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dissociatives comparision thread

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polytrip said:
Wikipedia.
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You can't simply use Wikipedia as a source, it is full of errors. In this example you also made an error, as Wikipedia doesn't state that ketamine use results in brain damage. It does state that chronic use may result in cognitive impairments, but also "suggests that occasional use of ketamine does not lead to prolonged harm and that any damage that might occur may be reversible when ketamine use is stopped". Next to everything causes brain damage if used in too large dosages and/or too often. Also note that temporarily cognitive impairments is not the same thing as actual brain damage. Then it CAN NOT be seen as proven that ketamine causes brain damage. The Wikipedia article also provides a link to this Erowid article that should be taken into account.
 
Good Post EG!:)

The issue of dissociatives and 'brain damage' has produced conflicting results which have not been consistently reproduced.The famous 'Olney Lesions' were found in rats brains when analysed histopathologically but its rash to extrapolate between species as there exist fundamental differences between say the brain tissue of humans and rats not least of which is different rates of metabolic activity in cerebral neurones in different anatomical locations.

Brain damage is an emotive term and implies, to the layman, clear structural changes, but brains can be 'damaged' at a functional level without necessarily being able to find clear pathological correlates. I doubt many would argue that a DXM casualty appears 'brain damaged' but this could simply be functional as opposed to structural (but the possibility remains that with the correct imaging, some abnormalities could be found when compared to the 'normal' brain-I refer to modalities such as PET, SPECT or fMRI).

Of the NMDA antagonists, IME, DXM certainly feels toxic at the 10mg/kg dose and upwards, and the thought of doing this weekly or more often feels like it ought to cause some structural brain 'damage'.:shock:
 
Evening Glory said:
polytrip said:
Wikipedia.
Click to expand...
You can't simply use Wikipedia as a source, it is full of errors. In this example you also made an error, as Wikipedia doesn't state that ketamine use results in brain damage. It does state that chronic use may result in cognitive impairments, but also "suggests that occasional use of ketamine does not lead to prolonged harm and that any damage that might occur may be reversible when ketamine use is stopped". Next to everything causes brain damage if used in too large dosages and/or too often. Also note that temporarily cognitive impairments is not the same thing as actual brain damage. Then it CAN NOT be seen as proven that ketamine causes brain damage. The Wikipedia article also provides a link to this Erowid article that should be taken into account.
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Yeah, you're right. But i'm one of those 'better safe than sorry' dudes, so if a drug produces brain damage in rats or mais, that is a reason for me to stay away from it. And i think it's just a good advice to be carefull with it. More carefull than with cannabis or DMT.
 
polytrip said:
Yeah, you're right. But i'm one of those 'better safe than sorry' dudes, so if a drug produces brain damage in rats or mais, that is a reason for me to stay away from it. And i think it's just a good advice to be carefull with it. More carefull than with cannabis or DMT.
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Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly on the 'better safe than sorry' part! This is a mindset we all should have when experimenting with any and all substances. With the case of ketamine, however, there's no real scientific proof of any brain damage, just indications that chronic use may cause cognitive impairments, likely only temporarily. Actually ketamine used modestly seems to have the exact opposite effects, among other things it seems to lead to growth of synapses, see this recent article as an example.

As a matter of fact ketamine and its relatives have great potential as healing medicines for a broad spectrum of conditions, if used correctly. You may have heard about the cases where a deep ketamine experience reboots the body, so to speak, in order to fix all sorts of problems including phantom limbs and even mental problems. I know a person with a history of very bad psychological problems that after such an experience now have a functional life and a happy smile on his face. I'm not saying this couldn't be done in other ways (iboga, ayahuasca, mushrooms, talk therapy, etc.), but I'm saying ketamine also seems to work, at least in some cases.
 
Personally i fell that mxe helped kick my nikotine habit which consisted of me rolling joints with cannabis and tobacco.

Doing a sesion with mxe helped me get over the urge to use tobacco in my joints.

But since mxe seems to be quite addictive itself i think you really need to have set dates to use it since impulsive use easily get´s habitual.

something like every 2-3months seems to be a good space between joueneys, although even still i can get cravings for it.
 
Tried DXM once, not a huge dose, about 400mg. This translates to about 7mg/kg for me. It caused me to be violently sick and itch all over. Not a pleasant experience.

Ketamine is a favourite of mine because in low doses it can be quite good for social, it is definately very funny to watch others who are on it. At higher doses extreme dissociation can occur, aka the infamous K-hole. I have had an experience involving multiple dimensions, and I was a gateway or portal between the two dimensions. I believed that one of my friends had gotten lost in the other dimension, so I had to keep the portal 'open' so that he would not be lost. Very strange indeed. At the time it seemed so real, but afterwards my memory of the experience became foggy, like a the memory of dream after one wakes up.
 
SWIM finds that while Ketamine, N20 & MXE are certainly potentially addicting... DXM, Amanita, and Iboga are almost anti-addictive.

I don't know anyone who wanted to do another 3rd plateau dose the day after doing one.

[Of course some people will naturally be more susceptible to addictive behaivior than others]

People talking about 10mg/kg doses of DXM (or more) are needlessly over shooting the 3rd plateau dose. 7.5mg/kg are all that is needed, and there is no subjective impovement or intensification until you get to the 4th plateau at 15mg/kg. Additionally, the 4th plateau is unnecesary as far as SWIM can tell... counter productive even. 3rd is plenty deep and going deeper only makes it impossible to remember what happened.

DXM is far and away the most studied of all the dissos in general (though not as a recreational drug per se). It is also the most widely taken. 80% of people in the western world have taken DXM at some point in their life. Obviously, this is at medicinal doses for coughing... but it can become psychoactive at only a marginal amount more than this dose. Combine this with fever dreams....

Until recently they even gave DXM to infants. This is not a good idea IMO, but it shows the level of non-toxicity that it has demonstrated. There is some reason why DXM is not scheduled in any country despite being a stronger hallucinogen than LSD.

No studies have indicated any brain damage with any of the dissos without extremely heavy or regular usage. Even PCP requires a significant amount of abuse to get there. It seems well established that one can use a disso from time to time and suffer no cognitive impairment whatsoever. With DXM Hbr, it is likely you would start to experience symptoms of Bromism before you actually gave yourself any permanent brain damage. Furthermore it is relatively easy to combine dissos with neuroprotectants. Even GABA works well for this purpose.

Please don't take any of this as any kind of endorsement or encouragement to use dissos. Like anything else, you need to do your own research, and decide if you feel you would benefit from moderate application.

Like other posters have mentioned, though, dissos go rather well with DMT. Almost too well. There is little or no anxiety even for people who generally have hardcore pre-flight anxiety, and there can be the feeling that one wants to go back and keep smoalking moar when normally one hit would be enough. Be careful people.

Last thing I will say before my harm reduction and info sheet on rational DXM use goes up... water can cure the itches and heat flashes almost instantly. Nausea or diahrrhea can be cured with ginger, fennel or mint tea. And you HAVE to DXM or MXE in the total darkness to get the full effect. Even a single LED can blow it.

MXE is too new to endorse it or feel comfortable talking about it much. Also it is still discouraged here in the Nexus. SWIM can only say that it may be a very good replacement for casual K or 2nd plateau DXM experiences. We have no idea what it does to people long term, though. The small doses needed bode well toxicologically, but one never knows. SWIM feels that even if proven safe, it will not replace DXM for 3rd plateau level journeys as it is a lot more superficial and flows by so fast that one can not really work deeply with any of what it shows you. It seems markedly less spiritual. It does have a very nice clarity and enhanced cognition to it though.
 
Wow what a fantastic thread! Its answered a lot of questions I had regarding dissos. I just have one question about how MXE compares to ketamine in terms of effects? I have had some monumental spiritual experiences with ketamine and it has taught me a great deal, and I wonder if MXE might have similar implications. Anyone who has had a good deal of experience with both care to elaborate? Though I agree that it being a research chemical its use should not be endorsed in any way.
 
Dr Psychonaut said:
Wow what a fantastic thread! Its answered a lot of questions I had regarding dissos. I just have one question about how MXE compares to ketamine in terms of effects? I have had some monumental spiritual experiences with ketamine and it has taught me a great deal, and I wonder if MXE might have similar implications. Anyone who has had a good deal of experience with both care to elaborate? Though I agree that it being a research chemical its use should not be endorsed in any way.
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Mainly duration & best ROA... But also personality and style.

MXE is long acting, clear minded, fast-paced visually, and somewhat reddish.

Ket is short acting, foggier by far, slower and deeper visually, and kinda greenish.

Obviously words don't do it justice. MXE is even more anti-depressive then Dex. Genuinely mood altering and uplifting... just not as spiritual somehow.

[This info is totally subjective, and not to be taken as an encouragement. People need to do a LOT more research on these substances than just read a few forum posts before deciding to introduce anything into their bodies.]
 
personally i feel mxe is yellow and ket is blue :p

The coolset thing happened to me when i did some mxe and changa, Sometimes my dmt trips can start out with a green backround with a spinning cube but with mxe in my system it turned to a very sharp purple and the cube became some kind of hypercube morphing into a spaceship.


Ketamine and dmt was very powerful and spiritual, with a dark tone with heavy magic.


Also doing mxe and lsd with some changa at the afterglow presents a very clear morphing shapes that is to advanced to even try to explain.
 
SHroomtroll said:
personally i feel mxe is yellow and ket is blue :p
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I can see that. Let's say reddish yellow and greenish blue.

SHroomtroll said:
The coolset thing happened to me when i did some mxe and changa, Sometimes my dmt trips can start out with a green backround with a spinning cube but with mxe in my system it turned to a very sharp purple and the cube became some kind of hypercube morphing into a spaceship.


Ketamine and dmt was very powerful and spiritual, with a dark tone with heavy magic.


Also doing mxe and lsd with some changa at the afterglow presents a very clear morphing shapes that is to advanced to even try to explain.
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I can dig that. SWIM thinks highly of disso/dmt combos. (all proper safety concerns and respect for the substances observed of course)

[btw the DXM thread is up now in case you wanna check it out. ]
 
I read a trip rapport of a guy who combined 40mg of mxe with a dose of kava extract, the interaction was weird but seemed safe.

They really enhanced each other to the point that the 40mg of mxe produced some hole state effects such as the "swollen body" sensation and flying through tunnels, also the trip was more spirutual than a normal mxe trip would be.

Be careful though it seemed to hit him alot harder than expected and he was worried at times since it was a preety heavy high.
 
I once worked up my usage of dxm to a climax of 3000mg. Never did it again, but didn't become.retarded...but then again, I have been fooled before.
 
SpireCatalyst said:
I once worked up my usage of dxm to a climax of 3000mg. Never did it again, but didn't become.retarded...but then again, I have been fooled before.
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My god man!

Unless you weigh 200kg, I can not imagine that such a dose would have any use whatsoever.

Did you experience anything that could make such a mind-boggling consumption worthwhile? How was that experience any different or better than a normal 3rd plateau?

SWIM finds that even the 4th plateau is mostly a waste of material as it mostly just moves the pitch black experience into lighter environments without increasing it overly... and it is nice to be able to flip on the light and function half-way decently if need be.
 
Anyone tried 3meo-pce yet?

Seems similar to mxe but more potent by weight.

I was reading up on the 3meo and 4meo pcp variations but the really long high and impurities in the 4meo version put me off bigtime.
 
Salvia is a very interesting dissociative indeed. The itching definitely sucks, but I find I don't feel it when launching from cannabis. It definitely has a "tearing/ripping" quality of experience. Very alien indeed.

DXM is a valuable tool IME. I have only 2nd plateaued so far, but i have gained a lot from those experiences. I personally think it is enhanced by other substances (tobacco, salvia, cannabis) exponentially. Also, credit to HF, but the darkness is an absolute must. As my one friend said, being in the dark is "so much more bang for your buck" :lol:

I recently tried nitrous while pretty faded on cannabis. Looked through some light defractor glasses at my christmas tree... and I was completely blown away. Intense rushing euphoria into a christmas wonderland of spinny twirly lights, with audio hallucinations that sounded like dubstep seeping into my conscience.It was very intense and euphoric.... for about a couple minutes. Which actually is probably all that i could handle of it. The afterglow was very soft and soothing.

I find disso's to be a kind of combination/midway-point between opiates and psychedelics. Some land more on one side than the other, but all have qualities of both.
 
tried a few lines of ketamine on an acid comedown yesterday, had like a 3hour khole from less than 100mg of it...

The synergy of tryptamines and dissios is amazing..

Need to post a better post my head get´s alright lol
 
A few notes from my latest dissio adventueres...

N20: I tried this for the first time about a month ago, sure ive done n20 before but i havent done it like it´s supposed to be done...

Me and my gf did some shiva blotter and brought forth the cream whipper for a test run, once i got the tek down where i try to minimize my air supply and keep as much n20 as possible down it was a very powerful experience!!!

the dissociation was very strong and reminded me of salvia where it´s like you die and are reborn in a state of total confusion for a few secs, and the sound distortions was out of this world.

A very nice experience just to bad it get´s so addictive while you are on it, i think i did about 20hits in one night which felt pretty cracky indeed.


Mxe/dmt again: so we did a heavy dose of mxe, about 70mg i would guess.

Watched alice in wonderland which was funky...

after most of the effects had worn of i made a big changa spliff, the effects were weird, no dmt visuals but it took me down to a hole state sort of...

I smoalked moar! alot more, like 200mg changa in one hit... this was very strong but weird, i didnt blast of at all, but my room did.

It was like everything in my room changed dimensions very fast, both me and my gf changed shapes a few times per sec, we were aliens, humans, dogs and fishes...

This lasted for what felt was a long time and i havent smoked any dmt since, not that it was a bad experience but i need to integrate it for a while.
 
On my last 'huasca journey, I did a few nitrous hits from a balloon while peaking. The synergy was out of this word! I felt like there I was a cell in the phase of metaphase, and closed sea anenomes were lined up on my equator. When the opened, a sun was born, and with it, a new universe. Very special. The nitrous definitely lasted quite a bit longer than it would have lasted on its own, so kudos to that.

Worth noting that I did not feel any compulsion to use it again during the experience. One was enough for me. :d
 
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