The True God

[Guyomech]

Joe- I like your "gradient" model, that makes a lot of sense.

In my highest and brightest godhead experience, I felt like I had a direct view into the absolute core of reality; all of my self had aligned in a way that allowed a ray of the brightest light to shine upon me.

But I did not in any way grasp the absolute! I tasted it, for an electrifying, heart-stopping few seconds, before coming back into the room. And you know what happens when you come back from an experience like that? You return to your old self, maybe slightly changed but still a primate with feet that stink. And you interpret the experience according to who you are and what you know, including anything you have read, particularly scripture.

My godhead experiences have never been flavored like any of the manmade religions. They were flavored like me, because I was the one having the experience, filtering it into my mind. I am only capable, after all, of perceiving what I am wired to perceive.

And the thing that I got from these experiences, more than anything, is that we are truly and interconnectedly part of the entire whole; that the one true god is the totality of the whole thing, this thing that is you, that is me, that is all of us;

That God is Self in its wholeness.

 

[somaeye]

So, in your opinion, those who have achieved a higher state of consciousness without using psychedelics are "dead people"? Sufis and tibetan monks are "dead people"?

Undoubtedly, the striking parallels between "The legend about Chakdor" and the Hindu legend of the origin of soma show that the Buddhist amrita and the Hindu soma were at one time understood to be identical. Moreover, the principal property of amrita is, to this day, perceived by Buddhists as being a species of inebriation, however symbolically this inebriation may be interpreted. Why else would beer (Tibetan chhang, "barley beer" ) be used by yogins as a symbolic substitute for amrita [Ardussi]? Conversely, why else would the term bDud.rTsi be used as a poetic synonym for beer?

--(The God Who Drank Urine)

 

[joedirt]

I have personally achieved higher states of consciousness from meditation alone.

Drugs, psychedelics especially, are really nothing like meditation and it's foolish to assume they are.

Drugs give the illusion of higher consciousness. A real higher consciousness arises without all the visual and auditory BS. Lucid dreaming, falling asleep consciously, and yes meditation alone can induce vastly different states of consciousness.

Don't get me wrong I love psychedelics and a lot can be learned from these states and applied back to life and meditation, but they are not now, never have they been, nor will they ever be a substitute for meditation.

Enlightened states require changing your nature at a fundamental level and while LSD or DMT may allow you to experience an afterglow like state were you seem to operate in a more universal empathetic manner it still ends. 8 hours later and you are still you.

You have to do the real work of change on your own. No drug can change you for the better long term.

Because of this I can state flat out that while drugs may have played a part in Buddhism and Hinduism they were clearly only tools. Why else would all the states of mind be mapped out so precisely? Why else would these tradition continue to produce enlightened masters? Hint: It has nothing to do with exogenous drugs.

Anyone looking for a chemical shortcut to transcendence is fooling themselves as plenty of others have walked this path and failed. Now using them as an adjunct tool to a real spiritual practice, perhaps, PERHAPS this has some real merit.

 

[joedirt]

And the thing that I got from these experiences, more than anything, is that we are truly and interconnectedly part of the entire whole; that the one true god is the totality of the whole thing, this thing that is you, that is me, that is all of us;

That God is Self in its wholeness.

^This is essentially what I have gathered as well.

The issue I struggle with now is: I've gotten the message is it time to hang up the phone?

To be sure I like psychedelics, but have they already given me the everything that can be given? I suspect so, but either way I like to go back and recharging every so often.

The clear light is something I wish all humans could experience at least once in their lifetime. The experience of being one with everything, without judgement, is simply the peak experience we can have as humans. I count myself among the lucky few to have had a real godhead mystical experience...even if it was drug induced.

peace

 

[URBY]

I have personally achieved higher states of consciousness from meditation alone.

Drugs, psychedelics especially, are really nothing like meditation and it's foolish to assume they are.

Drugs give the illusion of higher consciousness. A real higher consciousness arises without all the visual and auditory BS. Lucid dreaming, falling asleep consciously, and yes meditation alone can induce vastly different states of consciousness.

Don't get me wrong I love psychedelics and a lot can be learned from these states and applied back to life and meditation, but they are not now, never have they been, nor will they ever be a substitute for meditation.

Enlightened states require changing your nature at a fundamental level and while LSD or DMT may allow you to experience an afterglow like state were you seem to operate in a more universal empathetic manner it still ends. 8 hours later and you are still you.

You have to do the real work of change on your own. No drug can change you for the better long term.

Because of this I can state flat out that while drugs may have played a part in Buddhism and Hinduism there were clearly only tools. Why else would all the states of mind be mapped out so precisely? Why else would these tradition continue to produce enlightened masters? Hint: It has nothing to do with exogenous drugs.

Anyone looking for a chemical shortcut to transcendence is fooling themselves as plenty of others have walked this path and failed. Now using them as an adjunct tool to a real spiritual practice, perhaps, PERHAPS this has some real merit.

AGREED

 

[○]

And the thing that I got from these experiences, more than anything, is that we are truly and interconnectedly part of the entire whole; that the one true god is the totality of the whole thing, this thing that is you, that is me, that is all of us;

That God is Self in its wholeness.

^This is essentially what I have gathered as well.

The issue I struggle with now is: I've gotten the message is it time to hang up the phone?

To be sure I like psychedelics, but have they already given me the everything that can be given? I suspect so, but either way I like to go back and recharging every so often.

The clear light is something I wish all humans could experience at least once in their lifetime. The experience of being one with everything, without judgement, is simply the peak experience we can have as humans. I count myself among the lucky few to have had a real godhead mystical experience...even if it was drug induced.

peace

I like where this thread has headed very strongly. I find where I'm at now..that Im posed with the incessant question "Is it time to hang up the phone" and work with what i've been given?

I go back n' forth in my head daily. I haven't smoked a solid dose of changa in several months due to the one experience that halted me in my tracks Welcome to the DMT-Nexus which you had posted in joedirt. That experience solidified this whole 'God' concept to me.

Maybe I should just hang it all up and live my life to the fullest and with as much compassion as possible. That seems to be what I'm left with in most of my strong experiences. All of life rests on this infinite capacity for novelty and compassion...pure love and the sheer joy to create an infinite multitude of experience seeking lifeforms such as ourselves.

It's really a beautiful thing.

 

[Eliyahu]

I have personally achieved higher states of consciousness from meditation alone.

Drugs, psychedelics especially, are really nothing like meditation and it's foolish to assume they are.

Drugs give the illusion of higher consciousness. A real higher consciousness arises without all the visual and auditory BS. Lucid dreaming, falling asleep consciously, and yes meditation alone can induce vastly different states of consciousness.

Don't get me wrong I love psychedelics and a lot can be learned from these states and applied back to life and meditation, but they are not now, never have they been, nor will they ever be a substitute for meditation.

Enlightened states require changing your nature at a fundamental level and while LSD or DMT may allow you to experience an afterglow like state were you seem to operate in a more universal empathetic manner it still ends. 8 hours later and you are still you.

You have to do the real work of change on your own. No drug can change you for the better long term.

Because of this I can state flat out that while drugs may have played a part in Buddhism and Hinduism they were clearly only tools. Why else would all the states of mind be mapped out so precisely? Why else would these tradition continue to produce enlightened masters? Hint: It has nothing to do with exogenous drugs.

Anyone looking for a chemical shortcut to transcendence is fooling themselves as plenty of others have walked this path and failed. Now using them as an adjunct tool to a real spiritual practice, perhaps, PERHAPS this has some real merit.

Well I personall believe that psychedelics have to be used in conjuction with some type of rigorous spiritual discipline in order to be of any use.

The Native americans refer to taking Peyote as the hard road, this is not just a reference to the purge. Psychedeics as a spiritual path are by no means a short cut.

Psychedelics do not simply hand you spiritual enlightenment by way of just taking them.
They require lots of hard work, dedication, discipline etc.

As for the enlightened masters you speak of.... while they may be enlightened to some degree many of them are simply indulging like crazy in the idea of being a master.


I actually had the fortune of meeting a Tibetan Lama, his name is Garchen. He's not the indulgent kind. He spoke at a seminar that was bieng held where I once worked.

I asked one of his assistance if I could meet him and she said, "actually he's in the bathroom right now" we were standing by the bathrom at the time.

Just then, garchen came out of the bathroom and looked right at me. He gave me a huge smile and emraced me. He the put his forehead on mine and looked directly in my eyes, I felt a wind pass through me and it's hard to describe but it made quite and energy boost.

Anyway, after that we shook hands and he looked my with a mischevious smile at me as if to say "I know what your up to...you be careful now.." (he doesn't speak english)

He walked off and his assistant walked right up to me and said, "oh my god, he gave you the buddha head-butt he very rarely does that...he must like you for some reason. I sensed she was a bit mad and jelous about it.

Anyway I watched him speak and it was amazing and I would say that he is to a high degree enlightened although there is some heavy Dogma there as with all religions.

However If he smoked some DMT.....I bet he would find himself even MORE enlightened with less dogmatic burdons to way him down...

As far as psychedelic use goes I tuly see no harm in using it regularly as long as you have some discipline to temper it out with....

Personally I want to see everything I can in this life.

Meditating your whole life without psychedelics is sort of like driving around the world in a mercedes. It's a smooth ride and your well protected for the whole journey, but your journey is limited.

Medatating with psychedelics for a lifetime is like taking a rocket ship into outer space....the ride is rougher and stuff moves faster but your view is way less limited, and it's easier to understand the big picture.

 

[joedirt]

I would like add that the world enlightenment carries so much baggage these days.

I don't think there are people walking on water and raising the dead, but I do believe there are a quite a few people like the one you described Eliyahu.

 

[Eliyahu]

I would like add that the world enlightenment carries so much baggage these days.

I don't think there are people walking on water and raising the dead, but I do believe there are a quite a few people like the one you described Eliyahu.

Well that is sort of my point....If these buddhists didn't hold psychedelics as taboo and they used them then they might very well be walking on water etc...

IMO Christ used psychedelics on a regular basis as did other biblical archtypes. This is where I believe they got the energy to perform extraordinary deeds.

 

[joedirt]

I would like add that the world enlightenment carries so much baggage these days.

I don't think there are people walking on water and raising the dead, but I do believe there are a quite a few people like the one you described Eliyahu.

Well that is sort of my point....If these buddhists didn't hold psychedelics as taboo and they used them then they might very well be walking on water etc...

IMO Christ used psychedelics on a regular basis as did other biblical archtypes. This is where I believe they got the energy to perform extraordinary deeds.

No I don't agree. Show me a single hippy that can walk on water?

Psychedelics are no enlightenment. They just aren't no matter how bad we want them to be. They are fascinating, but if you go back and really read the words of say Buddha or Krishna and then compare those words with the psychedelic state you don't really find much in common.

 

[Eliyahu]

I would like add that the world enlightenment carries so much baggage these days.

I don't think there are people walking on water and raising the dead, but I do believe there are a quite a few people like the one you described Eliyahu.

Well that is sort of my point....If these buddhists didn't hold psychedelics as taboo and they used them then they might very well be walking on water etc...

IMO Christ used psychedelics on a regular basis as did other biblical archtypes. This is where I believe they got the energy to perform extraordinary deeds.

No I don't agree. Show me a single hippy that can walk on water?

Psychedelics are no enlightenment. They just aren't no matter how bad we want them to be. They are fascinating, but if you go back and really read the words of say Buddha or Krishna and then compare those words with the psychedelic state you don't really find much in common.

I never said Hippies were disciplined..


Also YOU don't find much in common....I find everything in common

 

[joedirt]

Give me a single reason, based on reason to assume what you say is possible?

Psychedelics are not going to allow you to walk on water.

 

[joedirt]

Also YOU don't find much in common....I find everything in common

Care to back that up? Links?

I'll do the same.

 

[Eliyahu]

Give me a single reason, based on reason to assume what you say is possible?

Psychedelics are not going to allow you to walk on water.

You want me to reason out how you can walk on water? seriously?

How is it more reasonable to assume that this could be accomplished while sober?

Also you want me to link you to how my psychedelic experience is everything buddhism describes?

OK

www.eliyahu's-trip-is-just-like-the-words-of-buddha-and-krishna.com

 

[joedirt]

Give me a single reason, based on reason to assume what you say is possible?

Psychedelics are not going to allow you to walk on water.

You want me to reason out how you can walk on water? seriously?

How is it more reasonable to assume that this could be accomplishe while sober?

So here is the problem. You assume that because it was written that it was true.
I do not.
I assume, like most rational people that these stories are mythology.

 

[Eliyahu]

Give me a single reason, based on reason to assume what you say is possible?

Psychedelics are not going to allow you to walk on water.

You want me to reason out how you can walk on water? seriously?

How is it more reasonable to assume that this could be accomplishe while sober?

So here is the problem. You assume that because it was written that it was true.
I do not.
I assume, like most rational people that these stories are mythology.

NO I said that because I saw it and it's written in 10 different languages that it MAY be truth

 

[joedirt]

The jhanas as described in the Nikayas from the Pali Cannon.

I entered and dwelled in the first jhana which is accompanied by thought and examination, with rapture and happiness born of seclusion. But such pleasant feelings that arose in me did not invade my mind and remain.

With subsiding of thought and examination, I entered and dwelled in the second jhana, which has internal confidence and unification of mind, is without thought and examination, and has rapture and happiness born of concentration. But such pleasant feeling that arose in me did not invade my mind and remain.

With the fading away as well of rapture, I dwelled equanimous, and mindful and clearly comprehending, I experienced happiness with the body; I entered and dwelled in the third jhana of which the noble ones declare: 'He is equanimous, mindful, one who dwells happily.'. But such pleasant feelings that arose in me did not invade my mind and remain.

With the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous passing away of joy and displeasure, I entered and dwelled in the fourth jhana, which is neither painful nor pleasant and includes the purification of mindfullness by equanimity. But such a pleasant feeling that arose in me did not invade my mind and remain.

From the 4th jhana, there are 8, the Buddha then directed his attention towards past lives, etc and eventually obtained enlightenment.

The other 4 jhanas are described elsewhere in the text...I'll dig them up if we still have some debate about this issue.


Nothing in there even remotely sounds like continuously morphing psychedelic visions. Nothing about entity contact. Nothing, but raw concentration and a stilling of the mind. The jhanas are states of absorption induced by concentration. His actual enlightenment was independent of the mental state he was in. It was because of a realization he made that he become enlightened.

Psychedelics are not described in any shape form or fashion in any of the Buddhist text that I have read...and no I have not read them all, but I have read the entire pali cannon which is considered by many to be the oldest and closest to his original words.

I do see one reference to 'herb' in the yoga sutras of patanjali, so I don't deny that these were used and known about, but since one of the conditions for enlightenment laid out by the Buddha was that it be LASTING I'm certain he would have walked away from psychedelics as a lessor path that did not bare him lasting enlightenment.

So I'm very curious as to the source of your claims about Buddhist mental states and psychedelics. Cause those words up there are as close to the mouth of the Buddha as most scholars believe you can get.


Peace

 

[joedirt]

BTW the source for my previous post was:

"In the Buddha's words": An anthology of Discourses from the Pali Canon

Authored by Bhikku Bodhi.

 

[joedirt]

And the thing that I got from these experiences, more than anything, is that we are truly and interconnectedly part of the entire whole; that the one true god is the totality of the whole thing, this thing that is you, that is me, that is all of us;

That God is Self in its wholeness.

^This is essentially what I have gathered as well.

The issue I struggle with now is: I've gotten the message is it time to hang up the phone?

To be sure I like psychedelics, but have they already given me the everything that can be given? I suspect so, but either way I like to go back and recharging every so often.

The clear light is something I wish all humans could experience at least once in their lifetime. The experience of being one with everything, without judgement, is simply the peak experience we can have as humans. I count myself among the lucky few to have had a real godhead mystical experience...even if it was drug induced.

peace

I like where this thread has headed very strongly. I find where I'm at now..that Im posed with the incessant question "Is it time to hang up the phone" and work with what i've been given?

I go back n' forth in my head daily. I haven't smoked a solid dose of changa in several months due to the one experience that halted me in my tracks Welcome to the DMT-Nexus which you had posted in joedirt. That experience solidified this whole 'God' concept to me.

Maybe I should just hang it all up and live my life to the fullest and with as much compassion as possible. That seems to be what I'm left with in most of my strong experiences. All of life rests on this infinite capacity for novelty and compassion...pure love and the sheer joy to create an infinite multitude of experience seeking lifeforms such as ourselves.

It's really a beautiful thing.

It sounds like you and I are at very similar positions in our respective paths.

 

[Vodsel]

So, in your opinion, those who have achieved a higher state of consciousness without using psychedelics are "dead people"? Sufis and tibetan monks are "dead people"?

Undoubtedly, the striking parallels between "The legend about Chakdor" and the Hindu legend of the origin of soma show that the Buddhist amrita and the Hindu soma were at one time understood to be identical. Moreover, the principal property of amrita is, to this day, perceived by Buddhists as being a species of inebriation, however symbolically this inebriation may be interpreted. Why else would beer (Tibetan chhang, "barley beer" ) be used by yogins as a symbolic substitute for amrita [Ardussi]? Conversely, why else would the term bDud.rTsi be used as a poetic synonym for beer?

--(The God Who Drank Urine)

I am aware that some mystical doctrines and disciplines might have a source in rituals involving psychedelics, like soma or kykeon. I am also aware of the traditional use of urine for recycling compounds. But that was not my point.

My point is that tibetan buddhists or sufis, for instance, achieve very profound states of consciousness without using any psychedelic substances. You seem to suggest that using psychedelics is a necessary condition for "real life", for accessing "the truth", and I'm simply pointing out that it's easy find many notable exceptions to that, nowadays and in the past. Regardless of the fact those exceptions might have connections to traditions of psychedelic use in ancient times.