Freedom & Modern Systems of Control

[Tumupasa]

I think we can be hopeful. Because I think that most of the power that the current system of things has on people comes from the fact that they can't imagine anything different.

Yes! this is why talking about it shouldn't be taboo, a lots of people still react hardly to these conversations, not because they are dumb, racists, activists or egoists, but because they're thinking inside a frame that they see as the only one available to us. We have to learn how to listen and how talk to each others.

I often try to remind myself that birds and animals know nothing about countries, borders, or the economy. They just live on this planet and deal with us as they would with any other animal. Why create a virtual reality when we are already in one? Trying to shift my perspective away from the mainstream narrative helps.

@northape this thread is soooooo important, thank you! And i'm glad to see that people here can interact without going into politics, because i think it's the essence of what is being said here, it's not about partisanship.

Here are two books that really helped me to make sense of what we are living.

 

[northape]

@northape this thread is soooooo important, thank you! And i'm glad to see that people here can interact without going into politics, because i think it's the essence of what is being said here, it's not about partisanship.

This topic is very sensitive for me, and I love to hear how others cope. I see that many have very similar views and hardships. It gives me strength to persevere myself.
Politics and activism usually lead nowhere and don't help an individual. We all need to come to terms with recent developments inside ourselves. It's good that so many answered with some constructive advice. It's not just me venting my frustrations

Here are two books that really helped me to make sense of what we are living.

I'm only familiar with LSD and the Mind of the Universe. It's an awesome book that actually gives hope for this life and humanity.
It's so similar to a medicine ceremony: we are heading for a better future, but a period of purification is a must.
Chris went into Vajrayana and spiritual practice in the last part of it. I think that's an important aspect of any journey - some kind of spiritual practice.
We need to embody our view and understanding. Doing some practice each day creates a fertile ground for spiritual seeds to grow.

 

[Tumupasa]

I'm only familiar with LSD and the Mind of the Universe.

This is a beautiful book. The Bigger Picture is an essay by Alexander Beiner, he was a participant of the first DMTx trials, in this book he shares some of his expereinces during the trials but also try to make sense of our societal crisis and so on. His views wouldn't be out of place in this thread

It's so similar to a medicine ceremony: we are heading for a better future, but a period of purification is a must.

And that's probably why we can, on this forum, understand this. But trying to communicate this idea to people unfamiliar with the concept of suffering for getting out of this mess is a very hard thing.

Chris went into Vajrayana and spiritual practice in the last part of it. I think that's an important aspect of any journey - some kind of spiritual practice.
We need to embody our view and understanding. Doing some practice each day creates a fertile ground for spiritual seeds to grow.

I'm still at the stage of "yes, i have to do meditate" but still don't have the discipline.

 

[CosmicRiver]

I'm not in a position to seek my tribe right now, apart from my online interactions. However, it is my plan for the time when I am free to do so. I'll try to travel and find a little spot with open-minded people who appreciate life. If this endeavor brings no result, I'll find a nice natural spot to stay until my days are finished.

All the best to all of you. I hope you find your tribe and peace of mind

it's hard to find "our tribe". But if you try to connect even to people who don't seem to be of your tribe you'll often find many of those qualities. Connection is multi-faceted. It's not a matter on how much we relate to someone in an absolute way, but it's a matter of creating moments of connection and try to make it stable. Even in this polarized moment I think it won't be hard to find people who share even one of your values.
I can't live from the earth unfortunately, i mean i'm not expecting an apocalyptic collapse after which only survivalists will thrive. (It may even not be the case. It could be a transition.) I would probably be doomed because I don't even think it's possible to forage during the winter where i live and i don't want to prepare to live off hoarded canned food.
Like you i watch the animals and realize that freedom is primarily in the mind, and in having simple, basic needs, and being together.
Honestly you seem to have witnessed much more than I did when I wasn't even born, so I hope i'm not just being naive. But i found much more connection in shared values than i thought, even if it's not always stable because most people are in the mainstream but my advice is not to feel disconnected because that may not necessarily be true and it makes you feel more powerless.

Also i went OT even if i go the impression that you like OTs too. Anyway i don't think e2e encryption is going anywhere. Luckily for us we have foundations that fight this battle and lobby and they are backed by tech corporations themselves for some reason, maybe to avoid being held accountable for what people write and then do.

 

[dithyramb]

The tribe question has always puzzled me. In the traditional sense, our tribe is no other than our family, but in this modern reality it seems only a minority of us want to be close to or even be associated with our families. Perhaps the older generations are of a different culture/mentality and that creates a too large gap to overcome. But even within our own generation, it seems in general we are not able to form sustainable families. The extreme individualistic culture of our time plays a role in this.

There has been a trendy language among "plant medicine" people, for people who join the same ceremonies to call each other family or tribe. It may feel good, but it's illusory and everybody goes back to their separate individual realities after the ceremony ends.

I don't know if the tribe phenomenon can ever be revived in the foreseeable future. Communal life seems so antithetical to the current reality.

But it is in our genes, it is what we are. Deep and healthy long term relationships is what makes healthy happy long life. There is no meaning in life that can be found elsewhere.

 

[northape]

I'm still at the stage of "yes, i have to do meditate" but still don't have the discipline.

We're in the same boat then. My practice is sporadic, but I try to do something each day to remember what's what.
I feel it's not about meditation really. We're working on being present.

it's hard to find "our tribe". But if you try to connect even to people who don't seem to be of your tribe you'll often find many of those qualities. Connection is multi-faceted.

I agree, we work with what we have.

I can't live from the earth unfortunately, i mean i'm not expecting an apocalyptic collapse after which only survivalists will thrive. (It may even not be the case. It could be a transition.)

I think you can, but you've never had an opportunity to feel confident in your ability. Modern governments try to disempower us and never give us the opportunity to be self-sufficient. The end would most likely be a transition. We are already there, imo.

Like you i watch the animals and realize that freedom is primarily in the mind, and in having simple, basic needs, and being together.
Honestly you seem to have witnessed much more than I did when I wasn't even born, so I hope i'm not just being naive.

It's all relative. I believe we live many lives, and our maturity depends on it. This body just needs time to grow into the incarnation. After about 30 years, we are back where we left off in our last life. You're far from naive; everything you say is right on point.

Also i went OT even if i go the impression that you like OTs too.

I like tangents, but you're right on topic. I gave an example of Chat Control to get some ideas about our situation and my fears.

@dithyramb I feel like tribes will make a comeback when shit hits the fan for real. The next century will be very different from this one. When more people see the incompetence of big governing structures and millions die from egotism/individualism, some traditional ways of life will rise from the ashes like a phoenix.

 

[Jamie01]

I dunno where peoples optimism comes from. I mostly think we are just screwed at this point if your not already rich enough to join the elites in a bunker somewhere when it all goes to crap.

It’s likely there’s a group of elites planning a breakaway civilization and your not part of it.

 

[fink]

If things do collapse, I'll be ready to fight like an animal. The reality of societal collapse will be more brutal than any of us can imagine. Survivors who desire peace will need to be ready to kill.

 

[Tumupasa]

I dunno where peoples optimism comes from. I mostly think we are just screwed at this point if your not already rich enough to join the elites in a bunker somewhere when it all goes to crap.

It’s likely there’s a group of elites planning a breakaway civilization and your not part of it.

That's also what I'm feeling, what makes me optimist is that eventually, once we 'll pass through all the suffering that it can take to overcome such a situation, everything will be ok, even though it involves pain and loss. That's just a gut feeling though

 

[Jamie01]

Yes it would be extremely brutal imo. It’s not something I think most people could survive.

 

[northape]

If things do collapse, I'll be ready to fight like an animal. The reality of societal collapse will be more brutal than any of us can imagine. Survivors who desire peace will need to be ready to kill.

I think if you find yourself deep in a forest/jungle or high on mountains, there will be a period of relative peace.
In the 50s, Tibetans came down knowing almost nothing about the world wars or the world order. Some places are just that isolated.

 

[blig-blug]

No need for any brutality (not saying that it wouldn't happen), just the collapse of industrial agriculture would kill hundreds of millions, eventually thousands of millions. The only situation where this wouldn't happen (barring an ordered, consensual dismantling of the system) is if populations decline naturally enough before human beings become completely domesticated and before a collapse happens.

 

[CosmicRiver]

It all depends on how resources are allocated. I'm not expert enough. Wouldn't it be possible for example for industrial or semi-industrial agriculture to survive even with a different world system? If a very large part of what gets produced is useless, wouldn't society be able to survive using a lesser amount of resources? with a different lifestyle obviously but there would be no choice at that point

 

[Jamie01]

I live in rural fishing town on an island as it is…deep in the rainforest I have cougars literally walking through my yard at night. We go 3 days without water/power etc a few times a year because we are nearly off the municipal grid…That’s already hard enough after a few days.. society at large would loose it.

I’d have to go to the Yukon or Alaska at this point to really get away.

I mean… get the he’ll away from the cities asap anyway. I still have to commute into a small city for work but once I figure that out I’m done driving into the city at all. No need for it. I can throw a stone to the ocean from my driveway so we can fish and I’m getting into snorkeling for some crab etc but it’s like a novelty. My wife and I harvest a lot of food but really you need to learn to hunt some large animals if you wanna survive on your own imo. I already buy all my meat from a local farmer etc but that’s $$$.

I dunno how to escape it but I’ve gotten some distance from some of it.

 

[dithyramb]

I was a John Zerzan and Derrick Jensen fan in my twenties. The collapse was around the corner. Peak oil if nothing else was going to end global civilization. But Derrick was saying that the longer civilization lives, the more irreparable damage it does to the Earth (prove it wrong if you can), and so we were ethically obligated to bring it down ourselves as soon as we can. Learning to use a bow and arrow was among the most urgent skills to be acquired.

My following favorite author was Bill Plotkin which shifted my focus inside and on Spirit. It was the chapter on ritual use of hallucinogenic plants as a way for soul encounter which inspired me, a fresh university graduate who had never done any drugs, with an almost non existent experience even with alcohol up to that point, to pursue a local Ayahuasca analogue.

Life is driving itself for me at this point as a mid aged father. I have no capacity to devise plans/projects to survive global societal collapse. All I have is my own very specific life purpose which I am giving all I have. It does involve having my own land/house at a higher elevation in a preserved natural environment which I hope is somewhat soon.

It's true that you can live significantly ignorant of world events when you live in isolated places like mountains. But to be unaffected would require a functional closed civilization of your own, i.e. a self sustaining tribe/community at the very least.

I see no value in trying to survive just by yourself. Life is temporary by default. If what we are discussing here is how to preserve ourselves as isolated meat suits or perhaps transhumans when shit hits the fan, I am in the wrong discussion.

It is actually a known fact that world elite are building bunkers to survive the collapse. Let them live in their underworld zombie realms. We see the world as we are inside. The Mars project is partly for serving this projection too. For me it's all illusions and a serious spiritual disease.

 

[dithyramb]

BTW, I am very much into ancient civilizations, and I actually believe Graham Hancock's basic suggestion, that there were complex civilizations before a global catastrophe around 12000 years ago. Global catastrophe and civilizational collapse may not be something alien to our species. It may even be necessary, in other words, sadly the only way to stop our illusory destructive course when we advance too much in technology.

 

[Jamie01]

There used to be a small community nearby started by US ex pats who fled the draft, and other locals who wanted to be free.

It lasted for a good while. No roads in or out etc..they had build cabins and had kids even who were there until teenagers.

Eventually the gov wanted to make a park, and it probly looks bad to have a place people can just disappear to…for some legit reasons I guess…

When people refused to leave it went on for a while until the gov just burnt everything down and made a big road and parking lot and park with signs and trails and campsites.

Now there is a plaque in memory of the community that once lived there.

Lol you gotta go so far away that people won’t find it. I’m

 

[blig-blug]

It all depends on how resources are allocated. I'm not expert enough. Wouldn't it be possible for example for industrial or semi-industrial agriculture to survive even with a different world system? If a very large part of what gets produced is useless, wouldn't society be able to survive using a lesser amount of resources? with a different lifestyle obviously but there would be no choice at that point

The problem with industrial agriculture is that it's based on mass fertilizer use and mechanization. The plants are mostly an intermediate step to convert energy in oil into energy in food. It's not possible to do that without the rest of the techno industrial system.

And world population is so high that even consuming less resources industrial agriculture would still be necessary to produce enough food.

With a much smaller population yes, it's perfectly possible to survive without industrial agriculture, and even with agriculture at all. Humans have done so for hundreds of thousands of years.

 

[blig-blug]

John Zerzan

The problem with Zerzan and other primitivist anarchists is that they have an utopian and romantic view of primitive societies. They can't stand the fact that human beings would still suffer, have conflicts, and act against each other. To me it's not about every social problem and injustice disappearing, but about the ability to live a fully human life. And that seems to always imply a degree of suffering and conflict. To me it's not a problem, and I wish it were more common to acknowledge the downsides and negative aspects of a given social form. Usually when someone defends a specific social form it's presented as the end of every problem.

I see no value in trying to survive just by yourself

I agree, and that's why I don't see any realistic path forward.

 

[dithyramb]

I didn't have the impression that those authors presented primitive societies as utopias. Utopia is an artificial construct imv. There can be relatively healthier societies but a perception of perfection as there being no suffering or hardships involved goes against the nature of life.

My own current view is that this is not simply a question of being primitive vs being industrial. There seem to be very strange, seemingly messed up primitive societies as well, keeping in mind that it is not our job to judge or correct self contained cultures. What I do hold against modern/industrial civilization, is that going on mass scale seems to destroy balance in all dimensions. It is difficult to put into words without writing a book or creating a presentation about it.