There is no substitute for a trained Shaman! Grandmother/Grandfather. Thank you Nexus!

[christian]

A dieta is a diet. You can add an a to the end of the word but it's still just another diet.

The Shipibo dieta is to learn from the plant spirits they are dieting and use them. The reason they do this alone in the Jungle is to get away from any distractions

As well as eating a bland diet, they want 100% focus on learning from that plant. It's more than just 'sensitising' oneself, it's about learning from plants, it's 'university of mother nature's finest teacher plants' time!

Completely different from fasting, or the ideas of using herbal decoctions in the west.

I have a lot of respect for this way, because it makes complete sense to me that certain plants have certain powers of learning. Buy eating a bland diet, and staying in isolation, when one focusses on the plat to 'diet', one can really get to proper understanding of it. You'll never be able to do that in the standard 'diet', or by going on fasts, etc. That's why i think fasts are misguided. Perhaps people like Buddha became enlightened from their own internal neurotransmitters, because they ate almost nothing, Perhaps it was from some teacher plant that somehow he ate without knowing. For sure, your food is an important consideration if seeking understandings of spiritual realms. Always has been, always will.

A 'dieta' in Shipibo terms is NOT a diet in western terms, even though it translates as one. It's something different.

 

[aliendreamtime]

I find the ideas people often have about "shamanism" in general to be silly.

People romaticise about all of this stuff, and dream of some exotic apprenticeship in a far off land etc..and that if that does not happen you cant be a "shaman"..that white americans cant be "shamans"..or that a "shaman" even has to have a human teacher.

Maria Sabina is probly the most well know currandero around the world..a great healer who began eating mushrooms when she was 9 I think, with her sister..all by themselves as children picking them in nature, eating them and rolling around laughing. This is how she became a great mushroom currandero. She just ate mushrooms and at some point people realized that she was a currandero. She never spoke of long term diets and years of abstinence..it's very simple, really.

Pablo Amaringa as far as I understand had no human teacher either..the guy was sick and went off into the jungle and did a diet on his own and began working with ayahuasca and ayahuasca was his teacher.

Many of these people really are just like us. I dont buy into these romantic and exotic ideas people get all wrapped up in when it comes to this sort of thing. Traditions are just things that people made up at some point..everything was once new. I would bet that 99% of the ayahuasqueros that people in the west drink with are not a reflection of the pure pre-contact amazonian ways of doing things..and thats just normal..everything is in flux..everything shifts and adapts..humans are a very flexible species in that way..

People say we in the west cant do this whole thing..I think thats a load of bs and extremely disempowering for an individual to believe.

The mestizo people took what they had to work with and made it into something that many westerners today think of as the traditional ways of ayahuasca..but it is not. It is just a recent adaption..noone sang spanish icaros or spat florida water on people in the amazon..people just took what they had to work with in the present, and worked with it.

This is what we in the west need to do, to reclaim our right to do this work and move foreward without piggybacking too much on the cultures of others. We can borrow and adapt..and we can certainly learn from them but if we can not stand on our own two feet at some point than we suck.

I agree. I think there are aspects that we should save, like the power of forming deep relationships with other plants, and using their essences for floral baths, incense, pusangas, diets, etc. As well as using music to drive the experience.

Of course Maria Sabina didnt diet, but their diet wasnt nearly as synthetic as a western diet of fried foods, msg, high fructose corn syrup, aspartame, etc. I think the major underlying theme of 'shamanism' and plant-spirit curing practices is to remain pure enough so that you arent unwittingly mislead into performing acts for some type of malevolent force. This means keeping greed, selfish desires, ambitiousness etc. at bay. I think self-discipline and sacrifice help deter such behavior.

Traditionally, I believe that if you begin taking ayahuasca on your own, by yourself, you are considered to be a shaman.

I dont think being a shaman is impossible as a westerner. the word 'shamanism' was championed by some anthropologists because of the overlap of indigenous healing practices across the globe. These collectively got termed 'shamanism' after the quintessential siberian practices.

I think reading a great deal about the universal, overlapping rituals, cosmologies, practices etc. that span a multitude of cultures, and then exploring with those models to discover what works for you is the best way to remain authentic in the western world.
I think that not only should we be open to traditional plant spirit shamanism, but we, as the largest contributors of biodiversity loss, pollution, and disruption of natural cycles, have an obligation to remember these practices on the cultural scale.

 

[christian]

I think the major underlying theme of 'shamanism' and plant-spirit curing practices is to remain pure enough so that you arent unwittingly mislead into performing acts for some type of malevolent force. This means keeping greed, selfish desires, ambitiousness etc. at bay. I think self-discipline and sacrifice help deter such behavior.

Traditionally, I believe that if you begin taking ayahuasca on your own, by yourself, you are considered to be a shaman.

Alien, youre entitled to your beliefs, but i think you're factually incorrect.

The 'Dieta' is done for the reasons i already mentioned, and someone who drinks Aya alone is certainly NOT a shaman, because a Shaman is someone who has dedicated their life to their job which is a pretty serious one, with responsabilities.

Regarding Maria Sabina, what evidence do you have about her diet, and BTW, like it's possible to do a Aya 'dieta', surely she was doing a shroom dieta, after all she devoted herself to them over many a year.

 

[nen888]

christian wrote:

someone who drinks Aya alone is certainly NOT a shaman, because a Shaman is someone who has dedicated their life to their job which is a pretty serious one, with responsabilities.

..agree absolutely! it's about spending most of their lives healing others..! that's shamanism..not sitting and healing or enjoying oneself..
mastering the ingestion of entheogenic preparations is not enough to qualify as 'shamanism'..
it's generally regarded as very hard and community orientated work where it exists traditionally.
and just setting up a nice space with good music is not shamanism..it's whether the people in the circle are being personally worked on, from a practioners' POV, which makes it thus..
and of course responsibility for others in their care..this is a serious point..

 

[christian]

christian wrote:

someone who drinks Aya alone is certainly NOT a shaman, because a Shaman is someone who has dedicated their life to their job which is a pretty serious one, with responsabilities.

..agree absolutely! it's about spending most of their lives healing others..! that's shamanism..not sitting and healing or enjoying oneself..
mastering the ingestion of entheogenic preparations is not enough to qualify as 'shamanism'..
it's generally regarded as very hard and community orientated work where it exists traditionally.
and just setting up a nice space with good music is not shamanism..it's whether the people in the circle are being personally worked on, from a practioners' POV, which makes it thus..
and of course responsibility for others in their care..this is a serious point..

Yes, Nen.

The difference between Gringo 'Shamans' cashing in on the trail of tourists wanting to "TRY"? aYA, is completely different from those who's sole purpose is to cure people who are ill. If it was just about singing some icaros, dishing out some Aya, then that's just just an Ayahuasquero- not a shaman.

 

[jamie]

^there are not "shamans" in peru anyway. If we are going to get into semantics there is about 100+ different terms for that role, a role which is not identical to a siberian shaman. Currandero is the most appropriate term if we want to be(somewhat) formal but it's a spanish adaptation.

 

[nen888]

^..it's true that the word 'shaman' is now used out of its siberian context..the general definition of 'community healer' is similar though..'shaman' is i think a good enough word, given it's modern use, to apply to different cultures, which of course all have their own terms..
..the core definition is the healer aspect..this is what true Shamans from siberia do, using drumming and chant rather than plant entheogens..
..in South American terms, sure Curandero is an appropriate term, and shoudn't simply be applied to all people who know how to brew entheogenic potions..

 

[christian]

^there are not "shamans" in peru anyway

well, ok, we can split hairs if you want to, but Shaman is also used by some. But we can still differentiate a Curandero from an Ayahuasquero.

One can work with the spirits, the other can't.

 

[BecometheOther]

I disagree that a shaman is someone whos life is dedicated to healing others, there are healing shamans but there are also bewitching shamans, they are shamans but do not heal, so by definition that is not correct but only a generalization of what a "shaman" is.

I think a shaman is anyone with a special calling from the plants to explore these realms of conciousness beyond our ordinary perception. Not only someone who does this, but is very good at it, and can lead others and understands it, I think some shamans heal, but also i think some part of being a shaman is "magical voyaging" to the unseen realms, not just healing people, not that theres anything wrong with that of course...

Also, why offer so much criticism to someone who is asking questions, and reporting an experience, do you think yourself better able to interperit their experience than them themselves?

Also i think it is not anyones place to sound like an expert on peruvian shamanism, unless of course that person has undergone a full apprenticship for themselves and really understands what they are talking aobut....

We have pretty much established that these methods and traditional techniques can have real value, the key is to understand the process at work and to adapt it to our situation, that way it is authentic and we are not regurgitating. So there should be no argument on that, and which tradition is proper to follow, because you must make your own authentic tradition, and learn what you can,

We should share ideas for genuine practice and technique of our own what works for you? instead of fighting eachotehr about what exactly peruvian shamans or curranderos do..

 

[nen888]

^..it's the fact that this kind of healing-based work, which is a common designation in pre-european influenced cultures, is becoming very rare that knowledge of it's existence needs to be preserved..

if you've ever been lucky enough to undergo healing from a dedicated individual, then differentiating this approach becomes important..why? i personally wouldn't surrender my health and being in entheogenic session to most people..there are some i trust..the definition of 'true' shaman is to define what i trust..substitute the term 'spirit healer' if shaman is unacceptable..
there are individuals both in South America and Europe/elsewhere who have run very questionable sessions (in terms of safety/supervision) which have lead to trauma and death..a community of any kind needs yard-sticks by which to judge the efficacy or ethics of people giving others mind-altering plants..

..taking medicine on one's own, or with friends is one thing..taking responsibility for a wider range of people (who are not known personally) is another..

BecomeTheOther wrote:

there are healing shamans but there are also bewitching shamans, they are shamans but do not heal, so by definition that is not correct but only a generalization of what a "shaman" is.

..i have to respectfully disagree..these are 'sorcerers', or 'brujos' or just dodgy 'ayahuasqueros'..
not 'curanderos' which at least jamie agreed to use as a term..whether it's africa, or australia, or peru, there's folks trusted to heal (say your wife or children) and those who are known to be able to do magic (sorcery) with or without plants..the almost universally 'indigenous' cross-cultural perspective is that pursuit of personal power and gain is not trustworthy in the wider community..why should i trust someone and their brew..
better to do one's own, sure, if there isn't any kind of trusted and trained person(s) about..

also, the kind of training many of these practitioners do is very demanding..most people would give up..too hard..a lot of discipline..yes, people can do such training on their own, but i know very few people go to the extents these traditional systems do..

i'm not sure which 'argument' you're referring to, but personally i am also talking about community sanctioned traditional healers in many different cultures..not just Sth America..'shaman' is a general term to designate the orientation..it's not even specifically about whether they use entheogens or not..

Also i think it is not anyones place to sound like an expert on peruvian shamanism, unless of course that person has undergone a full apprenticship for themselves and really understands what they are talking aobut.

..a few here have spent quite a bit of time with such people, who tend to instruct automatically..

I think some shamans heal, but also i think some part of being a shaman is "magical voyaging" to the unseen realms

..that, IMO, is for Everyone..we can all magically voyage..no special tricks there..just the plants and spirit..

 

[jamie]

"this is what true Shamans from siberia do, using drumming and chant rather than plant entheogens.."

They definatly use entheogens.

 

[jamie]

"i have to respectfully disagree..these are 'sorcerers', or 'brujos' or just dodgy"

But nen that brings up other problems..They are not sorcerers or brujos anymore than they are shamans. This is a really big problem I felt was present when I was studying the subject of shamanism/magickal healing etc in college. Sorcerers and brujos have nothing to do with anything within american indian culture. These are terms from across the atlantic taken out of context..and yet you find it all over some anthropology textbooks.

A brujo is a witch. To say that these people who do the opposite of healing are brujos is to step all over another culture just becasue the spanish chose to use the apply the term to the magickal practices of south america. It is a catholic bastardization of the term and I wish it would stop being used in this context..

It is the same as how in Iskut and other tribes in BC for example, "witchcraft" is feared..when in reality it has nothing to do with wtichcraft. These people just heard the white christion missionaries who hated paganism use the term in a negative way and so it has stuck.

 

[jamie]

I disagree that a shaman is someone whos life is dedicated to healing others, there are healing shamans but there are also bewitching shamans, they are shamans but do not heal, so by definition that is not correct but only a generalization of what a "shaman" is.

I think a shaman is anyone with a special calling from the plants to explore these realms of conciousness beyond our ordinary perception. Not only someone who does this, but is very good at it, and can lead others and understands it, I think some shamans heal, but also i think some part of being a shaman is "magical voyaging" to the unseen realms, not just healing people, not that theres anything wrong with that of course...

Also, why offer so much criticism to someone who is asking questions, and reporting an experience, do you think yourself better able to interperit their experience than them themselves?

Also i think it is not anyones place to sound like an expert on peruvian shamanism, unless of course that person has undergone a full apprenticship for themselves and really understands what they are talking aobut....

We have pretty much established that these methods and traditional techniques can have real value, the key is to understand the process at work and to adapt it to our situation, that way it is authentic and we are not regurgitating. So there should be no argument on that, and which tradition is proper to follow, because you must make your own authentic tradition, and learn what you can,

We should share ideas for genuine practice and technique of our own what works for you? instead of fighting eachotehr about what exactly peruvian shamans or curranderos do..

I dont think anyone is saying that amazonian traditions, and the traditions of all first nations peoples dont hold power. They hold a lot of power. The title of this thread is that there is no substitute..which is a whole other discussion. I dont agree with that claim..

The thing is that the traditions of first nations peoples should be be respected and preserved..and not commodified. I think there is a lot of commidification of these traditions, especially in relation to ayahuasca practices. In some resepcts it is a good thing becasue it brings money to these people to support their communities in ways other than deforestation etc..but I then have to wonder how much money even goes to the indigenous peoples who are working at high end retreats owned and run by westerners?

I feel like a lot of it gets watered down..so we are left with sort of watered down reliks of the thing. This is why I think in some ways it is more authentic to just build our own model from the ground up..it wont happen overnight and you wont get there with a 4 week shamanism class you pay all your savings for..it has to be authentic.

The people I came across who apprenticed in the amazon had all kinds of stuff to say about how long they were abstinent for and how they did dieta etc..but in reality what it came down to was some white guy who wanted $300 per person to drink ayahuasca for a couple hours in canada and then go home when it's over. I cant help but look at that and feel like maybe what some guy did in the amazon really just does not necessarily make it authentic.

Personally I feel like it is some guy dressed up like a shipibo and then asking for a lot of money.

Of course there are people out there who I think are authentic, and it has nothing to do with race..but I also think there is a lot of people who sort of idealize native american culture and are willing to pay for shotty models of the real thing..it is a double edged sword.

 

[olympus mon]

I read this thread over the past 2 days and its quite fascinating.

I live here in Peru, and I'm happy with some of the opinions and understandings of this topic, especially by people that haven't been to these places personally but are spot on ...ahem Jaime:wink: .

Its a complex topic, there is soooo much bull and points within the booming Aya tourism boom and shamanism as a whole that I've hesitated to even get involved in the topic but I guess I have, Lol.

Its, so complex, vendors as well have an effect and place in the crazy, spiritual justification and injustice, fraud so many don't know.

Shamans hmmmmmmm..... I have learned to dislike that word.

 

[nicechrisman]

I find inequality of wealth can often be an obstacle in people from different worlds making a true connection. Makes things challenging for both parties in different ways.

 

[nen888]

"this is what true Shamans from siberia do, using drumming and chant rather than plant entheogens.."

They definatly use entheogens.

..thanks for the vid and reminder jamie..i was visualising Nepalese shamans when i hastily wrote that (though i'm sure they have a few shrooms up their sleeves too..)

..as for 'sorcerer'/brujo vs. curandero..well, yeah these are all borrowed terms..
in the context of what i have deeply studied (e. african, aus originals, and a little quetchua) i still see a common general distinction between more trusted healers, and people who have 'knowledge' but self-motivation as the drive..
individuals make their own judgements of various healers..in south america, though, there seem to be a lot more people with public 'curandero' skills..the 'shaman' in my usage of the term tends to have approval from tribal elders of the community..but it's subjective..
in our modern context we still need criteria by which to assess the ethics, effectiveness, experience etc. of people dosing others with medicine..
like, if a doctor does something dodgy i've got the medical association to complain to..same an acupuncturist..
so entheogenic medicine practitioners should not be free of such scrutiny..
it's responsibility

 

[jamie]

^actaully yeah..sort of off topic but the nepalese shamans have tons of psychoactive plants they use. Ratsch has a whole video about this called "the fountain of culture" or something all about nepalese shamanic use of psychoactive plants, including a grass related to phalaris that the shamans said they learned about from watching bears get intoxicated on it.
I think many of these people are Kirati but not sure..

 

[christian]

Having spent at least 2 years already in Peru,as well as many more years in other south american countries, i already knew that the bargained prices that i was offered in San Francisco de Yarinacocha were still too high. Speaking to Locals in the market, they confided that they paid less than $5 to see a Shaman, err curandero. Actually more like 2 dollars!

Obviously the naieve tourist, and the $ sign have affected things and given rise to the famous term of Ayahuasca tourism. Curanderos that would treat from free to a couple of dollars are now cashing in on the act, as well as the con merchants who realise that most tourists just wanna drink and listen to a few icaros rather than be 'cured'.

Gringo 'shamen' are on the rise, advertising their packages of 6 day intensives for 'only' $600!! , the list goes on....

There are some real curanderos, but there's a lot more Ayahuasqueros, and Gringos following suit. I can't blame them, i just wish they DIDN'T charge such ridiculously high prices. There's nothing worse than paying a price that is really artificialiy high. Some gringo's say it's only thanks to them that the tradition that was once dyeing is still continuing. What they won't tell you though, is that they are obviously milking that and the $ sign, to a much greater level than the local curanderos.

I think it's THIS that is causing more damage than anything. It's more about the $$$ than anything else these days!

Obviously, working with a Curandero at local prices is gonna feel a damn site better than paying OTT gringo prices. I think honesty has a lot to do with it, and unfortunately feel that like the Missionaries have been a threat to the cultural traditions, that so is the Dollar.:?

 

[christian]

I disagree that a shaman is someone whos life is dedicated to healing others, there are healing shamans but there are also bewitching shamans, they are shamans but do not heal, so by definition that is not correct but only a generalization of what a "shaman" is.

You mean 'Brujo'. We are not talking about them, we are talking about Shamen, err Curanderos...

 

[nen888]

..the Quetchua say the Inca first changed/corrupted the original old ways that had been for a long time..Pachamama..then came the spanish..

but money breeds greed..now it's rock star cocaine fuelled big dollars which threaten by further compromising values..i agree with jamie in the sense that it's can be like: 'he's south american..he must be a real shaman..'

selling out pachamama..