Freedom & Modern Systems of Control

[northape]

There are some villages in the Himalayas and Andes which can be accessed only a few months a year. However, it's a hard life at such a high elevation.
I don't know at this point. Mostly, I say all this stuff to have some hope for a better future, but it becomes very difficult to believe in a good outcome.
The Mars project is a total blasphemy. Musk would never survive such a journey, and we have no idea if anyone could with our current technology.
Cosmic radiation is a real thing. AI will never be a solution either. It's simply inert and needs human orders.
Everything comes down to our level of psychological development and morals. As many have pointed out, our lives are finite and a life without other people isn't human.

My idea of a good spot (high elevation, moderate climate, enough rain & sun):

 

[fink]

The true threat is not cold, or drought, or hunger. The true threat is other humans. As Dithy says, learning to use a bow and arrow is vital.

As soon as you catch some fish, you are a target. As soon as you have a woman for yourself, you are a target. The vulnerability of caring for children is off the scale.

People are animals, just a few square meals away from eating each other.

Warrior cultures are not to satisfy a desire for violence. They are to defend a life of peace. Traditionally, good hearted, peaceful men kill and die to defend women, children and hard earned resources.

I avoid violence at every level in our bubble wrapped society. I don't even kill mosquitos. I have killed to eat and regretfully, even just for sport in the past. I try not to today.

But in a collapse I would kill like a shadow in the night just on the assumption that you could become a threat. There is no other way to survive.

 

[northape]

The true threat is not cold, or drought, or hunger. The true threat is other humans. As Dithy says, learning to use a bow and arrow is vital.

I think you're right. Humans can be vicious creatures when they're in animal mode.
You only have to look at what our modern, domesticated human family does to see that.

But in a collapse I would kill like a shadow in the night just on the assumption that you could become a threat. There is no other way to survive.

I feel like I'd go ballistic with the right incentive, but who knows? You'd have to experience it firsthand to know for sure.
One thing is clear, though: after years of using plants, I could be pretty scary if I let loose. A lot of my domestication programming came undone.

 

[blig-blug]

I didn't have the impression that those authors presented primitive societies as utopias.

They assume that it will lead by itself to the end of violence, sex inequality and many other orthogonal issues that are found in (some) primitive societies. Much of this is implicit, when they trace the root of almost every human problem to civilization. I do agree it qualitatively changed many problems, but for many of them it's not the ultimate root at all. Maybe I'm misremembering what I've read, but I would like to see somewhere were Zerzan or Camatte (for example) admit that brutal, injust (to us) violence could very well be in the daily life of the kind of societies they envision.

There seem to be very strange, seemingly messed up primitive societies as well, keeping in mind that it is not our job to judge or correct self contained cultures

Yes, I agree. I think it's part of being human, we can mold our own social environment beyond our inherited instincts. This is very powerful and over time has gone completely off rails.

What I do hold against modern/industrial civilization, is that going on mass scale seems to destroy balance in all dimensions. It is difficult to put into words without writing a book or creating a presentation about it.

It's what I was trying to express too. And "quantity has a quality on its own"

 

[fink]

I think you're right. Humans can be vicious creatures when they're in animal mode.
You only have to look at what our modern, domesticated human family does to see that.

I feel like I'd go ballistic with the right incentive, but who knows? You'd have to experience it firsthand to know for sure.
One thing is clear, though: after years of using plants, I could be pretty scary if I let loose. A lot of my domestication programming came undone.

You would, I'm sure of it. You would become a cold, calculating predator that rarely let your good nature out on display.

There would still be space for kindness. But our judgment of when kindness is applicable would need a serious recalibration.

One moment of misguided compassion and now you are tied to a wooden stake, soaked in your own blood. Watching your loved ones being raped and tortured.

 

[rkba]

We see the world as we are inside.

What I do hold against modern/industrial civilization, is that going on mass scale seems to destroy balance in all dimensions. It is difficult to put into words without writing a book or creating a presentation about it.

Wetiko, it comes from the inside.

 

[Varallo]

I think this thread is a good example of what’s often referred to as a crisis of meaning, a sense that things are off, but no clear sense of what to do with that realization. There’s a mix here of justified frustration and understandable fear, paired with a kind of creeping paranoia about where all this is heading. It makes me think of my 100 year old grandmother who was a teen during ww2, she always tells me that even times of great tragedy and despair, people are helping each other out. The doomsday scenarios in this thread are very much a Hollywood movie, and have very little to do with reality.

Reality is, we have lower global poverty, longer life expectancy, better access to healthcare, information, etc. These things don’t make some current negative trends good, but the the idea that we’re just sliding linearly into dystopia is simply wrong.

It’s more likely that what we’re seeing isn’t the end, it’s just another messy iteration of a evolving system. Some things are getting better and some worse, yes, but not everything. And certainly not everywhere.

Retreating into the woods or an place far away from society waiting for collapse might feel comforting, but it doesn’t really solve the problem. If anything, it often reinforces the underlying disconnection. Last week I was in an beautiful Buddhist village far away in an forest on a mountain, and while there it was beautiful, I left the place with the feeling that it was one hair away from a cult that soon would close of and then follow the path of isolation.

I’d argue that meaning doesn’t come from escaping complexity, but from participating in it, through community, contribution, and critical engagement. Not passive observation or rejection.

So yes, things are difficult at times and getting more complicated and complex by the minute. But the idea that everything is worse doesn’t hold up empirically. What’s actually happening is that change is happening faster than most people can integrate it, socially, psychologically, existentially.

So going back to the opening post, my tips would be to:

Build up your social network (IRL) and create your tribe so to speak.
Build a solid financial foundation for yourself and loved ones.
Learn how to move yourself into an position of power and influence.
Be critical of one’s own thinking, don’t fall into paranoia or doomsday thinking.
Create meaning by actively pursuing your dreams and goals.
Enjoy the little things in life.

Take care

 

[blig-blug]

Reality is, we have lower global poverty, longer life expectancy, better access to healthcare,

Yes, I don't think anyone will disagree with that. The last significant drop in global poverty was due to China, by the way.

information

Well, that's were it goes back to the beginning of this thread. The trend has stopped there and actually been tending towards the opposite for quite a while now. Yes, some people are still able to ignore most of the noise, bypass technical restrictions, etc. It's getting harder and it's likely a matter of when. The impact of the open Web took most states by surprise and in the global context of the 90s it wasn't deemed a threat, now that mistake is being corrected.

An interesting, practical question: how long will we be able to keep using the Nexus anonymously?

I don't think collapse is a certainty, I think it's not unlikely that the system may be able to keep increasing it's ability to mold human beings into something able to live inhumanly. Maybe even being happy about it.

But the idea that everything is worse doesn’t hold up empirically.

Because it's not an empirical question to begin with. It can be approached empirically once you decide what you will consider good, bad and by what proportion. So yes, it won't hold up empirically if average material comfort and average health are the measure taken (at least for now). However, what kind of life and society should we aspire to is not an empirical question, and thus can't be empirically disproven.

 

[blig-blug]

I think this thread is a good example of what’s often referred to as a crisis of meaning, a sense that things are off, but no clear sense of what to do with that realization.

If this were the only crisis right now, it would already put into question the whole system. When given to choose between comfort and meaning people have consistently chosen the latter, even sacrificing one's own life. The more meaningless society has become, the easier it has been to use the human need for meaning for propaganda and control, see the 1930s as an example. Humans seem to value meaning above everything else.

It's no small thing that life is perceived as meaningless, and that really puts longer life expectancies into a different light. Consider the possibility that the current system may be unable to be perceived as meaningful to most people, which would make it unfit to be considered overall good or desirable, despite its many positive aspects.

 

[northape]

Build up your social network (IRL) and create your tribe so to speak.
Build a solid financial foundation for yourself and loved ones.
Learn how to move yourself into an position of power and influence.
Be critical of one’s own thinking, don’t fall into paranoia or doomsday thinking.
Create meaning by actively pursuing your dreams and goals.
Enjoy the little things in life.

I like your optimistic outlook on life and society. However, one thing always strikes me:
Your views seem to be heavily dependent on your social standing and access to resources, which very few people have.
Many of these suggestions would be nearly impossible for me. Even the willpower to do it depends on one's upbringing and life experience.
None of us have the same start or opportunities in life. I have a lot of baggage that limits my freedom, and that's the truth of the matter.

 

[northape]

@Varallo I actually agree with your reasoning about 98% of the time. It seems, that we approach everything from a very different angle, though.
I sense in you a healthy individual with a fine life who's searching for higher truths (like an alchemist).
My story is different. I came to plants very sick and suicidal, from a broken family and a dysfunctional country.
Plants were a source of air for a drowning man. This translates into my worldview almost literally. Even healed traumas create a bias that's hard to get rid of.
I am so tired of society that I just want a quiet place with simple people to spend the rest of my life. I hope this gives you some context.

Thank you for your reply. It's like a light from a life I could never reach

 

[Varallo]

I like your optimistic outlook on life and society. However, one thing always strikes me:
Your views seem to be heavily dependent on your social standing and access to resources, which very few people have.
Many of these suggestions would be nearly impossible for me. Even the willpower to do it depends on one's upbringing and life experience.
None of us have the same start or opportunities in life. I have a lot of baggage that limits my freedom, and that's the truth of the matter.

Oh, I completely understand what you’re saying. Reading it back, I can see how it might come across differently from another perspective than I intended. You’re right that what I described isn’t possible for everyone. Still, I believe it’s one way to find your place in a complex and changing world.

These are things that work for me personally, that helped me and continue to help me in life. They also align with what I often see in my research, which focuses on how people, technology, societies, and cities adapt and succeed (or not) in complex conditions.

But I also see, again and again, the patterns of where things go wrong, and you’re right, it’s often linked to inequality, trauma, or lack of support. And leads to fragile social networks, fragile financial situations and the inability to manage when things go wrong. So this is where my thoughts come from.

I really hope that I didn’t offend you or anyone else by my optimism.

 

[blig-blug]

An optimist???? In my doomer thread???

 

[northape]

I really hope that I didn’t offend you or anyone else by my optimism.

Your optimism is a light that shines from your heart. The life you live is your well-earned karma, imo.
I'll cheer for people like you every day of the week - people who work on these problems from the inside and have the willpower to do so.

It's just unreachable for some. For years, I tried to reach a place similar to where you are, but it was always out of reach.
Sometimes, the baggage is just too heavy, and one has no idea how to put it down. It sits on your head for life.
Given slightly different circumstances, I would most likely have worked on and reacted to these issues as you do.

Peace and much Love to you

 

[Jamie01]

No desire to leave society completely. I just enjoy being in a smaller town where at least there is a community to engage with that isn’t so huge it becomes meaningless like living in the city felt.

I still want the tax funded skatepark and rec centre, the surf related facilities in parking lots etc. you need those things to build communities…I don’t want all that gone and I don’t plan to move away. I like my community but a lot of what makes it nice here is also at risk due to capitalist interests.

 

[dithyramb]

I agree with @blig-blug, the crisis can be framed as foremost of meaning.

Also, empirically speaking seems not possible also because of the unknowns in this topic. You can say empirically that this system is unsustainable because of the depletion of resources and extreme rate of ecological destruction (being in the midst of the 5th mass extinction, as one little example). But one could say that human civilization will adapt to all the changes, that we cannot know the outcome of the current process, that this is just another messy iteration in the development of humanity. But that is a statement/view of faith. When it comes to predicting complex systems, we all operate from our worldviews, from faith.

I believe a lot of human systems are bound to collapse but I am not focussed on a doomsday. I just go through life doing what is right for me, end of story. What will happen will happen. I repeat, our inner state is of vital importance and determines the quality of our lives as well as how we see the world.

Speaking of doomsday, most if not all of the people here should know about certain powerful factions in certain societies purposefully working to "usher in the end times." Some do it for religious reasons, others, like certain billionaires for other reasons. Naomi Klein goes in detail on this topic.

Blig blug, now I remember that the Anarcho primitivist authors were presenting civilization as the root of all evil. Obviously this is not true, but I believe global empire constitutes quite a weight a on people, blocking and preventing them to live natural and empowered lives. This does not mean a life without technology. İt's a very complex topic and I don't know if I can get into the details.

 

[blig-blug]

I just go through life doing what is right for me, end of story. What will happen will happen. I repeat, our inner state is of vital importance and determines the quality of our lives as well as how we see the world.

Not only that, but our inner state also influences those around us. This is very important in a context where more and more of what influences us is highly impersonal. I think one of the best things we can do is to create around us a space as human as possible.

As an example (something very little), nowadays it seems that many people just don't reach out to their friends. Or at least many of my friends don't reach out to me, but I think it's more general. What I do is reaching out to them instead, even if it has to be me the one to do it always. Letting them know that I won't react negatively because of this. Same with listening to them and their issues, many friends have expressed relief that they could talk to me without stepping on eggshells.

So I think this is the kind of thing we can do. Even if it's not globally impactful, it can be impactful and meaningful for those around you. I'm sure that's what many of us are doing already.

Blig blug, now I remember that the Anarcho primitivist authors were presenting civilization as the root of all evil. Obviously this is not true, but I believe global empire presents quite a on people, blocking and preventing them to live natural and empowered lives.

I'm actually close to many of their ideas, but I think the mistake they make of overstating their case and not talking about tradeoffs is very common, and that's why I pointed it out.

This does not mean a life without technology. İt's a very complex topic and I don't know if I can get into the details.

Yes, agreed to both points. There will be more occasions of going deeper on the topic of technology and technique.

 

[fink]

We have no realistic idea how hellish humanity would be if there were no consequences for any action. That state is so far in the past, we dont even have accurate history.

We can get a glimpse today through virtual societies. There are an endless number of online video games where killing, stealing, tricking, betraying and subjugating have no real world consequences.

The kind, creative and artistic players end up frustrated and the heartless, brutal, dominating ones are rewarded.

There is nothing beautiful about human behaviour without first wielding the threat of barbaric consequence at anything that would disrupt that beauty.

That is where we are today. That is civilisation. Every sculpture, every melodic composition, every act of charity and kindness is defended by the most brutal capability to inflict consequence.

Beauty, material or spiritual, is not necessary for survival. It is a luxury earned through complete dominance of the environment.

The humans that control the world are not to blame for how they rule us.

We are to blame. If the people of the world behaved better as a collective..... life would be so much easier for us.

It is a shame, that those few of us that are creative, kind and mindful often do not have the liberty to live accordingly.

But we didn't earn it. Beauty is earned.

The easiest way to dominate your environment in today's world is to have a lot of money.

This is the ultimate catch 22. In order to get the life you want you need to compete at the very game that you are trying to escape.

 

[blig-blug]

We have no realistic idea how hellish humanity would be if there were no consequences for any action. That state is so far in the past, we dont even have accurate history.

That state seems to only have existed in the imagination of 18th century philosophers and movie directors. In fact smaller communities are often criticized for constraining the individual too much.

I think reality is and has been much more in line with what @CosmicRiver pointed out: most people enjoy contributing to their community. The problem is that said communities have gone from a material and biological reality of daily life to an abstraction. When all your neighbors are strangers, fear appears.

 

[northape]

This is a good one for anyone interested in our animal ancestry.
You can see how they don't go completely crazy, but instead have a complex social structure.