Freedom & Modern Systems of Control

[blig-blug]

It's possible to think about the problems humanity is facing and not have many hopes without being emotionally consumed by it, @ShadedSelf . I don't see ignoring it because you can't control it as being too different from not ignoring it and being emotionally crushed.

 

[Sakkadelic]

Yes you can be optimistic, you can think of what you can do and how you can improve yourself and improve the immediate community around you. But you can't isolate yourself from what is happening elsewhere and the greater suffering of people everywhere, and the grim future apparent ahead. Well of course you can, especially if you're living in a western country and you're financially comfortable, it's so easy to ignore what is going on and filter out any information of uncomfortable realities. That is not possible if those uncomfortable realities are yours. Isolating oneself would give an incomplete view of reality and would distance you and make you unable to relate to the majority of the others, I would go as far to say it makes you unhumane.

I believe when we die our suffering becomes that of the world and the suffering of the world becomes ours.

I find it hard to believe that change will come from within. Either a major tragedy will force us to change or jesus will return.

 

[Jamie01]

One observation I have made after 12-13 years working in trades and labor is that a large subset of the owner class etc would probly opt for full slavery if it was still socially acceptable.

I know it sounds a bit much but I have seen too many times workers totally abused…not paid for overtime asked to work through brakes…I’ve seen people fall apart crying because my boss tried to push them out of the company when they left for a week after a parent suddenly died. I recently watched a coworker basically fight for her job over a few missed days due to Crohn’s disease. Now these same people are replacing all the employees with ultra cheap imported labor..

Lululemon just told the provincial gov they are leaving the province if they aren’t allowed to violate laws and bring in more foreign employees they will move the business. They got away with it. Rich billionaires gotta make a living too. Hell the guy made a killing, took his cash and figured he’d start a massive psilocybin company.

I see new apartments going up we get contracts on. One recent one was built as low income affordable condos…then I see it’s on TV because the developers got low interest loans then illegally sold the units to people with too many assets and to this day the building has air bnb’s in it owned by people who don’t live there. They come out asking me tourist questions while homeless people stumble around sleeping in garbage outside the housing the gov funded for poor people.

I could go on and on and on and on and you know what? The greedy people are winning.

Most people are good awesome people. Most people are not out for only themselves with absolutely disregard for anyone else. Most people aren’t out seeking all that money and power. It’s a small subset of I dunno what the right term is…narcissistic psychopaths?…that seem to have gained enough control.

I don’t want to be a slave forever. I’m tired of putting in 55 hours a week of my own time while dealing with health issues… il never be able to own a home. Maybe never retire. I have to constantly worry about my car falling apart. I do this all for a kid that’s 32 and a loaded millionaire spending his all daddies money. Society is more and more like a monopoly board and you gotta buy your way in.

I’m sure a lot of people are just sick and tired of being treated like freakin slaves.

If something huge does not give soon society will fall apart. It’s just so bad here in any PNW city. Everyone is struggling to just get by.

 

[Tumupasa]

I do agree that a State needs those tools. I don't support it, though.

The other day, I had exactly the same conversation with a friend, she was defending those tools, making rightfully the point that without them, everything would be chaos, and I agreed on this point, but my point was that it's not a reason for supporting them, everything became so complicated and sophisticated... I believe this system is an old machine, at this point fixing it make it look more absurd.

I don't see politics as a solution to anything, because there is a whole structure behind it that needs to change first.

Yes, this is the first step, we have to globally figure out that politics don't have the freedom to find solutions, simply because the way this system is now working, where lobbies and pyramidal structures (like Blackrock) have the real power.

I know it makes sense to ignore what we cannot control. But it feels like part of my job in this life is to embrace and appreciate as much of the human experience as possible. That means looking in all the dark corners as well as enjoying the sunshine.

I agree, It's easier to focus on good things, but if I make an analogy with an ayahuasca ceremony, it will be constructive if I accept that sometimes there are dark stuffs to deal with, and just skipping them won't be of any help.
For sure, there are lots of things I can't change myself, but it's important for me to be aware they exist and don't support them.

 

[northape]

You sound really pessimistic, and you seem to really like to focus on what you cant do anything about.
Cant change the law, cant direct my focus, cant change the environment, cant face the fear. Im limited, caged. Doomed.
Which is probably true, at least to some degree, not the doomed part anyways.
There is a whole lot you cant do, and I wont even tell you to focus on what you can do because its too New-Agey, too optimistic.
Does that sound about right?

That's how it looks from your perspective. You need to live my life first to understand it.
It's a miracle that I'm still alive, and yes, my outlook is quite pessimistic. I know myself well and what works for me.
Living in a fairy tale of my own creation can't happen here, sorry. I'm quite allergic to brainwashing at this point, even if it's a good kind.

 

[Tripolation]

“To be GOVERNED is to be watched, inspected, spied upon, directed, law-driven, numbered, regulated, enrolled, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, checked, estimated, valued, censured, commanded, by creatures who have neither the right nor the wisdom nor the virtue to do so. To be GOVERNED is to be at every operation, at every transaction noted, registered, counted, taxed, stamped, measured, numbered, assessed, licensed, authorized, admonished, prevented, forbidden, reformed, corrected, punished. It is, under pretext of public utility, and in the name of the general interest, to be place under contribution, drilled, fleeced, exploited, monopolized, extorted from, squeezed, hoaxed, robbed; then, at the slightest resistance, the first word of complaint, to be repressed, fined, vilified, harassed, hunted down, abused, clubbed, disarmed, bound, choked, imprisoned, judged, condemned, shot, deported, sacrificed, sold, betrayed; and to crown all, mocked, ridiculed, derided, outraged, dishonored. That is government; that is its justice; that is its morality."
-Pierre-Joseph Proudhon

 

[Tumupasa]

“To be GOVERNED is to be watched, inspected, spied upon, directed, law-driven, numbered, regulated, enrolled, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, checked, estimated, valued, censured, commanded, by creatures who have neither the right nor the wisdom nor the virtue to do so. To be GOVERNED is to be at every operation, at every transaction noted, registered, counted, taxed, stamped, measured, numbered, assessed, licensed, authorized, admonished, prevented, forbidden, reformed, corrected, punished. It is, under pretext of public utility, and in the name of the general interest, to be place under contribution, drilled, fleeced, exploited, monopolized, extorted from, squeezed, hoaxed, robbed; then, at the slightest resistance, the first word of complaint, to be repressed, fined, vilified, harassed, hunted down, abused, clubbed, disarmed, bound, choked, imprisoned, judged, condemned, shot, deported, sacrificed, sold, betrayed; and to crown all, mocked, ridiculed, derided, outraged, dishonored. That is government; that is its justice; that is its morality."
-Pierre-Joseph Proudhon

Wow!

 

[northape]

From my little view point, there some of us that cannot endure the bubble of happiness method. I know it makes sense to ignore what we cannot control. But it feels like part of my job in this life is to embrace and appreciate as much of the human experience as possible. That means looking in all the dark corners as well as enjoying the sunshine.

That's my view too, and it's how I work with my medicine. Many would call most of my ceremonies a bad trip. I like to go deep and look my darkness in the face.

Absolute majority of people believe that everything must be regulated or controlled by state. This is even more pronounced between political intelectuals.

Here in Scandinavia, you're expected to be like everyone else: own a house, a boat, and an RV, cut your grass, and have absolute trust in the state.
If you stray even a little, you'll immediately become an outsider.

you can't isolate yourself from what is happening elsewhere and the greater suffering of people everywhere, and the grim future apparent ahead

No, you can't. This winter, I had a number of experiences where I felt the souls of those killed in wars. The whole planet is crying out, but people are watching the Kardashians and arguing about how many genders there are.

I’m sure a lot of people are just sick and tired of being treated like freakin slaves.

We are slaves. Slav and slave have the same root, by the way. Immigrants in the EU are slaves. I have very little chance of getting out of the rut. My life was pre-planned for me the moment I moved to Europe. If I had known what was happening here, I would rather stay poor in my dysfunctional ex-Soviet country.

 

[Jamie01]

At this point we need a government…we just need a gov who is not bought out…I just want living wages and affordable housing. A family Dr would be nice.

Without a government people are even more screwed. We need ways to keep the ultra rich in check and hold them accountable. It’s a fine line.

 

[northape]

At this point we need a government…we just need a gov who is not bought out…I just want living wages and affordable housing. A family Dr would be nice.
Without a government people are even more screwed. We need ways to keep the ultra rich in check and hold them accountable. It’s a fine line.

From my limited understanding, it all went south sometime in the '70s in the West.
Ex-USSR countries never got any support or help to become democracies; they were just a cake waiting to be cut.
The situation right now is so hopeless that I can't even come up with a solution apart from sci-fi scenarios

 

[Jamie01]

I also think that occupy changed things and the ultra rich Wall Street elites figured they better get on the pc train and pit everyone against each other to sabotage the left…

But I’m rather paranoid.

 

[Transform]

“To be GOVERNED is to be watched, inspected, spied upon, directed, law-driven, numbered, regulated, enrolled, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, checked, estimated, valued, censured, commanded, by creatures who have neither the right nor the wisdom nor the virtue to do so. To be GOVERNED is to be at every operation, at every transaction noted, registered, counted, taxed, stamped, measured, numbered, assessed, licensed, authorized, admonished, prevented, forbidden, reformed, corrected, punished. It is, under pretext of public utility, and in the name of the general interest, to be place under contribution, drilled, fleeced, exploited, monopolized, extorted from, squeezed, hoaxed, robbed; then, at the slightest resistance, the first word of complaint, to be repressed, fined, vilified, harassed, hunted down, abused, clubbed, disarmed, bound, choked, imprisoned, judged, condemned, shot, deported, sacrificed, sold, betrayed; and to crown all, mocked, ridiculed, derided, outraged, dishonored. That is government; that is its justice; that is its morality."
-Pierre-Joseph Proudhon

An absolute classic - I keep a copy on my desktop

 

[Transform]

Further recommended reading: "The Shock Doctrine" by Naomi Klein. It may have come out a couple of decades ago, but it still goes a long way towards explaining a lot of what's going on now.

From my limited understanding, it all went south sometime in the '70s in the West.
Ex-USSR countries never got any support or help to become democracies; they were just a cake waiting to be cut.
The situation right now is so hopeless that I can't even come up with a solution apart from sci-fi scenarios

Klein explains very well some circumstances behind the post-Soviet carve-up.

 

[northape]

Further recommended reading: "The Shock Doctrine" by Naomi Klein. It may have come out a couple of decades ago, but it still goes a long way towards explaining a lot of what's going on now.
Klein explains very well some circumstances behind the post-Soviet carve-up.

I lived through the '90s in Belarus and saw it all myself. My mom's life savings became worthless overnight, while people in the know privatized everything and bought up real estate. It was a time of criminals, the mafia, and $3/month wages.

As a teenager, I enjoyed my bubble gum and movies from all over the world on TV. Never again in modern history would someone be exposed to so much culture.
I had a very freedom-loving, open outlook on the world. Ideas about equality or race never came up because we saw ourselves as humanity striving for the stars.
The West put me back on the ground...

 

[blig-blug]

The best analysis and critique of what's going on that I've read is Ellul's "The Technological Society" (a very poorly translated title, the original is "La technique o l'enjeu du siecle"). The author is honest enough to not pretend he has everything figured out and not propose any solution to what he finds. I recommend it very much to anyone who hasn't read it. You will find a very different critique of technique and our current situation than the usual ones.

 

[Jamie01]

I lived through the '90s in Belarus and saw it all myself. My mom's life savings became worthless overnight, while people in the know privatized everything and bought up real estate. It was a time of criminals, the mafia, and $3/month wages.

As a teenager, I enjoyed my bubble gum and movies from all over the world on TV. Never again in modern history would someone be exposed to so much culture.
I had a very freedom-loving, open outlook on the world. Ideas about equality or race never came up because we saw ourselves as humanity striving for the stars.
The West put me back on the ground...

Even in Canada that’s more how I remember the feel of the 90s, minus the poverty etc.

Everything was about recycling, repairing the ozone…people were mostly already accepting of homosexuality etc. The city I grew up in was already entirely multi-cultural… half my block was Indian or Chinese. Signs were in multiple languages. People mostly hated racism and sexism etc…

People with normal jobs could save up for a few years and get a mortgage just like that, have kids and retire someday. Health care was free, and more importantly…accessible. You just walked in and waited 30 minutes.

Now everyone is working around the clock, to rent everything forever. There’s little hope of retirement for a lot of people. Everyone thinks everyone else is racist or sexist or homophobic…or appropriating everything…now if you need to go to a clinic you can show up at 4am and wait in line until they open hours later and hope to god your far enough up that line to make it lol… if you need a specialist or MRI it’s okay it’s like 9-10 months wait…

When I talk to people half my age it’s like we are from totally different times. They don’t realize how egalitarian parts of the 90s were compared to the social climate now. Lol

 

[northape]

Even in Canada that’s more how I remember the feel of the 90s, minus the poverty etc.

I get the idea. I used to read a lot of sci-fi novels back then, both Soviet and Western. The internet was a wonder.
I'll never forget the first time I chatted with a girl from Chile. I wanted to visit different countries and see how people lived.
There was so much hope for the future. Where did it all go?
Scandinavia gave me the first taste of what it's like to be a 3rd rate human and a slave.
We have free healthcare here, but it's similar to what you describe
It's hard to relate to the locals my age; the new generation could very well be from another planet.
I still have dreams, but now they're about living alone somewhere in the Andes

Edit: What I mean is that the things I learned from books and films were very far from the West I encountered. Maybe if I moved to the US or Canada it would be different, but from your post, it sounds about the same. The amount of immigration I saw in the first 10 years is insane: millions of people from the Middle East and Africa moved here. Many of them had no education; some were simply criminals. I lived in ghetto-like immigrant parts of the city for years, and there was nothing fun about it. My view of Europe is very distorted because of these experiences.

 

[CosmicRiver]

I'm finding hope, after years of hopelessness. I have to be honest, I'm too young to have seen what you talk about, I was basically born in the current state of things, but I saw it getting worse.

When I talk to young people I see that most of them have no hope for the future either. In my hometown I see many teenagers addicted to alcohol and cocaine, sold to them by 40-year olds. Almost all of them drink every night, or smoke weed 24/7. Many of them gamble; at first it was sport bets, then slot machines, then virtual matches directly through their phone. Mental illness is deteriorating so much that parents find it hard to believe that their kids feel like that. Most of them don't even know or don't understand.
I see adults either burnt out or mindlessly diving into the tiktok world and buying new trends pretending to be teenagers again.

Only in the last 10 years I saw the surroundings of my hometown being covered by concrete to build new houses, shops, logistic hubs and data centers. And I found out that many of my favorite nature spots hid waste dumps, under the bushes or underground or in waterbeds. I learnt that chemicals and plastics leaked everywhere. And I can't even imagine the situation in other countries.

I saw the internet i was born with filling with ads, showoffs, envy and hate, and then AI content, and people changing their mindset accordingly, becoming either more insecure or meaner, wanting more things and consuming more.

And it's almost like I can see the evil forces operating behind all of this, and it feels like the whole world is now enslaved. And honestly I don't even think there is a masterplan behind this and this is the scariest part.

But after years of seeing all of this and feeling hopeless, I wanted to know how people could go by. I always liked how reporters would go visit many different realities and discover new worlds. So I did the same in my small reality and i found that most people care. I found out that there is almost no real communication left between people, so we really don't know each other.
I found out that even the ones who seem not to care about anything and mindlessly live according to the status quo, share the same fears and questions that we have. It's just that they see no other way because there is nothing else that the world has to offer, or prefer not to think about it, or get deceived by corporations and media. People who don't care are a very small minority.
I saw that there are people who already live in the world they want to build. They create safe spaces for people who have nowhere else to go, and places where people can be together and do something without being customers, without consuming. They don't preach about sustainability and inclusion without changing their lifestyle. They live by those ideals. And these people are a lot more than I could imagine.

But if evil people still run the world, and 90% of people's lives are shaped by the world that is being built for them, and sustain it through their consumer behavior. While in other countries people don't even have a choice, and even good people who live by ideals indirectly exploit them. How can there be hope for the world?
I too clearly saw the suffering of the Earth and her inhabitants, and saw their blood on my own hands and I cried many times for this. I'm not so naive to be unrealistically hopeful. But I think that being realistically hopeful is the state in which I can do the least possible amount of evil, because without hope I wouldn't even care anymore.

I always try to remember that evil forces don't rule the world, it's just humans. They don't act rationally, I don't even think they act for money since their economic power is practically infinite. So I guess that there is some irrational reason behind their behavior, and my guess is that it's fear. I can see it clearly in major political leaders. I can see it even in several corporation CEOs.
And to me it feels more and more that everything is collapsing under its own weight. I can see every behavior of these people as a reaction to the fear of being destroyed, not by the people but by the progression of the system they have created or maybe just contributed to expand.

And I can't see how and when the collapse will happen. But if we learn from now on how we can live outside of the mental framework that this system has created, and if we then try to build a new world with our own rules within and around us, as far as possible, like many people are already trying to do, and most importantly it we connect and reach out to other people, I think we can be hopeful. Because I think that most of the power that the current system of things has on people comes from the fact that they can't imagine anything different.

 

[fink]

Wow, that is the best brain noise I've seen in a long time Cosmic River. Not a single word that doesn't hit the nail on the head.

 

[northape]

And I can't see how and when the collapse will happen. But if we learn from now on how we can live outside of the mental framework that this system has created, and if we then try to build a new world with our own rules within and around us, as far as possible, like many people are already trying to do, and most importantly it we connect and reach out to other people, I think we can be hopeful. Because I think that most of the power that the current system of things has on people comes from the fact that they can't imagine anything different.

Thank you for your honest and practical answer. I agree with you and think that the future lies in small, tribe-like communities. We have no idea when the system is going to collapse, but it will. Finding yourself in a group of like-minded people who are ready to live from the earth would be a lot better than being alone in a post-apocalyptic city.

I often try to remind myself that birds and animals know nothing about countries, borders, or the economy. They just live on this planet and deal with us as they would with any other animal. Why create a virtual reality when we are already in one? Trying to shift my perspective away from the mainstream narrative helps.

I'm not in a position to seek my tribe right now, apart from my online interactions. However, it is my plan for the time when I am free to do so. I'll try to travel and find a little spot with open-minded people who appreciate life. If this endeavor brings no result, I'll find a nice natural spot to stay until my days are finished.

All the best to all of you. I hope you find your tribe and peace of mind