Thoughts on psychedelics and capitalism?

[bismillah]

I've been wondering what other people think about the new buzz around psychedelic medicine companies that's taken the world by storm. I'll admit, I've got a hefty chunk of my savings invested in a couple myself, although I missed the huge boom a couple months back. Gnats.

Do you guys sit well with the idea of profiting from psychedelics? Do you think these new startups have their hearts in the right places?

Personally I'm really excited to see where this all goes. I don't think psychs can be reduced to growth charts and lab trials; I cringe especially when researchers say they want to isolate the neurological effects from the psychedelic experience (I mean, honestly! Who are we kidding?). Nonetheless I think this is just the kind of thing needed to get big suits and hardheads to stop scoffing at the mere word—and, as a result, to get these medicines out to people who need them. I'd say a lot of these new companies seem to be treating the subject with the reverence it deserves, although who knows what goes on behind the scenes. I wouldn't mind making some money off the back of it either, I can't lie

 

[dreamer042]

At this point it's a bit late in the game to be wishing it was other than it is. Psychedelics have been capitalized. This is now an industry, with remarkable growth potential.

I certainly understand the concerns with this model, but looking back at where we are coming from, it's undoubtedly a step forward. When your starting place is full criminalization, even the most heavily vertically integrated and patented commercial approach outlawing all forms of unsanctioned personal use, leaves those of us eating homegrown mushrooms in our living rooms in exactly the same place we always have been.

Given this is the case, what do we have to lose? A sanctioned commercial approach will open these potentially life changing experiences to millions of people that would not have otherwise been willing to seek them out. The potential for positive outcomes at the both the personal and collective level is unprecedented.

I would like to suggest voting with your dollars and choosing to invest in companies who's business models align with your own values and not necessarily just those that have the most profitable prospectus. Perhaps we could start an investment thread and more thoroughly examine the various companies comprising the industry along with their values and potential for growth?

 

[Ramma]

no, they dont have their hearts in the right place. The dark arts and the tools with which we practice should not be ridiculed by being exploited in the frame of capitalists ventures. The marketplace is a lousy place for the exposition of the unmanifest. These secrets should be honored and shared in whispers in the dead of night under a full moon.

 

[Tomtegubbe]

I would like to suggest voting with your dollars and choosing to invest in companies who's business models align with your own values and not necessarily just those that have the most profitable prospectus. Perhaps we could start an investment thread and more thoroughly examine the various companies comprising the industry along with their values and potential for growth?

I think this is a key point. I don't think the capitalist system needs to be turned over. It just needs people with right values, who can utilize the system, but not see it as the end goal. It also takes responsibility from investors to put your money into something you believe in rather than something you believe will profit you fastest.

The ease of growing mushrooms for example makes this market tough to monopolize and once the flood gates open and the criminalization ends, this might become quite a distributed and healthy market actually.

 

[bismillah]

I would like to suggest voting with your dollars and choosing to invest in companies who's business models align with your own values and not necessarily just those that have the most profitable prospectus. Perhaps we could start an investment thread and more thoroughly examine the various companies comprising the industry along with their values and potential for growth?

I agree. I would not mind an investing thread.

I hope that these companies will do their part in keeping these experiences sacred and decidedly un-corporate-ified. I'm still going to do it all myself, as I'm sure many of you will, cause we're all hipsters 8)
In good faith, our personally directed use and the capitalistic model will be able to coexist—I doubt the government will bother with prosecuting individuals unless they get too ambitious and think about starting a competing business (can't comment on the states but I find it almost certain that the Canadian government will find some way to profiteer psychedelics, as with cannabis and alcohol). Unfair, but better than total illegality.

 

[jamie]

It's not ideal. It is better than psychedelics and communism..sorry psymposia.

..had to say it. I think there is some cause for concern, I also have followed psymposia and have been mostly disgusted...

lol Im glad people want to discuss this. Fun topic...:| :|

 

[Achilles]

To me it’s a good thing. Psychedelics have been given a negative image for a long time and though they’ll ultimately just fall into the hands of the pharmaceutical companies I still think going from a “ hard drug” to a “medicine” is a big leap. People at least will be snapped out the propaganda and open minded enough to try psychedelic experiences instead of funding entire law enforcement agencies to hunt them down. As far as the money side that’s inevitable. We live in a world where everything is capitalized off of. Psychedelics are currently capitalized off of now on the black market. At least this way its some what legitimate.

 

[changaforchange]

I think this is a key point. I don't think the capitalist system needs to be turned over. It just needs people with right values, who can utilize the system, but not see it as the end goal. It also takes responsibility from investors to put your money into something you believe in rather than something you believe will profit you fastest.

totally agree with the above : also, I believe that any functioning system (good or bad as it is) it can be changed only from the inside.

I would also be very interested in investing for a change in perception and social growth.

 

[murklan]

Thanks for bringing this up bismillah! Important topic, but it's also a hard one. Bringing in the world of human politics and ideologies is a often way to get into disputes and conflicts. But that's where we are and even how far in hyperspace we go, we still return to this messy sticky world, being depending on it for life.

I'm really concerned about the corporate psychedelic thing. The main reason it the underlying worldview, culture and values that governs most of the actors within big pharma. I mean it's not hard to see that they don't have the best record for ethics. And that is even within the system of capitalism, with says quite a lot I think.

I don't hold the view that if only people would try psychedelics the world would change for the better. My view is that psychedelics can be used and misused for whatever reason that the set and setting gives. Also capitalist, fascist, racist, misogynic, monotheistic, anthropocentric or whatever mindsets that I don't want more of.

BUT. There are also many reasons to help spreading the amazing gifts of plants, mushrooms and other substances to more people and groups that have so far not been able to learn with and from it. I don't want to be elitist about it.

And jamie, I enjoy psymposia (and support them) even if I find them to antagonistic sometimes. I really think it's an important voice and perspective.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Seeing as we've mentioned capitalism:
[youtube]

This is the water we swim in, dear fish.

 

[Ramma]

russel brand is smart

 

[Jagube]

Psychedelics, in order to become accessible to more people, need to be produced and delivered to them.
Not everyone can grow or prepare their own and the law is one of the reasons, but not the only one.

If someone can do that, that can be a good thing and capitalism, in general, is better at meeting demand with supply than anything else.

Then once there is a psychedelic industry, they will be taken out of Schedule I and the home grower will be able to honor and share "these secrets [..] in whispers in the dead of night under a full moon" without the risk of a 15 year prison sentence.

But I don't want to tell anyone how they should honor them. That's not what they have taught me.

 

[strtman]

You cannot trust pharmaceutical companies. They do exist for their own benefit.

So before they get their hands on psychoactive substances and make big money with it, we have to find a way to compensate the ones who originally used them, the indigenous people, the ones who shared it with us. Those who have ‘historical rights’.

And that system has to be strictly controlled. We all know that otherwise they will finish last.

 

[changaforchange]

hey fellas.

last summer I had a chance to discuss this particular topic with a scientist and his wife who both work in the pharmaceutical industry in germany. they were on holidays where i was working and, after the initial acquaintance, they noticed my pretty eloquent tattoos (one amanita muscaria per each forearm and DMT chemical structure on my upper chest) and asked me about them. As usual, I did explain the reason for the tattoo and asked if they were aware of the benefits one can obtain by using such compounds in the proper manner. It turned out that he is actually in charge of the research within the experimental department that deals with new organic compounds and the wife is the nurse who delivers and administer such experimental doses to hospitals all around germany. Back then, they did already confirm what we can all see happening today: several companies (the one I am seriously aware it's called Cybin) are now investing in the preparation of new drugs for their market synthesising organic compounds to make them more available as alternative to the obsolete drugs available to this day.

I thought - and I still think - this is a very good thing, however, given the many facets of our modern society, I believe it is almost impossible to have an ethical behaviour (or ethical policies) from every company, and therefore a foot in is better than no foot whatsoever. Stating this, we can all see the benefits of the partial legalisation of marijuana and the open market we have today for CBD oils available pretty much to everyone, everywhere.

I just found a very interesting article on the subject : Psychedelics, Capitalism, and the Commodification of the Sacred

Please, do remember that this is just my personal opinion, which I am always happy to share... wishing a wonderful day to everyone.

 

[BongQuixote]

The path from drug to user will vary, but I don't see how capitalism is a better or worse method than other systems. There will always be ways of getting psychedelia compounds to those who want them.

If there are enough users of these compounds, and they start to have an actual impact on the way we arrange our lives in society, our values, priorities etc, capitalism as an political system will probably be rejected in favor of a more humane and holistic approach to governing. I suspect a more Scandinavian style socio-capitalism with a strong focus on individual needs and fairness, combined with liberalism, is where we could end up.

 

[Exitwound]

Pros:
- People shouldn't be spending time in prison because they take shrooms (or any other drug) or grow cacti. This is what commercialization of psychedelics should help with.
- It will bring much more money for scientific research into the field, which is great.
- It will help with quality/reliability of the stuff, you wouldn't have to trust your dealer and/or test your drugs (people do this mind-blowingly seldom currently, most of the time trusting a friend or a plug).
- It will make psychedelics much more accessible (more people in need get to experience health benefits of these substances)

Cons:
- It will make psychedelics much more accessible I think at least in our times, everybody who wanted to try them 'shrooms or 'cid had a chance to do so, prohibition never stopped anybody I guess. General availability will do to psychedelics same thing as general availability did to the Internet (for example).
- Effect of total connectedness (Internet) + general availability of psychedelics = lots of new crazy gurus and messiahs.
- Big pharma will make big money and try to rip everybody off while on it.
- Aliens will finally invade Earth in return, for mass-invading their sacred dimensions.

 

[Jagube]

The path from drug to user will vary, but I don't see how capitalism is a better or worse method than other systems. There will always be ways of getting psychedelia compounds to those who want them.

I grew up in a communist state. It was really hard to legally buy anything other than toilet paper and vinegar. Most other things were only available to buy with state-issued coupons that allowed you to get let's say one bar of chocolate a month, and maybe an extra one if you had kids.
They would advertise in the state-owned media (the only media there was) that a ship of oranges was on its way from Cuba, due to arrive before Christmas, and make it the biggest news, and people would only see an orange once a year and didn't know what a banana looked like until 1989.

 

[jamie]

You cannot trust pharmaceutical companies. They do exist for their own benefit.

So before they get their hands on psychoactive substances and make big money with it, we have to find a way to compensate the ones who originally used them, the indigenous people, the ones who shared it with us. Those who have ‘historical rights’.

And that system has to be strictly controlled. We all know that otherwise they will finish last.

I know it must be really hard for the bigots to understand, but there are some things out there (like ketamine, MDMA, and LSD) which were not invented by Indigenous peoples. Psilocybin seems to grow naturally everywhere people do. I for instance (a white male) grew up picking local psilocybes which lack any evidence of historical use.

Cannabis use, even in Norway, seems to date back thousands of years.

I guess you are referring to Iboga, peyote, kambo or ayahuasca? Endangered species should be illegal to trade on any market at this point. Period. The only trade that could be ethical would be what is grown in excess of what is used to repopulate wild populations etc.

DMT is found everywhere. No cultural group of people is owed money simply because other people use DMT, with or without harmalas.

Noone ownes Trichocereus. If a person wants to put in years growing cacti sustainably or do the labour of mescaline synthesis, that is also they're business.

I dont pay a special tax to natives of polynesia every time I buy a surfboard off someone who spends hours making them. I shape surfboards myself, and have heard more than once these sorts of accusations in the surf community. A lot of people feel white people have no place in surfing and owe money to polynesians. This sort of logic can be expanded to almost anything if a person wants to put that spin on it. White people with dreads is appropriation, black people own rap music. If you like that world, have at it.

Sorry, but your post is divisive and unhelpful. It comes off as more a virtue signal, using the angle of race or priviliage but not in a way that is any sort of accuracte representation of reality.

Noone owns the rights to these things, especially not when most of the substances being used are not even naturally occuring, do not exist within any traditional framework, nor are they exploiting endangered species.

Iboga, toads, and maybe...MAYBE ayahuasca are exceptions. Most people doing research are not using iboga, and even if they use ibogaine, that does not mean they owe royalties to people in Africa. The people intelligent enough to learn synthesis deserve any respect they get. Learning chemist y is no small feat to be dismissed because some people want to be so edgy and politically correct.

5-MeO-DMT is very easy for people to synth on mass, and the Bufo Alvarious has no traditional use anyway. If people want to put some kind of tax on it, pay it to the damn toads and stop everyone(Seri too) from milking them. Octavio is to blame for this, he led everyone to believe the Seri used Bufo toads.

Do we all owe something to the peoples who traditionally use Mimosa Hostilis?..What about how much Acacia confusa you all use? Is that sustainable compared to psilocybin?

Do YOU grow all your own cactus and mushrooms etc? If not, you participate in the market. I hope the money is where your mouth is.

I understand everyones frustration, but playing the race and ownership card is a mistake which will continue to fracture the "psychedelic community" farther...if such a community even exists. My dislike of pharma companies does not need to leave me any farther jaded than I already am.

 

[Jagube]

Well said, jamie.

Also, if the indigenous people had not discovered these plants, we would have. They discovered them first, because they grew in their area.

 

[Ramma]

what should be sold is a space, elegant, simple, natural, beautiful...The shaman's time and medicine is implicit in the purchase. The whole buisness thing should be geared towards procuring a fine piece of land, secluded, safe from wild animals, with lakes, mountains, trees, or other beautiful calming places. It should be intimate, very secret, and deeply calming. The way to avoid the cops is to have it run through word of mouth, never seeking out customers but letting the seekers come to you. this is how historically ocult practices have been carried out and its out of respect to the gods and the secrets they expound.