem in Iraq. Iran is a problematic place due to it being of the Shiite persuasion and hence detested by the Sunni Middle East ie Saudi, Jordan, Yemen, parts of Iraq and the Gulf states-if Iran becomes a nuclear armed state then inevitably these Sunni nations will seek nuclear weapons too and this could lead to weaponry going AWOL and perhaps into the hands of the militants.

The issue which drives the islamic worlds hatred of the US stems from its unevenhanded approach when it comes to dealing with Israel and Palestine and until this issue is resolved the situation globally will only deteriorate.

Wow- heavy stuff for the nexus:shock:

 

[pau]

20 years ago I would not have been thinkikng this way, but after the last few years of factionalism in this country increasing at the speed of light, as well as increasing polarization between different countries and blocks of countries, it has become crystal clear to me that the world itself - not just the east or the west - needs a new model of order...one of mutual respect, support and cooperation. It is not a matter of east or west, or capitalism vs something else.... It's more as if the entire planet is operating on circa 500AD warlord model of community: powerful ruling cliques (backed by either guns, or a privileged class of lawyers, or both) vs the subjects they manipulate and feed off.

Sure some countries are better, more comfortable places to live than others, but the ruling classes whereever located are - just like any business - out to increase power and screw the public and get away with as much lying and misinformation, using every trick they can get away with, as they can to keep their competition down. Here in California, the "confidence level" in the clown-government we are stuck with is down to something like 10% or less now ... the lowest number ever recorded. The US Congress is not much better off. At least the public still has the resources to figure out what's going on, but the government here, as in many countries around the world, would love to make accountability information impossible to get.

To me now, getting out of this mess is not about changing the economic model, it's a question of how much one cares about other people, one's level of awareness of what you believe to be your responsibilites to other people. These are personal choices, and if a government has anything to do with helping citizens raise their awareness of that, then it will have to come through inspirational leadership that has is not corrupted by warlord politics.

 

[polytrip]

Yes IH, you are right about Pakistan being a nuclear power but the situation is a little more nuanced than it appears. Pakistan has a peculiar set-up; ostensibly its a democratic nation but the real power resides with the military and the intelligence service, the ISI.Both the military and the ISI are inextricably linked with the militants called The Pakistani Taliban and to a lesser degree with Al Qaida because, from their perspective, the real enemy of Pakistan is India and it needs to keep the radicals on-side to cause periodic mayhem in Kashmir.The likelihood of the militants taking over the country and its nuclear arsenal is minimal as both parties need each other and theyve established an effective working relationship.

Iran ,as you say, does seek a nuclear arsenal but the Persians are a savvy and duplicitous bunch who know their limitations.Israel may be in their sights but not the US.In fact, the Iranians have cooperated with the US early on in the Afghan war pointing out to the US where the militants are based whilst at the same time providing refuge to characters such as Abu Musab Al Zarqawi who went on to cause mayhem in Iraq. Iran is a problematic place due to it being of the Shiite persuasion and hence detested by the Sunni Middle East ie Saudi, Jordan, Yemen, parts of Iraq and the Gulf states-if Iran becomes a nuclear armed state then inevitably these Sunni nations will seek nuclear weapons too and this could lead to weaponry going AWOL and perhaps into the hands of the militants.

The issue which drives the islamic worlds hatred of the US stems from its unevenhanded approach when it comes to dealing with Israel and Palestine and until this issue is resolved the situation globally will only deteriorate.

Wow- heavy stuff for the nexus:shock:

I don't agree with this optimism.
First of all we don't know the exact nature of the relation between the taliban and the pakistand government agencies. I don't think you can safely count on it that the taliban won't push their program of destabilisation too far. I rather think they'll push it as far as they can. Although the nations nuclear arsenal isn't likely to fall into the hands of the taliban, we don't know how india would respond to a deeply destabilased pakistan for instance. Just the presence of a nuclear weapon somewhere has a huge political impact.

On iran i'm being much more pesimistic. Yes, they're probably not planning to wipe out israel for real. BUT, when they have a nuclear weapon, they will have a great political power. They will get away with much, much more than they currently can. They will much more openly support all kinds of terrorist-organisations and will be able to go much further indestabilising the entire region, because israel, iraq, saudi arabia and america will all be very reluctant in using any kind of military, political or economic force against iran. Just the fact that they'll OWN a weapon is likely to cause great instability: they WILL use their nuclear power to destabilise almost every neighbouring state. They may block the street of hormuz with mines or whatever stuff they got, and get away with it, because responding to such an act may lead to nuclear warfare, wich nobody wants. That's the sort of power they're gonna get, and that may strengthen the regime within the country itself, wich is probably why they want it so badly in the first place. Once they get their hands on this magical piece of nuclear technology, they've become almost invincible to any realistic threat and that will encourage them to cause serious instability.

 

[DMTripper]

I'm very positive about what's going on in the world today.
We live in a world where the greedy minority rules in the power of the stock market and the monetary system, but it's about crash.
I see hard times ahead, but after all a birth of a new civilization is not a small thing! Survival of the fittest is a mode for animals. I believe Homo sapiens is transforming
into something more. When we master our instincts and animalistic nature we will ascend to a new level. People are waking up. We're innit together.
Those who have not woken up and still choose to be just the animal will become a minority.

 

[universecannon]

I have my moments in the hole as anyone does, but usually I'm very optimistic about all of it. I think what needs to be avoided at all costs right now is pessimism. Sure society is in the shit on many levels.. but history and culture itself is not some unnatural process or abnormal mutation. I think its a completely natural occurrence in the universe for beings such as ourselves to go through something like this at this point in our evolution.

We can sulk all we want about how fucked up society is, and brainwashed its conformers are-but we need to realize that its inhabitants are still people just like us..remember, the mind can change as quickly as a tv set..most just haven't had the opportunities or know how to come to an understanding of how backwards our culture is and do anything about it- so they just keep playing along. I think becoming as independent as possible from the system mentally and physically is important and useful..but at the same time, this is where the most work needs to be done..we need to pump as much love into it as we can in an effort to wake as many people as possible. Its not going to change by itself if we all become trippy hermits who don't interact with people in any way-and be the change we want to see in the world, as ghandi said.

I really like terence's analogy to the birth process. To an outside observer naive to how it works- it appears to be a death; lots of screaming, sweat, blood and pain. But alas, it is a birth. We need to pump as much love as possible into everything we can and wake this planet up.. and cut this umbilical before it kills us and the biosphere. Peace brudaz