Conflict

[fink]

The premise is that we need conflict to progress and to defend ourselves from the universe. After who knows how many years of fighting just to survive on this planet. Stands to reason after we conquer the planet we have no one to fight but ourselves.

We fight on the world stage, on the street and even inside our own families.

Can we pass the burden of conflict to a different form of life? I am picturing robot wars on the grand scale in the designated warzone. Strict rules would apply for instance: not using any hardware that damages the planet.

We get to the point that no human ever kills another human and all diplomacy is solved with a mech war.

Is it ethical to do that to machines?

More importantly, has a higher form of conciousness already done that by creating us?

 

[Voidmatrix]

Is it ethical to do that to machines?

I feel like if these machines come with some amalgam of sentience then yes (as opposed to being remote controlled or something).

I guess it could also be considered wasteful.

Sounds constructive and productive though.

I think a somatic link up could make this even more satisfying psychologically, perhaps more therapeutic as well.

More importantly, has a higher form of conciousness already done that by creating us?

I immediately thought of Prometheus

One love

 

[Exitwound]

> The premise is that we need conflict to progress

My three cents:
1. Maybe we don't need conflict to progress and one day we (humanity) ascend on the next level of evolution and see our past ways as laughable: "funny how our primitive ancestors though <so-and-so> is unavoidable, when we can just do <this-and-that>"
2. Maybe next conflicts will get more and more immaterial, in terms of no physical confrontation, but economical/informational/psychological? (Already happened/happening to a degree, Cold War for example, modern cyber-warfare)
3. Maybe next obstacle/enemy will be of unimaginable scale and power, such as our fighting completely loses any sense and we switch to survival mode 3 body problem: for reference)


>More importantly, has a higher form of conciousness already done that by creating us?
imho: If you believe in "one-ness", then we are all parts of god-mind and in some sense created ourselves especially to experience existence in all forms and variations.

It's just feels so tangible and centered, because we are in this specific point of story and human life is very short, compared to eternity.
All things can hide in eternity and all outcomes. So there will be a dimension/time where we fight with war-robots for sure

 

[hugfortysix]

We get to the point that no human ever kills another human and all diplomacy is solved with a mech war.

Can't see that happening. One side will probably get annoyed about another using forbidden tech and then we end up fighting about it. Mass chemical castration would probably work better.

 

[fink]

imho: If you believe in "one-ness", then we are all parts of god-mind and in some sense created ourselves especially to experience existence in all forms and variations.

It's just feels so tangible and centered, because we are in this specific point of story and human life is very short, compared to eternity.
All things can hide in eternity and all outcomes. So there will be a dimension/time where we fight with war-robots for sure

One-ness, indeed. Suppose the one-ness requires conflict in order to fragment the self. Without conflict, the fragments find a mutual understanding and we are stuck with one-ness again.

 

[hugfortysix]

We get to the point that no human ever kills another human and all diplomacy is solved with a mech war.

Another thing that springs to mind, is that war involves getting the opposing side to capitulate. And the only way of getting this to happen is by causing sufference to your opposing side. Using mechs to do this is no different to deciding the outcome over playing...say monopoly against each other. We've had the age of enlightenment, the 60s and what have you over the years and nothing has changed. Apparently we have got more stupid as a species recently, rather than mentally evolving.. From the point of view of being in conflict, we are just animals and passing the burden of conflict to a different form of life is not in the spirit of one-ness. it's just humanity being egocentric...com dab.

 

[fink]

That is a good point hugfix.

I'm wondering if exploding each others hardware in a confined warzone may scratch the violent itch although monopoly... some might say we are destroying ourselves with capitalism at the same time as guns and bombs.

We develop so much beneficial tech due to the desire to best our opponents. But we cause so much harm in the process. It would have to be a gentleman's agreement to evolve to conflict without human loss.

We would also have to stop reproducing so much.

 

[rkba]

Some say that Wetiko prevents us from reaching the outer skirts of perception.

 

[fink]

Thank you rkba, that was an interesting read. Never heard of it before. What are your thoughts on the idea?

I'm not sure if it aligns with my personal philosophy on a few counts. If anything, life at every level destroys, consumes and steals energy from any possible victim on the cellular level right up to ourselves. Wetiko seems to be the standard behaviour of life, not an exclusively human condition. To call wetiko a sickness suggests abnormality, where in fact it seems to be the most normal facet of existence on earth. Kindness and compassion are the abnormality. The horrors that transpire in a drop of pond water rival our worst acts that we have inflicted on ourselves as humans

 

[Tripolation]

This all reminds me of the song 'Iron Man' by Black Sabbath.

Has he lost his mind?
Can he see or is he blind?
Can he walk at all
Or if he moves, will he fall?

Is he alive or dead?
Has he thoughts within his head?
We'll just pass him there
Why should we even care?

He was turned to steel
In the great magnetic field
When he traveled time
For the future of mankind

Nobody wants him
He just stares at the world
Planning his vengeance
That he will soon unfurl

Now the time is here
For Iron Man to spread fear
Vengeance from the grave
Kills the people he once saved

Nobody wants him
They just turn their heads
Nobody helps him
Now he has his revenge

Heavy boots of lead
Fills his victims full of dread
Running as fast as they can
Iron Man lives again

The Iron Man travels to the future to save mankind and is changed into steel. He becomes twisted and feared and snaps and begins killing those who he once attempted to save. Creating fear and destruction and the cycle of violence continues.

We could create an AI that is built to save us and perhaps it would turn on us and destroy us instead. Refusing to take part in war games, knowing there will never be a winner, instead choosing to end all war and end the cycle by destroying those who play the game to begin with. We could choose to end the cycle ourselves but we continue to be 'War Pigs'.

Generals gathered in their masses
Just like witches at black masses
Evil minds that plot destruction
Sorcerer of death's construction
In the fields the bodies burning
As the war machine keeps turning
Death and hatred to Mankind
Poisoning their brainwashed minds...
Oh Lord yeah!

Politicians hide themselves away
They only started the war
Why should they go out to fight?
They leave that role to the poor

Time will tell on their power minds
Making war just for fun
Treating people just like pawns in chess
Wait 'till their judgment day comes, yeah!

Now in darkness, world stops turning
Ashes where the bodies burning
No more war pigs have the power
Hand of God has struck the hour
Day of Judgment, God is calling
On their knees the war pigs crawling
Begging mercy for their sins
Satan, laughing, spreads his wings...
Oh Lord, yeah!

 

[rkba]

What are your thoughts on the idea?

I think that they are on to something, it strongly resonates with my own perceptual experiences.

life at every level destroys, consumes and steals energy from any possible victim on the cellular level right up to ourselves.

Life is also constructed by the same de(con)struction. It is an ever flowing recursive energy-wave.

How we perceive the (de)construction is up to our perception of the event. And perceptions are malleable.

Kindness and compassion

Kindness and compassion for one can be cruel and unforgiving to another. It is our perception that dictates the reality we experience.

To me, Wetiko blinds one from shifting perceptions within oneself and with that inmobilizes the soul. We're all affected, however one can attempt to break free by letting the Heart decide the path through the Garden of Perceptions.

 

[fink]

Beautiful, yes, I like your words and the mariposa.

I'm not sure if I can believe in a sickness of the soul currently. I'm strongly aligned (currently) with the idea that existence makes no mistakes.

I do strongly agree with you that our behaviour matches the wetiko description...however..

Everything is always exactly how it should be. Sickness as a concept suggests a recovery is the antidote. But how could life recover from constant and all encompassing perfection?

 

[hugfortysix]

although monopoly... some might say we are destroying ourselves with capitalism at the same time as guns and bombs.

Yes and coming to think of it, i've noted from the experiences i have had playing monopoly with my family and the resulting arguments, capitalism is a primary cause of the use of force and conflict. Nowadays if i play monopoly with my 8 year old, i let her off paying sometimes or do some other game related favour for her and she does likewise. But i sometimes wonder if i am making her too soft for the hard world to come. Survival and kindness can be a difficult balancing act to get right....

 

[fink]

Oh for sure, we have the same dilemma with our young kids. We try to find balance with the mother being a little softer and me taking the role of teaching the harsh realities of life when needed.

In the age of drone warfare and cyber manipulation, kids need to grow up quick to stand a chance