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Different forms of ingestion and dosages (smoked dmt, jurema/mimosa, syrian rue, ayahuasca, etc)

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endlessness

endlessness

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Important: If taking anything for first time, START LOW! These numbers below are just for general reference, remember that there are high individual variations, so be prudent.

DMT


SMOKED DMT FREEBASE:
(depending on smoking method) moderate/strong/breakthrough dose: 30-50mg

SMOKED JUNGLE SPICE FREEBASE:
10-40mg

INTRAMUSCULAR:
1mg/kg (source: lycaeum)

INTRAVENOUS:
moderate dose: 0.2mg/kg (source: Rick Strassman's experiments)
very strong dose: 0.4mg/kg (source: Rick Strassman's experiments)

SUBCUTANEOUS:
60-100mg (source:lycaeum)

ANAL:
?

ORAL (WITH MAOIS):
Moderate/Strong dose: 30-200mg.. VARIES A LOT depending on individual metabolism!! Having taken other psychedelics is no indication on the dosage one will need for oral DMT use. First timers with oral DMT should start with 30-50mg, not more!!!

JUNGLE SPICE ORAL (WITH MAOIS):
Little info! Start low, under 40mg

SUBLINGUAL (WITH MAOIS):
Moderate/Strong: 30mg

JUREMA/MIMOSA HOSTILIS INNER ROOTBARK


ORAL (WITH MAOIS):
3-5g (Some people report even 3g as strong doses. Start safe at no more than 3)

ORAL (WITHOUT MAOIS. NEEDS TO BE COLD WATER NON-ACIDIFIED INFUSION TO WORK)
Moderate/Strong Dose: 25-50g ( Source 1 , Source 2. Source 3, including words from Jonathan Ott @ last part of the page)


PSYCHOTRIA VIRIDIS

ORAL (WITH MAOIS)
Hawaiian or other potent chacruna- 10-25g
Standard chacruna 50-100g

DIPLOPTERYS CABRERANA/CHALIPONGA

ORAL (WITH MAOIS)
3-10 grams


MAOIS FOR ORAL DMT INGESTION


SYRIAN RUE/PEGANUM HARMALA
3g (source: Plants of the Gods)

BANISTERIOPSIS CAAPI VINE
20 - 100 grams depending on batch (As an example, Azarius pre-made pack dosage uses 50g)

BANISTERIOPSIS CAAPI LEAF
10-50g depending on batch (source of alk content in leaves)

SYRIAN RUE HARMALA EXTRACT (HARMINE/HARMALINE MIX) *
Oral:150-250mg

HARMALINE. *
Oral: 100-150mg
Sublingual (for vaporized dmt potentiation): 15-30mg

HARMINE *
Oral: 150-250mg
Sublingual (for vaporized dmt potentiation): 30mg

THH (tetrahydroharmine)
Oral: 150 - 250mg - Note: Does NOT orally activate DMT, too weak MAOI. Some sellers sold mixture of THH/harmine
Sublingual (for vaporized dmt potentiation): 30mg


MOCLOBEMIDE
150mg (Source needed, also remember just from top of the head)


* Values for freebase harmalas. For HCl weight, if pure, increase around 5-10%, but often HCl has salt contamination and therefore values need to be even further increased. You can dissolve a known amount of harmalas HCl in water and add a base to precipitate the freebase, and then when weighing the freebase you'll have a good idea how pure the HCl was.


NOTE: (thanks acolon) contents may vary depending on batch, therefore careful test is necessary for each different batch. These are all just aproximate values for people to have an idea.
 
My experience with the cold water MHRB infusion is that it does work without MAOI's. But if you want ayahuasca-like experiences you need much more then 25 grams. I experimented a lot with this stuff and eventually i decided to try it with a MAOI, but just a mild one so there would be no vomiting etc. I then took 100 gram MHRB cold water infusion combined with 100 grams passionflower extract and i took some mushrooms with it as well. It was a very powerfull experience. A strong ayahuasca trip (comparable with 25 grams mimosa) without the severe fysical effects that come with taking high doses of strong MAOI's. It seems maybe strange to combine this with mushrooms but the reason i did this was that i figured that these mushrooms would get my brain over the 'threshold', so then all the yuremamine would be effective.
 
ORAL (WITH MAOIS):
Moderate/Strong Dose: 9g (source: Plants of the Gods)

ORAL (WITHOUT MAOIS. NEEDS TO BE COLD WATER INFUSION TO WORK)
Moderate/Strong Dose: 25g ( this is one source that says so , and another thread with people also saying so. and another, including words from Jonathan Ott @ last part of the page)


PSYCHOTRIA VIRIDIS

ORAL (WITH MAOIS)

50-200grams

DIPLOPTERYS CABRERANA/CHALIPONGA

ORAL (WITH MAOIS)
4-100grams


MAOIS FOR ORAL DMT INGESTION


BANISTERIOPSIS CAAPI
20-100grams


FREEBASE HARMALINE
Vaporized: 50-100mg

These are all personal experience notes. The dMT content in both P. VIRIDIS and D. CABRERANA vary with each batch so much that experimentation with each new batch is necessary.
 
first post edited with new info, thanks acolon



and hey poly, please explain.. you say you took 100 (!!!) grams of mimosa, plus passionflower extract, plus mushrooms, and this is equivalent to 25 grams of mimosa? how does that make sense, taking 100 = taking 25? maybe you meant 10 and not 100?

I agree that dosages vary from people´s experiences and batch, I havent tried this myself so I can´t say, but from different reports around, I had never read so high numbers as you quote.. Was it mimosa inner root bark? Do you know if it was of good quality?
 
i live in mexico and i have had many experiences with true mimosa hostilis being active without an maoi. all over the net you can read that tenuiflora is active without maoi at 25-35 grams, but in my personal experience, it has always taken more like 85g-100g's of mimosa by itself for me to feel the effects, but it only lasts an hour. so that is alot of rootbark to chop up for such a short ride.

even though i can pick mimosa hostilis right out of my back yard, it still just makes more sense to me to mix 10g's of mimosa with 3 g's of syrian rue because not only is syrian rue very, very affordable, but it also requires between an 8th or a 10th of the mimosa required without using an maoi like syrian rue. also 10g's of real mimosa tenuiflora whole rootbark with 3 g's of good syrian rue always gives me a full 6 hour journey or longer.
 
endlessness said:
...
DIPLOPTERYS CABRERANA/CHALIPONGA

ORAL (WITH MAOIS)
4-100 grams
Click to expand...

This one needs updating.

100 grams with an MAOI? Holy crap! Are you sure about that?

That sounds like a massive overdose!

Most people consider 15 grams a very high does for Diplopterys cabrerana when used orally with an MAOI.

Diplopterys cabrerana contains up to 1.7% alkaloids (the typical weak stuff in 0.4%). So 100 grams could contain up to 1,700 mg of alkaloids! Diplopterys cabrerana sometimes contains lots of 5-MeO-DMT. SWIM has seen cases where the alkaloids are more than 20% 5-MeO-DMT. At the maximum of 1,700 mg of alkaloids from 100 grams of leaves and that being about 20% 5-MeO-DMT, that would be 340 mg of 5-MeO-DMT. I think you would die if you ingested that much 5-MeO-DMT with or without an MAOI.

SWIM found that Diplopterys cabrerana is active sublingually at 2-10 grams of leaves held as a quid in the mouth for about 10 minutes. This produces clearly psychedelic effects. This is because it contains a few alkaloids that are very active sublingually (like 5-MeO-DMT).

SWIM found that it is also active without an MAOI orally at about 4-20 grams. 5-MeO-DMT is active orally without MAOI in doses of about 20 mg and up.
 
endlessness said:
first post edited with new info, thanks acolon



and hey poly, please explain.. you say you took 100 (!!!) grams of mimosa, plus passionflower extract, plus mushrooms, and this is equivalent to 25 grams of mimosa? how does that make sense, taking 100 = taking 25? maybe you meant 10 and not 100?

I agree that dosages vary from people´s experiences and batch, I havent tried this myself so I can´t say, but from different reports around, I had never read so high numbers as you quote.. Was it mimosa inner root bark? Do you know if it was of good quality?
Click to expand...

Mimosa cold water infusion is orally effective without MAOI's. The effects are very weak though. So i compare the experience that resulted from this combination with what i would have had when i would have taken mimosa with caapi. The thing is, i like to experiment with all kinds of alternative ways because i really don't like the powerfull MAOI's. I tend to constantly worry about wether i didn't eat something wrong, etc. And this worries, i find even more unpleasant then the physical effects, like vomitting. And i don't like vommiting either, because i really like to sit back and relax and just let it all come to me instead of the first hour, knowing that i am going to throw up, just not when, now or in 20 minutes, and having to wait for that thing to happen first, before i can just relax.
 
Any news about efficacy of preparing Mimosa H. without an MAOI? I'd like to try this, but if no one else has had any success, then I don't want to waste good Mimosa...One writer here does say it works, but that "the effects are very weak."
Very weak compared to what? I guess the only thing to do is try it; everyone's chemistry is different.
 
Yes, it takes a lot of passionflower to work as an MAOI.

Caapi is about 1/12 the strength of Rue
Passion flower is about 1/80 the strength of Rue

1 lb of rue costs about $25.
1 lb of caapi costs about $50.
1 lb of passionflower costs about $15.

Passionflower is cheaper than caapi but it takes more, so in the end it costs about twice as much to use passionflower rather than caapi. Rue is by far the cheapest to use because it only takes 3 grams of it to work.

For passionflower leaves to work as an MAOI you need about 240 grams (8.4 ounces).

Look at this quote about the differences between DMT used with these different plant soures of MAOI
The passion flower is mentally the foggiest high, but curiously has the strongest "anti-depressant" effect. This may be related to the overall mix of alkaloids in the passion flower (see below). The syrian rue was the clearest, cleanest high with the caapi being, subjectively, in between. The caapi had the least "antidepressant" effect.
Click to expand...

Keep in mind that passionflower leaves were likely used, and not the flowers. The flowers are harder to find and are far more expensive and far more hallucinogenic and euphoric than the leaves, but I'm not sure if they have stronger MAOI effects than the leaves.
 
That quote regarding the 3 different MAOI resources (along with the rest of your comments) is very interesting, and sounds like it comes from a thoughtful experienced source.
Passion Flower extract is what I have on hand. There is an equivalency formula for the amount of extract to equal a dry amount. But I cannot tell if they mean leaves, or flowers.
The label on my Passionflower says ONE BOTTLE OF EXTRACT (30ml) is equal to approximately 15 grams of "aerial dried weight" equivalent of Passiflora Incarnata. Does aerial mean the flowers? And are flowers stronger than leaves?
So I hope that the flower is stronger than the passionflower leaves. I have 2 bottles of extract.
 
It's likely it would say FLOWERING TOPS if it was made from the actual flowers. The flowers cost a lot of money compared to the rest of the plant.

In my area (and most places in the world) passionflower is completely legal. I have both passionflower leaves and actual flowers in the kitchen right now. The flowers make far better tasting tea and the effect is definitely different from the leaves. As little as 1 teaspoon of flowers produces a very euphoric dreamy state of mind complete with closed eye visuals. 1 tsp of passionflower leaves hardly does anything. I need at least 3 teaspoons of the leaves to notice anything at all from the leaves. The flowers are many times stronger than the leaves, maybe 10 times stronger or more. But they don’t seem to be potent MAOIs whereas the leaves seem to be more potent MAOIs, but that’s just from my own personal experience. The flowers don’t have that MAOI feel to them. But I never tested their MAOI strength, so who knows.

SWIM says the flowers greatly interfere with the visual effects of bufotenine and the combination is just plain horrible. But he never tried it with anything else. SWIM tried passionflower leaves with LSD and passionflower leaves with psilocin many times, and the combined effect is very nice, very dreamy and relaxed. But SWIM never used enough for MAOI effects, so the LSD and psilocin potency was the same, but the overall feel of the trip changed dramatically and became more like ayahuasca (without the nausea).
 
it would take indeed an awfull lot of passionflower to make inactive DMT active, but to make substances that already are active when taken orally like LSD, mushrooms or mimosa cold water infusion more active, you don't need such a large amount. some people say that it makes these substances twice as strong and i don't know if that's a bit axagerated, but it's contribution to psychedelic experiences with tryptamine's is definately noticable. Of all the MAOI's i like caapi the most though, but it's also, where i live, the most expensive stuff and i find it's effects somewhat unpredictable as well.
When i take ayahuasca, the first few minutes i always feel this body load and just when i start to relax i often have to puke. Realy don't like that. On the other hand, when you take more ayahuasca you don't have to puke more as well. Another thing i like about ayahuasca is, when you take large amounts of it, it almost works instantaniously. I sometimes feel the effects already before i fully emptied the jar, coming on within second's just like with snorted DMT.
 
Thanks for the insights.
I have an aversion to puking too. That's one big reason why I love Psilocybin/shrooms. I have NEVER had a bad experience with psilocybin and I think it might be partly due to the low nausea factor.

I remember from over 30 years ago, when taking LSD that often it was infiltrated with strychnine, and that caused violent shaking along with the puking, and generally made it impossible to have a positive experience.
I wanted to die once, the pain from the strychnine was that bad. Not just Ego death, biodeath!
Same thing happened with Mexcal until I learned to clean my peyote buttons VERY WELL.

On the other hand, I have not heard of anyone getting truly poisoned by Ayahuasca. And I lived through the strychnine.

Whence the puking with Ayahuasca?
I have never heard of puking as a side effect of Passion Flower.
What causes the puking? Mimosa or the MAOI (caapi/rue)?
 
ok this all is getting a bit off topic but I feel I have to respond to some comments..

FelixsMom said:
when taking LSD that often it was infiltrated with strychnine
Click to expand...

strychnine in lsd is a myth AFAIK.. check this link out for example


FelixsMom said:
Whence the puking with Ayahuasca?
I have never heard of puking as a side effect of Passion Flower.
What causes the puking? Mimosa or the MAOI (caapi/rue)?
Click to expand...

Puking is a result of many things.. It is caused by the plants themselves and the reaction of the stomach to them. In special, the tannins in the plants cause this (mimosa for example contains loads of tannins). In fact, all of the plants you mentioned (caapi, rue AND mimosa) are known for causing people to vomit).

Puking is also caused by serotonin signaling in the guts, so this is due to the pharmacological action of the substances.. (and this can possibly be diminished by ginger as I suggest below)

Lastly, specially in the indigenous context, puking is seen as a necessary part of the experience for some people, like a kind of cleansing. Some people puke, others have diarrhea, others have runny noses, etc.. I have observed that there is indeed a certain pattern in how people make this cleansing. It is not a rule but I´ve been noticing that people that eat bad have a much bigger chance of having diarrhea as part of their cleansing.

I had also aversion to vomiting, but after participating in indigenous rituals, I see it in a totally different way.

In any case, if you really really want to diminish the chance of vomiting, there´s some things you should do:

1- eat fresh, healthy and light for a couple of days before the experience, and stay at least a couple of hours without eating before ingesting anything
2- You can make the ´egg white tek´ for removing tannins.. You can do this for mimosa and also for caapi. Run a search here on the forum and you´ll find how to..
3-In the case of rue, dont chew/eat the seeds. Do an acidified water acqueous extract of the grinded seeds and drink this with honey.
4- Make yourself some ginger tea before taking the maois/mimosa/ayahuasca/whatever .. Ginger is known for being antihemetic, it prevents or at least reduces nausea and vomiting.
 
I've only just now read the article about the Strychnine Myth. I guess your explanation covers all.
There are good reasons for the puking and other toxic effects (shaking, etc.) but no STRYCHNINE. That's grest to know - and this also goes for CACTI? HMMM! and HUMPH!?

I have copy/pasted a paragraph here from the source you cited (Erowid/Alexander T. Shulgin) for anyone else who was unaware of this:

"...the myth that occasionally surfaces, that strychnine occurs in the white tufts of peyote. This is equally fraudulent -- it has never been reported in that cactus or any other cactus."
Furthermore, it should probably be spelled out that strychnine is not needed to bond LSD to blotter paper, nor is strychnine a breakdown product of LSD. these are probably the two most commonly repeated gross misconceptions."

FelixsMom said:
when taking LSD that often it was infiltrated with strychnine
Click to expand...

strychnine in lsd is a myth AFAIK.. check this link out for example
 
What’s so bad about strychnine? It’s only toxic if you take too much of it. It’s a nice stimulant otherwise.

LSD can have mild strychnine-like effects and sometimes this is increased because of the presence of impurities and breakdown products in the final product. LSD is a lysergic acid derivative just like LSA. LSA can also have strychnine-like side effects.

Also, there’s NO SUCH THING AS PURE LSD. It doesn’t exist. You can have nearly pure LSD, but not 100% pure LSD. It’s impossible. As soon as the LSD is made it begins to break down. Also, right after synthesizing it, it’s a mix of compounds, and it needs to be purified and that step is extremely difficult and many chemists do a sloppy job of it and so most of the LSD that hits the market is dirty from poor synthesis.

LSD is not simple to make. It requires a lot of advanced chemistry that is tedious and with little room for mistakes.

SWIM has bought other drugs sold as “LSD” many times. These days you’ll often get things like DOM, DOI, DOB, 5-MeO-AMT, etc., being sold as “LSD”. Actually LSD production is down dramatically in the recent years. The other drugs are typically easier to make and not as illegal in most countries as LSD is, and because most people don’t know what real LSD is like, most people are easily fooled by the dealers. SWIM stopped buying LSD after a while. He kept getting other drugs sold as “LSD” and got tired of it. Once, SWIM got DOM sold as “LSD” and tripped for 3 days straight and couldn’t sleep during the entire ordeal. It was horrible. Another time, SWIM got something that made him itch all over, made his mouth dry, had no visuals, and again he couldn’t sleep for 3 days. That type of thing kept happening over and over and SWIM was so disappointed. Real LSD is just no longer available anywhere in SWIM’s area. All of the local LSD labs were shut down and the chemists are still in prison.

The only drug out there that is like real true LSD (lysergic acid diethylamide) is LSH (lysergic acid hydroxyethylamide). If you want to know what real LSD is like, try a low dose of LSH, it’s almost identical. The inventor of LSD himself said that LSH is the closest thing to LSD that is known in both effects and chemical structure. Low doses of LSH and LSD are practically indistinguishable from each other. But at high doses, LSH starts causing side effects and becomes unpleasant.
 
Yeah, any poison can be enjoyable with small doses, just as any safer poison(alcohol) can be dangerous at high doses. As for LSH, is there any plant that has high LSH content? Morning Glory has it but it seems synthesizing it would be more practical than attempting to isolate it.
 
drainlife20 said:
Yeah, any poison can be enjoyable with small doses, just as any safer poison(alcohol) can be dangerous at high doses. As for LSH, is there any plant that has high LSH content? Morning Glory has it but it seems synthesizing it would be more practical than attempting to isolate it.
Click to expand...

You can make it by mixing LSA with acetaldehyde. Good sources for acetaldehyde are peppermint tea or sherry wine.

You can dissolve a few crushed HBWR seeds in freshly made peppermint tea. The acetaldehyde in the tea will combine with the LSA in the seeds to produce LSH. SWIM has done that many times. It works beautifully. But it’s better to use pure LSA extracted from the seeds to avoid a lot of the side effects of the seeds.
 
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